A frank discussion
Dear RIPE community and RIPE NCC members: You may be well aware of RIPE NCC management's refusal to acknowledge the serious governance issue in AFRINIC and the fact that the management keeps involving itself closely with governmental bodies, ever since the miscarriage of their NRO letter to make AFRINIC a specialized agency of United Nations. Recently, during the ITU Conference, it is said that the RIPE NCC management team seemed to have approached the American government and European Union government as a means to interfere with the ongoing matters. As someone who has had engaged closely with the community for many years, I believe it is of utmost importance for the community to be aware of the seriousness of the matter, and a frank discussion is more than necessary in the upcoming RIPE meeting. For RIPE NCC to make their case of seems deep interference with government and for me to exchange with the community any views and differences. My dispute with AFRINIC (despite it is sub-judice), is essentially a "policy dispute" between members of RIR and the RIR management. Court pocceding is also part of bottom up community driven process when the dispute can not be resolved amicably. However, NRO's request to make RIR an ITU-like body, and RIPE NCC's apparent consistent engagement with government officials to interfere in the matter, I think it is high time for the community to be aware of, discuss and decide whether such involvement is proper in a community driven, bottom-up registry who has been independent of governmental influences for more than three decades I have submitted an lighting talk for the plenary and got rejected. I have attached the rejection letter here for your perusal. It is disconcerting to me because the matter is of utmost urgency and importance for the community and the RIR system. The purpose of the current letter is to re-state my intention of an open, frank, heart-to-heart discussion with the community. I will appreciate if any working group chair can pick up the subject and do an BoF during the working group sessions. I believe the graveness of the issue requires such a discussion - transparency and accountability are the two core values of this community. Here is the letter I received: Dear Lu Heng, We regret to inform you that your Lightning Talk submission for RIPE 85 titled 'A difficult reality' has not been accepted into the Plenary session.
From the PC's perspective the presentation does not fit the RIPE plenary. If your submission refers to the role of the RIPE NCC, then we suggest the NCC Services WG as the appropriate venue to start this discussion.
If you want to have a discussion about the RIPE community as a policy making body, then we feel the RIPE community plenary is the right place to go. Thank you, Franziska Lichtblau on behalf of the Programme Committee My reply: Hi The presentation is about ripe community’s view on current actions taken by NRO and RIPE NCC. The matter is extremely serious and I believe ripe community should be aware. And yes, this is about where boundaries of ripe community policy making and how many people should be aware and participate community. I feel current ripe community is not truly inclusive enough for every internet user aware. I think best we have a frank discussion and inform the community, rather have me go to some channels of communication, and community might feel not informed and asking why. And THIS IS REALLY NOT ABOUT NCC SERVICE. If PC have future questions welcome to send me zoom link to discuss. Lu Heng Chief Executive Officer LARUS Limited Email H.Lu@LARUS.netmailto:a.yan@outsideheaven.com Office tel:+852+29888918 Address A3, 11/F, TML Tower, Tsuen Wan, N.T, Hong Kong SAR Website: LARUS.net This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
Dear all, Lu says that it is “high time for the community to be aware of, discuss and decide whether such involvement is proper in a community-driven, bottom-up registry who has been independent of governmental influences for more than three decades.” I want to make clear that this statement does not reflect reality and that I also welcome input from our membership and community on this matter. I understand from his emails that Lu sees our interactions with governments as potentially leading to a change in the nature of the RIR system that may weaken our long-established community-based governance processes. In fact, the opposite is true. We have made serious efforts over the years to explain why we interact with governments, and we have been very open about those interactions. I will go further and say that our long-standing and productive relationships with governments throughout our service region have been an important factor in maintaining the current RIR system and mitigating threats to that system. The message we have always put to governments is that the current system works well and that it should not be changed. We also make it clear that we welcome participation from governments as key Internet stakeholders. So while Lu might see our government