Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
Hello, in my opinion the IPv4 Category Calculation in the provided XLSX file is too strict. Maybe doubling the Max Assignments values would be more appropriate, i.e.: Extra Small 1024 Small 4096 Medium 16384 Large 65536 Extra Large > instead of: Extra Small 512 Small 2048 Medium 8192 Large 32768 Extra Large > Best regards, Martin Volf Dragon Internet a.s. AS15614 On Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Simon Jan Haytink wrote:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023.
In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers.
The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership.
One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members.
To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as:
Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model.
You can download the Excel sheet from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/mem...
We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years.
I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss@ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.
The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations
I look forward to your input.
Kind regards,
Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC
Summary
7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023
References
Open House and Survey Results https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-cha...
Presentation at General Meeting https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentation...
Hello I also believe that the IP calculation would need to be reviewed. As it stands all long standing LIRs will be classified as large ( they got a /19 back in the day and picked up a /22 at run out). Our company would in the extra-large category yet we are worlds of magnitude away from an incumbent or "extra large provider" that has millions of customers and IPs It would be very useful to be able to look at the overall picture and not just what changes for our lir. There have many good points made regarding sizing of actual members data, services offered/used and overall budget etc. To make any suggestions or recommendations regarding the charging scheme is really impossible without data and a better understanding of impacts. With a excel sheet like this we can only say model 1 or 2 costs me less so that is good thing.. I really do not believe that this should be the scope of the consultation. Brian
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Simon Jan Haytink wrote:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023.
In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers.
The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership.
One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members.
To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as:
Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model.
You can download the Excel sheet from:
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ripe.net%2fpar ticipate%2fmail%2fmember-and-community-consultations%2fmember- calculat or-charging-scheme-2024.xlsx&c=E,1,fuqRAslHuDe2TKrJFG9fgZfN- 5W5J7rnNLA kK_q-GQ9dVUnL5x2ruUBe6Gw0MphgX5lM1aS_R- nlwCYJe7t9wFJ5p51ezgQsbymQlfHp& typo=1
We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years.
I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss@ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.
The consultation will also be recorded and available from:
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ripe.net%2fpar ticipate%2fmail%2fmember-and-community- consultations&c=E,1,hurEhE1VuLN q- x7Kj4Y8yQAhGLENZjxk8DRPZWsSVnsP88EDPXX4T6y6aM7qTDV1U5zBqXLu5uYE oQ1SJ 89GScs675GDzxwQq0x_cnMMVHzoG-4BFYhm&typo=1
I look forward to your input.
Kind regards,
Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC
Summary
7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023
References
Open House and Survey Results
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ripe.net%2fpar ticipate%2fmeetings%2fopen-house%2fripe-ncc-open-house-charging- scheme - principles&c=E,1,cOMej2ZAmWHqlWewA0Xx9LL4gFPUAYRFFo2xN6XqptwTUOT 3UROy ww_FAG7UZHGzLSSqKv_F- weWtQgZA0QA4B5NLC2wnAlqIBDaNl0fsSjvmOEB5XJYCuwX_w ,,&typo=1
Presentation at General Meeting
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.ripe.net%2fpartic ipate%2fmeetings%2fgm%2fmeetings%2fmay-2021%2fdocumentation-and- archive%2fripe-ncc-charging-scheme- discussion.pdf&c=E,1,XrdwIEQ2RaPGYN684zPtuq08oeGXrX9k5oqecppmiigby0F DoBgFliMhbJghPgg4z4o9gj9RsYkVszMsXaqeIQ8Ycy7ZhW3qM6K3B5EENg,,&typo =1
Hi Everyone, I agree with this point, the IPv4 calculation in model 2 is rough on small companies. We have to remember that small & early ISPs received decently big pools a long time ago, which would impact their yearly fees, by 4 times in the case I measured. For instance, if you got a /19 around 2000, and were eligble for a last /22, you're already in the " Large " group, which is quite hard. So I'm totally with Martin on that one. Also, I think that the model 1 pricing is rough, if adopted, I think we will see a lot of people (individuals with LIR for instance), dropping their voting right to move their ressources to an LIR. We would have a huge amount of income from transfers the first years, and then we would loose the diversity of votes for small entities. In any case, I fear that only " the rich " will be able to vote and keep their ressources going on. Adopting any of these new charging schem would cause a lot of companies to move their ressources to optimize their fees. I'm not sure that's a useful move, as it would cause a lot of administrative troubles and load on the NCC. Kind regards, Will van Gulik Nimag Networks On Tue, Mar 07, 2023 at 12:16:26PM +0100, Martin Volf wrote:
Hello,
in my opinion the IPv4 Category Calculation in the provided XLSX file is too strict. Maybe doubling the Max Assignments values would be more appropriate, i.e.:
Extra Small 1024 Small 4096 Medium 16384 Large 65536 Extra Large >
instead of:
Extra Small 512 Small 2048 Medium 8192 Large 32768 Extra Large >
Best regards,
Martin Volf Dragon Internet a.s. AS15614
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Simon Jan Haytink wrote:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023.