interactions as something to be suspicious of, I take a different view. If we do not involve governments in our community, they will be more likely to act without reference to the experience and knowledge of our community. We are also open about our interactions with both governments and the ITU. Just last week, we published a detailed article about our work at the recent ITU Plenipotentiary in Romania[1]. And for the sake of clarity, I will confirm that at the ITU meeting, we were approached by a Dutch government representative who invited US and UK government representatives to discuss the AFRINIC situation. At that meeting, I introduced them to the AFRINIC CEO, and he gave an update. I do not think that this was inappropriate or should come as a surprise. The RIPE NCC position on this is still the same as we published last year[2]. This week, we will present on our recent interactions at the ITU and UN developments during the Cooperation Working Group at RIPE 85[3]. Submitting such a talk at a RIPE Meeting is a strong signal that we are more than willing to discuss our interactions with governments in open forums in order to make sure that our work in this area is as transparent as possible. And I reiterate that our goal has always been to ensure governments make decisions based on the facts, and our underlying message is that the current RIR system works well and is worth maintaining. Regards, Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC [1] https://labs.ripe.net/author/suzanne_taylor_muzzin/reflections-on-the-itu-pl... <https://labs.ripe.net/author/suzanne_taylor_muzzin/reflections-on-the-itu-plenipotentiary-conference-2022/> [2] https://labs.ripe.net/author/hans_petter_holen/supporting-the-internet-numbe... <https://labs.ripe.net/author/hans_petter_holen/supporting-the-internet-number-registry-system/> [3] https://ripe85.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/coop-wg/ <https://ripe85.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/coop-wg/>
On 21 Oct 2022, at 15:32, Lu Heng <h.lu@larus.net> wrote:
Dear RIPE community and RIPE NCC members:
You may be well aware of RIPE NCC management's refusal to acknowledge the serious governance issue in AFRINIC and the fact that the management keeps involving itself closely with governmental bodies, ever since the miscarriage of their NRO letter to make AFRINIC a specialized agency of United Nations.
Recently, during the ITU Conference, it is said that the RIPE NCC management team seemed to have approached the American government and European Union government as a means to interfere with the ongoing matters.
As someone who has had engaged closely with the community for many years, I believe it is of utmost importance for the community to be aware of the seriousness of the matter, and a frank discussion is more than necessary in the upcoming RIPE meeting.
For RIPE NCC to make their case of seems deep interference with government and for me to exchange with the community any views and differences.
My dispute with AFRINIC (despite it is sub-judice), is essentially a "policy dispute" between members of RIR and the RIR management. Court pocceding is also part of bottom up community driven process when the dispute can not be resolved amicably.
However, NRO's request to make RIR an ITU-like body, and RIPE NCC's apparent consistent engagement with government officials to interfere in the matter, I think it is high time for the community to be aware of, discuss and decide whether such involvement is proper in a community driven, bottom-up registry who has been independent of governmental influences for more than three decades
I have submitted an lighting talk for the plenary and got rejected. I have attached the rejection letter here for your perusal. It is disconcerting to me because the matter is of utmost urgency and importance for the community and the RIR system.
The purpose of the current letter is to re-state my intention of an open, frank, heart-to-heart discussion with the community. I will appreciate if any working group chair can pick up the subject and do an BoF during the working group sessions.
I believe the graveness of the issue requires such a discussion - transparency and accountability are the two core values of this community.
Here is the letter I received:
Dear Lu Heng,
We regret to inform you that your Lightning Talk submission for RIPE 85 titled 'A difficult reality' has not been accepted into the Plenary session.
From the PC's perspective the presentation does not fit the RIPE plenary. If your submission refers to the role of the RIPE NCC, then we suggest the NCC Services WG as the appropriate venue to start this discussion. If you want to have a discussion about the RIPE community as a policy making body, then we feel the RIPE community plenary is the right place to go.
Thank you, Franziska Lichtblau on behalf of the Programme Committee
My reply:
Hi
The presentation is about ripe community’s view on current actions taken by NRO and RIPE NCC.
The matter is extremely serious and I believe ripe community should be aware.
And yes, this is about where boundaries of ripe community policy making and how many people should be aware and participate community.
I feel current ripe community is not truly inclusive enough for every internet user aware.
I think best we have a frank discussion and inform the community, rather have me go to some channels of communication, and community might feel not informed and asking why.
And THIS IS REALLY NOT ABOUT NCC SERVICE.
If PC have future questions welcome to send me zoom link to discuss.
Lu Heng Chief Executive Officer LARUS Limited
Email H.Lu@LARUS.net <mailto:a.yan@outsideheaven.com> Office +852 2988 8918 <tel:+852+29888918> Address A3, 11/F, TML Tower, Tsuen Wan, N.T, Hong Kong SAR Website: LARUS.net This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/hph%40ripe.net
Hi Hans: Your email below does not deal with the issue of why an RIR attempted to appoint ATU members as directors or why AFRINIC applied to be specialised agency of United Nations in an attempt to gain diplomatic immunity. This is imposing government control over an RIR. Your email below is designed to confuse. I am not saying RIR community should not engagement government, in fact, government is part of the community in the muti-stake holder model which I support. The only body to ask for government control have been RIR's. The issue is very simple, once it was revealed what AFRINIC was attempting to hand control over to governments, the issue was exposed exposed and unfortunately the community has not had a satisfactory response why this was done. As you have been unable or unwilling to answer the simple point of why RIR's themselves have asked to hand control over to governments and specifically: a) why did AFRINIC attempt to appoint intra-governmental representatives to their board b) why did RIR CEO's attempt to claim diplomatic immunity. We know that the RIR's attempted to conceal these actions so I accept the questions and answers maybe difficult, but the community needs answers. Now is a good opportunity for the discussion these matters. Lu Heng Chief Executive Officer LARUS Limited Email H.Lu@LARUS.netmailto:a.yan@outsideheaven.com Office tel:+852+29888918 Address A3, 11/F, TML Tower, Tsuen Wan, N.T, Hong Kong SAR Website: LARUS.net This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. ---- On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 20:56:34 +0800 Hans Petter Holen <hph@ripe.net> wrote --- Dear all, Lu says that it is “high time for the community to be aware of, discuss and decide whether such involvement is proper in a community-driven, bottom-up registry who has been independent of governmental influences for more than three decades.” I want to make clear that this statement does not reflect reality and that I also welcome input from our membership and community on this matter. I understand from his emails that Lu sees our interactions with governments as potentially leading to a change in the nature of the RIR system that may weaken our long-established community-based governance processes. In fact, the opposite is true. We have made serious efforts over the years to explain why we interact with governments, and we have been very open about those interactions. I will go further and say that our long-standing and productive relationships with governments throughout our service region have been an important factor in maintaining the current RIR system and mitigating threats to that system. The message we have always put to governments is that the current system works well and that it should not be changed. We also make it clear that we welcome participation from governments as key Internet stakeholders. So while Lu might see our government interactions as something to be suspicious of, I take a different view. If we do not involve governments in our community, they will be more likely to act without reference to the experience and knowledge of our community. We are also open about our interactions with both governments and the ITU. Just last week, we published a detailed article about our work at the recent ITU Plenipotentiary in Romania[1]. And for the sake of clarity, I will confirm that at the ITU meeting, we were approached by a Dutch government representative who invited US and UK government representatives to discuss the AFRINIC situation. At that meeting, I introduced them to the AFRINIC CEO, and he gave an update. I do not think that this was inappropriate or should come as a surprise. The RIPE NCC position on this is still the same as we published last year[2]. This week, we will present on our recent interactions at the ITU and UN developments during the Cooperation Working Group at RIPE 85[3]. Submitting such a talk at a RIPE Meeting is a strong signal that we are more than willing to discuss our interactions with governments in open forums in order to make sure that our work in this area is as transparent as possible. And I reiterate that our goal has always been to ensure governments make decisions based on the facts, and our underlying message is that the current RIR system works well and is worth maintaining. Regards, Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC [1]https://labs.ripe.net/author/suzanne_taylor_muzzin/reflections-on-the-itu-pl... [2] https://labs.ripe.net/author/hans_petter_holen/supporting-the-internet-numbe... [3] https://ripe85.