In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers.
The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership.
One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members.
To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as:
Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model.
You can download the Excel sheet from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/mem...
We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years.
I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss@ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.
The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations
I look forward to your input.
Kind regards,
Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC
Summary
7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023
References
Open House and Survey Results https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-cha...
Presentation at General Meeting https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentation...
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/will%40nimag.net
Hello, I agree that the charging scheme needs to be reviewed, and I believe it should be based on a few factors 1) The type of the institution (educational, profitable, non-profitable, etc..). 2) The number of /24's owned by the organization. I suppose that profitable organizations can pay more to support the RIPE NCC operations, as they benefit more from the IP addresses, while the educational & non-profitable organizations don't get monetary benefits from using the IP addresses owned by them (I work in a profitable organization btw). Best regards, Ammar Talal Abdullah Al-Masaabi Network & Security Team Leader [cid:image075ea3.JPG@0678c1fd.498e899b] +9671-752-1801 [cid:image1495f4.JPG@c4a14f85.49a4e521] +967777070772 [cid:imagee6f9a0.JPG@24922d85.4b932821] +9671-752-1403 [cid:image2bc7f2.JPG@d5a3e76c.45a653e1] a.talal@teleyemen.com.ye<mailto:a.talal@teleyemen.com.ye> [cid:imageb17986.JPG@bbef70f5.44b46c97]<https://www.teleyemen.com.ye> Disclaimer: This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the intended recipients. If you are not an intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify us immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore we do not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Will van Gulik Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 5:55 PM To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi Everyone, I agree with this point, the IPv4 calculation in model 2 is rough on small companies. We have to remember that small & early ISPs received decently big pools a long time ago, which would impact their yearly fees, by 4 times in the case I measured. For instance, if you got a /19 around 2000, and were eligble for a last /22, you're already in the " Large " group, which is quite hard. So I'm totally with Martin on that one. Also, I think that the model 1 pricing is rough, if adopted, I think we will see a lot of people (individuals with LIR for instance), dropping their voting right to move their ressources to an LIR. We would have a huge amount of income from transfers the first years, and then we would loose the diversity of votes for small entities. In any case, I fear that only " the rich " will be able to vote and keep their ressources going on. Adopting any of these new charging schem would cause a lot of companies to move their ressources to optimize their fees. I'm not sure that's a useful move, as it would cause a lot of administrative troubles and load on the NCC. Kind regards, Will van Gulik Nimag Networks On Tue, Mar 07, 2023 at 12:16:26PM +0100, Martin Volf wrote:
Hello,
in my opinion the IPv4 Category Calculation in the provided XLSX file is too strict. Maybe doubling the Max Assignments values would be more appropriate, i.e.:
Extra Small1024 Small4096 Medium16384 Large65536 Extra Large>
instead of:
Extra Small512 Small2048 Medium8192 Large32768 Extra Large>
Best regards,
Martin Volf Dragon Internet a.s. AS15614
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Simon Jan Haytink wrote:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023.