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/coop-wg/ On 21 Oct 2022, at 15:32, Lu Heng <mailto:h.lu@larus.net> wrote: Dear RIPE community and RIPE NCC members: You may be well aware of RIPE NCC management's refusal to acknowledge the serious governance issue in AFRINIC and the fact that the management keeps involving itself closely with governmental bodies, ever since the miscarriage of their NRO letter to make AFRINIC a specialized agency of United Nations. Recently, during the ITU Conference, it is said that the RIPE NCC management team seemed to have approached the American government and European Union government as a means to interfere with the ongoing matters. As someone who has had engaged closely with the community for many years, I believe it is of utmost importance for the community to be aware of the seriousness of the matter, and a frank discussion is more than necessary in the upcoming RIPE meeting. For RIPE NCC to make their case of seems deep interference with government and for me to exchange with the community any views and differences. My dispute with AFRINIC (despite it is sub-judice), is essentially a "policy dispute" between members of RIR and the RIR management. Court pocceding is also part of bottom up community driven process when the dispute can not be resolved amicably. However, NRO's request to make RIR an ITU-like body, and RIPE NCC's apparent consistent engagement with government officials to interfere in the matter, I think it is high time for the community to be aware of, discuss and decide whether such involvement is proper in a community driven, bottom-up registry who has been independent of governmental influences for more than three decades I have submitted an lighting talk for the plenary and got rejected. I have attached the rejection letter here for your perusal. It is disconcerting to me because the matter is of utmost urgency and importance for the community and the RIR system. The purpose of the current letter is to re-state my intention of an open, frank, heart-to-heart discussion with the community. I will appreciate if any working group chair can pick up the subject and do an BoF during the working group sessions. I believe the graveness of the issue requires such a discussion - transparency and accountability are the two core values of this community. Here is the letter I received: Dear Lu Heng, We regret to inform you that your Lightning Talk submission for RIPE 85 titled 'A difficult reality' has not been accepted into the Plenary session.
From the PC's perspective the presentation does not fit the RIPE plenary. If your submission refers to the role of the RIPE NCC, then we suggest the NCC Services WG as the appropriate venue to start this discussion.
If you want to have a discussion about the RIPE community as a policy making body, then we feel the RIPE community plenary is the right place to go. Thank you, Franziska Lichtblau on behalf of the Programme Committee My reply: Hi The presentation is about ripe community’s view on current actions taken by NRO and RIPE NCC. The matter is extremely serious and I believe ripe community should be aware. And yes, this is about where boundaries of ripe community policy making and how many people should be aware and participate community. I feel current ripe community is not truly inclusive enough for every internet user aware. I think best we have a frank discussion and inform the community, rather have me go to some channels of communication, and community might feel not informed and asking why. And THIS IS REALLY NOT ABOUT NCC SERVICE. If PC have future questions welcome to send me zoom link to discuss. Lu Heng Chief Executive Officer LARUS Limited Email mailto:H.Lu@LARUS.netmailto:a.yan@outsideheaven.com Office tel:+852+29888918 Address A3, 11/F, TML Tower, Tsuen Wan, N.T, Hong Kong SAR Website: http://LARUS.net This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/hph%40ripe.net
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Dear Hans, Please be transparent with the community and please share with us all the full names of the Dutch, US and UK government representatives that you referred to. Kind Regards, El'ad ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, October 25th, 2022 at 3:56 PM, Hans Petter Holen <hph@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear all,
Lu says that it is “high time for the community to be aware of, discuss and decide whether such involvement is proper in a community-driven, bottom-up registry who has been independent of governmental influences for more than three decades.” I want to make clear that this statement does not reflect reality and that I also welcome input from our membership and community on this matter.
I understand from his emails that Lu sees our interactions with governments as potentially leading to a change in the nature of the RIR system that may weaken our long-established community-based governance processes. In fact, the opposite is true.