In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers.
The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership.
One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members.
To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as:
Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model.
You can download the Excel sheet from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultati ons/member-calculator-charging-scheme-2024.xlsx
We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years.
I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss@ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.
The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultati ons
I look forward to your input.
Kind regards,
Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC
Summary
7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023
References
Open House and Survey Results https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-ho use-charging-scheme-principles
Presentation at General Meeting https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/docume ntation-and-archive/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-discussion.pdf
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/will%40nimag.net
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/a.talal%40teleyemen.c...
The nonprofit and educational organisations still need to pay for water, electricity,etc. Even if they are nonprofit they still can provide ISP services. So it should be normal operational cost, which should be considered in budget. So from my side, as long as entity consumes resources (which are shortage off especially), they should pay normal price. Pobierz aplikację BlueMail dla systemu Android W dniu 9 mar 2023, 14:16, o 14:16, użytkownik Ammar Talal Abdullah Al-Masaabi via members-discuss <members-discuss@ripe.net> napisał:
Hello,
I agree that the charging scheme needs to be reviewed, and I believe it should be based on a few factors
1) The type of the institution (educational, profitable, non-profitable, etc..). 2) The number of /24's owned by the organization.
I suppose that profitable organizations can pay more to support the RIPE NCC operations, as they benefit more from the IP addresses, while the educational & non-profitable organizations don't get monetary benefits from using the IP addresses owned by them (I work in a profitable organization btw).
Best regards,
Ammar Talal Abdullah Al-Masaabi Network & Security Team Leader [cid:image075ea3.JPG@0678c1fd.498e899b] +9671-752-1801 [cid:image1495f4.JPG@c4a14f85.49a4e521] +967777070772 [cid:imagee6f9a0.JPG@24922d85.4b932821] +9671-752-1403 [cid:image2bc7f2.JPG@d5a3e76c.45a653e1] a.talal@teleyemen.com.ye<mailto:a.talal@teleyemen.com.ye>
[cid:imageb17986.JPG@bbef70f5.44b46c97]<https://www.teleyemen.com.ye>
Disclaimer: This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the intended recipients. If you are not an intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify us immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore we do not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Will van Gulik Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 5:55 PM To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
Hi Everyone,
I agree with this point, the IPv4 calculation in model 2 is rough on small companies. We have to remember that small & early ISPs received decently big pools a long time ago, which would impact their yearly fees, by 4 times in the case I measured. For instance, if you got a /19 around 2000, and were eligble for a last /22, you're already in the " Large " group, which is quite hard. So I'm totally with Martin on that one.
Also, I think that the model 1 pricing is rough, if adopted, I think we will see a lot of people (individuals with LIR for instance), dropping their voting right to move their ressources to an LIR. We would have a huge amount of income from transfers the first years, and then we would loose the diversity of votes for small entities.
In any case, I fear that only " the rich " will be able to vote and keep their ressources going on. Adopting any of these new charging schem would cause a lot of companies to move their ressources to optimize their fees. I'm not sure that's a useful move, as it would cause a lot of administrative troubles and load on the NCC.
Kind regards,
Will van Gulik Nimag Networks
On Tue, Mar 07, 2023 at 12:16:26PM +0100, Martin Volf wrote:
Hello,
in my opinion the IPv4 Category Calculation in the provided XLSX file is too strict. Maybe doubling the Max Assignments values would be more appropriate, i.e.:
Extra Small1024 Small4096 Medium16384 Large65536 Extra Large>
instead of:
Extra Small512 Small2048 Medium8192 Large32768 Extra Large>
Best regards,
Martin Volf Dragon Internet a.s. AS15614
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Simon Jan Haytink wrote:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023.
In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers.
The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership.
One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members.