We have made serious efforts over the years to explain why we interact with governments, and we have been very open about those interactions. I will go further and say that our long-standing and productive relationships with governments throughout our service region have been an important factor in maintaining the current RIR system and mitigating threats to that system.
The message we have always put to governments is that the current system works well and that it should not be changed. We also make it clear that we welcome participation from governments as key Internet stakeholders. So while Lu might see our government interactions as something to be suspicious of, I take a different view. If we do not involve governments in our community, they will be more likely to act without reference to the experience and knowledge of our community.
We are also open about our interactions with both governments and the ITU. Just last week, we published a detailed article about our work at the recent ITU Plenipotentiary in Romania[1]. And for the sake of clarity, I will confirm that at the ITU meeting, we were approached by a Dutch government representative who invited US and UK government representatives to discuss the AFRINIC situation. At that meeting, I introduced them to the AFRINIC CEO, and he gave an update. I do not think that this was inappropriate or should come as a surprise. The RIPE NCC position on this is still the same as we published last year[2].
This week, we will present on our recent interactions at the ITU and UN developments during the Cooperation Working Group at RIPE 85[3]. Submitting such a talk at a RIPE Meeting is a strong signal that we are more than willing to discuss our interactions with governments in open forums in order to make sure that our work in this area is as transparent as possible. And I reiterate that our goal has always been to ensure governments make decisions based on the facts, and our underlying message is that the current RIR system works well and is worth maintaining.
Regards,
Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC
[1] https://labs.ripe.net/author/suzanne_taylor_muzzin/reflections-on-the-itu-pl... [2] https://labs.ripe.net/author/hans_petter_holen/supporting-the-internet-numbe... [3] https://ripe85.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/coop-wg/
On 21 Oct 2022, at 15:32, Lu Heng <h.lu@larus.net> wrote:
Dear RIPE community and RIPE NCC members:
You may be well aware of RIPE NCC management's refusal to acknowledge the serious governance issue in AFRINIC and the fact that the management keeps involving itself closely with governmental bodies, ever since the miscarriage of their NRO letter to make AFRINIC a specialized agency of United Nations. Recently, during the ITU Conference, it is said that the RIPE NCC management team seemed to have approached the American government and European Union government as a means to interfere with the ongoing matters. As someone who has had engaged closely with the community for many years, I believe it is of utmost importance for the community to be aware of the seriousness of the matter, and a frank discussion is more than necessary in the upcoming RIPE meeting.
For RIPE NCC to make their case of seems deep interference with government and for me to exchange with the community any views and differences. My dispute with AFRINIC (despite it is sub-judice), is essentially a "policy dispute" between members of RIR and the RIR management. Court pocceding is also part of bottom up community driven process when the dispute can not be resolved amicably. However, NRO's request to make RIR an ITU-like body, and RIPE NCC's apparent consistent engagement with government officials to interfere in the matter, I think it is high time for the community to be aware of, discuss and decide whether such involvement is proper in a community driven, bottom-up registry who has been independent of governmental influences for more than three decades I have submitted an lighting talk for the plenary and got rejected. I have attached the rejection letter here for your perusal. It is disconcerting to me because the matter is of utmost urgency and importance for the community and the RIR system. The purpose of the current letter is to re-state my intention of an open, frank, heart-to-heart discussion with the community. I will appreciate if any working group chair can pick up the subject and do an BoF during the working group sessions. I believe the graveness of the issue requires such a discussion - transparency and accountability are the two core values of this community. Here is the letter I received:
Dear Lu Heng,
We regret to inform you that your Lightning Talk submission for RIPE 85 titled 'A difficult reality' has not been accepted into the Plenary session.
From the PC's perspective the presentation does not fit the RIPE plenary. If your submission refers to the role of the RIPE NCC, then we suggest the NCC Services WG as the appropriate venue to start this discussion. If you want to have a discussion about the RIPE community as a policy making body, then we feel the RIPE community plenary is the right place to go.
Thank you, Franziska Lichtblau on behalf of the Programme Committee
My reply: Hi The presentation is about ripe community’s view on current actions taken by NRO and RIPE NCC. The matter is extremely serious and I believe ripe community should be aware. And yes, this is about where boundaries of ripe community policy making and how many people should be aware and participate community. I feel current ripe community is not truly inclusive enough for every internet user aware. I think best we have a frank discussion and inform the community, rather have me go to some channels of communication, and community might feel not informed and asking why. And THIS IS REALLY NOT ABOUT NCC SERVICE. If PC have future questions welcome to send me zoom link to discuss.
Lu Heng Chief Executive Officer LARUS Limited
Email H.Lu@LARUS.net Office +852 2988 8918
Address A3, 11/F, TML Tower, Tsuen Wan, N.T, Hong Kong SAR
Website: LARUS.net
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/hph%40ripe.net -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: ProtonMail
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Hi, can the moderators please find a solution to this discussion being crossposted to two (very large) mailing list, and with the different delivery times, causing "the other copy" of most mails to arrive hours or days later, which is highly annoying on the receiving side. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
hans petter, the big-I Internet has become major critical infrastructure across the globe. to pretend we can ignore civil society, governments, the ITU, etc. would be shocking naïve and an extremely short term strategy. i, for one, appreciate RIPE and the NCC, and the RIR communities representing our interests to the formal aspects of civil society. randy
Hi,
the big-I Internet has become major critical infrastructure across the globe. to pretend we can ignore civil society, governments, the ITU, etc. would be shocking naïve and an extremely short term strategy.
i, for one, appreciate RIPE and the NCC, and the RIR communities representing our interests to the formal aspects of civil society.
+1 Our community is not an island. We need to work together with other bodies. While I got angry some time ago about some wording used, I *do* support the NCC's activities in this area. Cheers, Sander
Hi sander:So you do support RIR to be ITU and controlled by UN?Lu HengChief Executive Officer LARUS LimitedEmail H.Lu@LARUS.net Office +852 2988 8918 Address A3, 11/F, TML Tower, Tsuen Wan, N.T, Hong Kong SARWebsite: LARUS.netThis email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.---- On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 15:25:31 +0800 Sander Steffann<sander@steffann.nl> wrote ----Hi,> the big-I Internet has become major critical infrastructure across the> globe. to pretend we can ignore civil society, governments, the ITU,> etc. would be shocking naïve and an extremely short term strategy.> > i, for one, appreciate RIPE and the NCC, and the RIR communities> representing our interests to the formal aspects of civil society.+1Our community is not an island. We need to work together with other bodies. While I got angry some time ago about some wording used, I *do* support the NCC's activities in this area.Cheers,Sander-- To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ripe-list
Hi Lu,
So you do support RIR to be ITU and controlled by UN
You seem to (intentionally?) confuse “work together with” and “being controlled by”. Please don’t. Cheers, Sander
Hi sander:Sending letter request to be specialized agency of United nation is “work with” government? If being specialized agency of United nation is not controlled by inter governmental body I don’t know what is.No, I am not confused here, you probably(intentionally) are.Lu HengChief Executive Officer LARUS LimitedEmail H.Lu@LARUS.net Office +852 2988 8918 Address A3, 11/F, TML Tower, Tsuen Wan, N.T, Hong Kong SARWebsite: LARUS.netThis email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.---- On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 17:08:02 +0800 Sander Steffann<sander@steffann.nl> wrote ----Hi Lu,So you do support RIR to be ITU and controlled by UNYou seem to (intentionally?) confuse “work together with” and “being controlled by”. Please don’t. Cheers,Sander
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 * GDPR regulations apply to this electronic mail, monitoring and/or storing it by a 3rd party is strictly forbidden * Sander, I hope that RIPE NCC will share the full names of the Dutch, US and UK government representatives. And that there is nothing to hide, it is not like the CIA and MI6 are pulling the strings in Afrinic. Kind Regards, Elad The information transmitted by this email is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. This email may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, be aware that any use, review, retransmission, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is strictly prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers. ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, October 26th, 2022 at 12:08 PM, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi Lu,
So you do support RIR to be ITU and controlled by UN
You seem to (intentionally?) confuse “work together with” and “being controlled by”. Please don’t.