To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as:
Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model.
You can download the Excel sheet from:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultati
ons/member-calculator-charging-scheme-2024.xlsx
We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years.
I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss@ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.
The consultation will also be recorded and available from:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultati
ons
I look forward to your input.
Kind regards,
Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC
Summary
7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023
References
Open House and Survey Results
https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-ho
use-charging-scheme-principles
Presentation at General Meeting
https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/docume
ntation-and-archive/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-discussion.pdf
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On 08.03.2023 16:54, Will van Gulik wrote:
Hi Everyone,
I agree with this point, the IPv4 calculation in model 2 is rough on small companies. We have to remember that small & early ISPs received decently big pools a long time ago, which would impact their yearly fees, by 4 times in the case I measured. For instance, if you got a /19 around 2000, and were eligble for a last /22, you're already in the " Large " group, which is quite hard. So I'm totally with Martin on that one.
UA.VISTI support that, as we are in the same situation. We are LIR since 1997. At that time, with our single /19 we counted as 'SMALL'. Much later we received 'the last' /22, now our allocations are 100% used. While more traditional 'model 1' leads us to 1,6 yearly fee increase, 'model 2' leads to 3 times increase. In case 'Model 2' wins the run, we ask to revise LIR categories as offered by Martin Volf (Dragon Internet a.s. ): "...in my opinion the IPv4 Category Calculation in the provided XLSX file is too strict. Maybe doubling the Max Assignments values would be more appropriate, i.e.: Extra Small 1024 Small 4096 Medium 16384 Large 65536 Extra Large > instead of: Extra Small 512 Small 2048 Medium 8192 Large 32768 Extra Large >.." Best regards, Vitalii Zubok ua.visti AS8258
Also, I think that the model 1 pricing is rough, if adopted, I think we will see a lot of people (individuals with LIR for instance), dropping their voting right to move their ressources to an LIR. We would have a huge amount of income from transfers the first years, and then we would loose the diversity of votes for small entities. In any case, I fear that only " the rich " will be able to vote and keep their ressources going on. Adopting any of these new charging schem would cause a lot of companies to move their ressources to optimize their fees. I'm not sure that's a useful move, as it would cause a lot of administrative troubles and load on the NCC.
Kind regards,
Will van Gulik Nimag Networks
On Tue, Mar 07, 2023 at 12:16:26PM +0100, Martin Volf wrote:
Hello,
in my opinion the IPv4 Category Calculation in the provided XLSX file is too strict. Maybe doubling the Max Assignments values would be more appropriate, i.e.:
Extra Small 1024 Small 4096 Medium 16384 Large 65536 Extra Large >
instead of:
Extra Small 512 Small 2048 Medium 8192 Large 32768 Extra Large >
Best regards,
Martin Volf Dragon Internet a.s. AS15614
On Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Simon Jan Haytink wrote:
Dear RIPE NCC members,
We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023.
In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers.
The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership.
One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members.
To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as:
Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model.
You can download the Excel sheet from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/mem...
We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years.
I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss@ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.
The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations
I look forward to your input.
Kind regards,
Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC
Summary
7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023
References
Open House and Survey Results https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-cha...
Presentation at General Meeting https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentation...