Cheers, Sander
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What I support: - The RIPE NCC cooperating with other governance structures in the world. - The RIPE NCC taking any action it deems neccessary to safeguard the RIR system from outside threats and support other RIRs in their proper functioning. What I do not support: - Continued attempts by some members to gaslight the RIPE NCC into not doing the above. Alex Le Heux
Hi, (trimming to ripe-members, this crossposting is annoying) On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 03:00:11PM +0200, Alex Le Heux wrote:
What I support:
- The RIPE NCC cooperating with other governance structures in the world. - The RIPE NCC taking any action it deems neccessary to safeguard the RIR system from outside threats and support other RIRs in their proper functioning.
I'm in, though I expect a bit more sensitivity in applying the "taking *any* action" part...
What I do not support:
- Continued attempts by some members to gaslight the RIPE NCC into not doing the above.
This. (And, RIPE NCC does what the RIPE members tell it to -> if needed, there can be voting to make it do or not do something) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi,
On 27 Oct 2022, at 15:00, Alex Le Heux <aleheux@tucowsinc.com> wrote:
What I support:
- The RIPE NCC cooperating with other governance structures in the world. - The RIPE NCC taking any action it deems neccessary to safeguard the RIR system from outside threats and support other RIRs in their proper functioning.
What I do not support:
- Continued attempts by some members to gaslight the RIPE NCC into not doing the above.
Thank you for summarising this, +1 Cheers, Sander
Hi Alex: See inline: Lu Heng Chief Executive Officer LARUS Limited Email H.Lu@LARUS.netmailto:a.yan@outsideheaven.com Office tel:+852+29888918 Address A3, 11/F, TML Tower, Tsuen Wan, N.T, Hong Kong SAR Website: LARUS.net This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. ---- On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 21:00:11 +0800 Alex Le Heux <aleheux@tucowsinc.com> wrote --- What I support: - The RIPE NCC cooperating with other governance structures in the world. - The RIPE NCC taking any action it deems neccessary to safeguard the RIR system from outside threats and support other RIRs in their proper functioning. Asking RIR to be specialised agency of the united nation is none of above, unless you consider give RIR leadership immunity in order to escape community scrutiny is "protecting RIR system from outside threats". What I do not support: - Continued attempts by some members to gaslight the RIPE NCC into not doing the above. Revealing the attempt by RIR leadership to give up community to the united nation is not gaslighting RIPE NCC not doing above as well. It called Whistleblowing. If Community indeed want to be specialised agency of the united nation collectively, it is not up to me to make such decision, I would not agree, but if this indeed is the community position, we can be open and transparent about it. Keep confusing the community on "giving up community for governmental control" with "cooperation with governmental body", is not helping here. Alex Le Heux _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/h.lu%40larus.net
This is a very clear and concise way of stating the obvious here. I very much appreciate these points. /Jon Agust Reynisson -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Alex Le Heux Sent: torsdag 27. oktober 2022 15:00 To: Members-Discuss RIPE <members-discuss@ripe.net> Cc: RIPE List <ripe-list@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ripe-list] A frank discussion What I support: - The RIPE NCC cooperating with other governance structures in the world. - The RIPE NCC taking any action it deems neccessary to safeguard the RIR system from outside threats and support other RIRs in their proper functioning. What I do not support: - Continued attempts by some members to gaslight the RIPE NCC into not doing the above. Alex Le Heux _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe... Unsubscribe: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe...
Peace, On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:11 AM Lu Heng <h.lu@larus.net> wrote:
For RIPE NCC to make their case of seems deep interference with government
[..]
NRO's request to make RIR an ITU-like body, and RIPE NCC's apparent consistent engagement with government officials to interfere in the matter, I think it is high time for the community to be aware of, discuss and decide whether such involvement is proper in a community driven, bottom-up registry who has been independent of governmental influences for more than three decades
Outreach and mutual knowledge sharing between ASO/NRO and governments/intergovernmental organizations is neither anything new, nor a sign of any change in the way number resource authorities perform their duties in the multistakeholder model. You may want to get acquainted, for instance, with ICANN GAC duties and operations. https://gac.icann.org/about -- Töma
Hi Toma:That is exactly what Hans have been trying to confuse the community about.NRO letter is asking the government taking over RIR in exchange for immunity for RIR leadership , not asking government being part of community, but essentially ignore all the other stake holders, have government taking oversight rule -and abandon the 30 years community self governance. I am all for government stay as part of the community in multi stake holder model.But this is not the problem, and not the discussion needed here.Lu HengChief Executive Officer LARUS LimitedEmail H.Lu@LARUS.net Office +852 2988 8918 Address A3, 11/F, TML Tower, Tsuen Wan, N.T, Hong Kong SARWebsite: LARUS.netThis email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.---- On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 23:00:26 +0800 ximaera@gmail.com<ximaera@gmail.com> wrote ----Peace, On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:11 AM Lu Heng <h.lu@larus.net> wrote: > For RIPE NCC to make their case of seems deep interference with government > > [..] > > NRO's request to make RIR an ITU-like body, and RIPE NCC's apparent > consistent engagement with government officials to interfere in the matter, > I think it is high time for the community to be aware of, discuss and > decide whether such involvement is proper in a community driven, > bottom-up registry who has been independent of governmental > influences for more than three decades Outreach and mutual knowledge sharing between ASO/NRO and governments/intergovernmental organizations is neither anything new, nor a sign of any change in the way number resource authorities perform their duties in the multistakeholder model. You may want to get acquainted, for instance, with ICANN GAC duties and operations. https://gac.icann.org/about -- Töma
Peace, On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 5:51 PM Lu Heng <h.lu@larus.net> wrote:
NRO letter is asking the government taking over RIR in exchange for immunity for RIR leadership
If, for some reason, you're now referring to the summer NRO letter to the Mauritian government, then it was discussed previously, on more than one occasion, as thoroughly, as the RIPE community opted to do. If we could abstain from getting back again and again to the same topic in this mailing list (not even talking about any subsequent plenary submissions), that would be much appreciated. -- Töma
Hi Tome:I would very much prefer to move on on the subject.However during the discussion, Hans have been evasive the key point in which is the meaning of international organization.Later Mauritius government letter provided an definitive answer, and in light of recent engagement again on the same subject by ripe NCC in ITU meeting.Hence I feel the need for the community to be aware.And discuss if such deep involvement of RIPE NCC in an essentially African community subject matter is appreciated and if community agree for RIPE NCC asking the government to take over and end 30 years of self governance. Lu HengChief Executive Officer LARUS LimitedEmail H.Lu@LARUS.net Office +852 2988 8918 Address A3, 11/F, TML Tower, Tsuen Wan, N.T, Hong Kong SARWebsite: LARUS.netThis email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.---- On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 00:07:36 +0800 Töma Gavrichenkov<ximaera@gmail.com> wrote ----Peace, On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 5:51 PM Lu Heng <h.lu@larus.net> wrote: > NRO letter is asking the government taking over RIR > in exchange for immunity for RIR leadership If, for some reason, you're now referring to the summer NRO letter to the Mauritian government, then it was discussed previously, on more than one occasion, as thoroughly, as the RIPE community opted to do. If we could abstain from getting back again and again to the same topic in this mailing list (not even talking about any subsequent plenary submissions), that would be much appreciated. -- Töma
participants (9)
-
Alex Le Heux -
Elad Cohen -
Gert Doering -
Hans Petter Holen -
Jon Agust Reynisson -
Lu Heng -
Randy Bush -
Sander Steffann -
Töma Gavrichenkov