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/will%40nimag.net
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The direct costs for allocated/assigned resources, even when allowing for significant overhead (indirect costs) in corp it, admin, etc., would be significantly lower than what RIPE NCC would want its budget to be. Kaj From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of ripe-ncc-members-discuss@itns.md Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 12:26 To: Will van Gulik <will@nimag.net>; members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 hi there, Дet's not reinvent the wheel. The only fair method of calculating membership dues is to determine the annual cost of the allocated/assigned resources. For now, the charge should be only for ipv4 and calculated per /24. best, Sergiu 08.03.2023, 19:42, "Will van Gulik" <will@nimag.net<mailto:will@nimag.net>>: Hi Everyone, I agree with this point, the IPv4 calculation in model 2 is rough on small companies. We have to remember that small & early ISPs received decently big pools a long time ago, which would impact their yearly fees, by 4 times in the case I measured. For instance, if you got a /19 around 2000, and were eligble for a last /22, you're already in the " Large " group, which is quite hard. So I'm totally with Martin on that one. Also, I think that the model 1 pricing is rough, if adopted, I think we will see a lot of people (individuals with LIR for instance), dropping their voting right to move their ressources to an LIR. We would have a huge amount of income from transfers the first years, and then we would loose the diversity of votes for small entities. In any case, I fear that only " the rich " will be able to vote and keep their ressources going on. Adopting any of these new charging schem would cause a lot of companies to move their ressources to optimize their fees. I'm not sure that's a useful move, as it would cause a lot of administrative troubles and load on the NCC. Kind regards, Will van Gulik Nimag Networks On Tue, Mar 07, 2023 at 12:16:26PM +0100, Martin Volf wrote: Hello, in my opinion the IPv4 Category Calculation in the provided XLSX file is too strict. Maybe doubling the Max Assignments values would be more appropriate, i.e.: Extra Small 1024 Small 4096 Medium 16384 Large 65536 Extra Large > instead of: Extra Small 512 Small 2048 Medium 8192 Large 32768 Extra Large > Best regards, Martin Volf Dragon Internet a.s. AS15614 On Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Simon Jan Haytink wrote: Dear RIPE NCC members, We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC's members. To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: Model 1: A "one-LIR, one-fee" model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. You can download the Excel sheet from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/member-calculator-charging-scheme-2024.xlsx<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmail%2Fmember-and-community-consultations%2Fmember-calculator-charging-scheme-2024.xlsx&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760432972%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yJ8wiUboGncjV2fba2ChBOXM2xj%2BVZKytrsVplCu2JA%3D&reserved=0> We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmail%2Fmember-and-community-consultations&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760432972%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hgVtmeWpQRVeo37X%2Fr8y6eKJu%2B6YM%2FSbjZfjmrp%2Fj3E%3D&reserved=0> I look forward to your input. Kind regards, Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC Summary 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 References Open House and Survey Results https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-charging-scheme-principles<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmeetings%2Fopen-house%2Fripe-ncc-open-house-charging-scheme-principles&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760432972%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Q%2FJ6Ktf%2Bfuj5nMnIKyd6OgonONLCK%2FvaL5wm3a1JeWg%3D&reserved=0> Presentation at General Meeting https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentation-and-archive/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-discussion.pdf<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmeetings%2Fgm%2Fmeetings%2Fmay-2021%2Fdocumentation-and-archive%2Fripe-ncc-charging-scheme-discussion.pdf&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760432972%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4kZ%2BTs0RC9HwGPcCZtH2GcMQehC6gNeUXZ4u%2BeylxF8%3D&reserved=0> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760432972%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zbBxVijWTowPr4%2BX3pTJW3kmeOgShu89v8EH0MgO27Y%3D&reserved=0> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/will%40nimag.net<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Fwill%2540nimag.net&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760589206%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wooQQtp3aegpnn%2B3LGTQ4whDu58V%2BnOAMZkI55gEHnk%3D&reserved=0> _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760589206%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ArlUgdf2tjHpZ9y4dcVa60dRV5S87L%2F37WHLeThzRDI%3D&reserved=0> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ripe-ncc-members-discuss%40itns.md<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Fripe-ncc-members-discuss%2540itns.md&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cef059efc6b5f402525a308db20a42f6b%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139661760589206%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sjYwj%2FqltyhAXZEYS1FPuM%2Fu1Dq%2Bbrepilpgjn%2FmCz0%3D&reserved=0>
participants (8)
-
Ammar Talal Abdullah Al-Masaabi -
Brian Turnbow -
Kaj Niemi -
Martin Volf -
Piotr Karwowski -
ripe-ncc-members-discuss＠itns.md -
Vitalii Zubok -
Will van Gulik