Clarifications on NRO Letter to Mauritian Government
Dear all, I will respond where I can, although the RIPE NCC cannot speak for AFRINIC, and any statement on behalf of the NRO needs to be made jointly with the other four RIRs. First, I would like to address the concerns about the language used in the NRO letter to the Mauritian government. It was not written in a tone that we would use under ordinary circumstances. The letter could have been worded better in parts, and it obviously led to our message being misconstrued. We take note of this and will do better in this regard. Further, some of you have expressed concerns that this letter was an attempt by the NRO to interfere in the judicial processes of Mauritius. However, this was not the intention. As I said in my previous email, we simply wanted to lend weight to AFRINIC's request and help to ensure its ability to provide services to its members. In no way do we believe it is our place (or the NRO’s for that matter) to influence judicial processes in a sovereign nation. Coming to the issue of “international status” for RIRs, this status can mean different things under different jurisdictions. The RIPE NCC has not requested "international status" from any Dutch or international body. What such status might mean for AFRINIC would be for the Mauritian government to evaluate. For the RIPE NCC, you, our members, are the ultimate governing body, and any potential changes to our legal status would be made in consultation with you. I agree fully with comments that the issues with AFRINIC's governance need to be addressed and I want to reiterate that only the members of AFRINIC and the Internet community in Africa can resolve them. We encourage AFRINIC's members and community to contribute constructively to improve this situation. All our efforts have been guided by the desire to support the stability of the global RIR system, which as Lu correctly points out, is a global, bottom-up, community-driven project. This is how the Internet has been built and, we hope, will continue to be governed. Finally, this list is under moderation and we will continue to ensure that all mails that are put through to the list abide by the code of conduct. Sincerely, Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 I call for the resignation of RIPE NCC CEO after the response below. ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 22nd, 2022 at 14:47, Hans Petter Holen <hph@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear all,
I will respond where I can, although the RIPE NCC cannot speak for AFRINIC, and any statement on behalf of the NRO needs to be made jointly with the other four RIRs.
First, I would like to address the concerns about the language used in the NRO letter to the Mauritian government. It was not written in a tone that we would use under ordinary circumstances. The letter could have been worded better in parts, and it obviously led to our message being misconstrued. We take note of this and will do better in this regard.
Further, some of you have expressed concerns that this letter was an attempt by the NRO to interfere in the judicial processes of Mauritius. However, this was not the intention. As I said in my previous email, we simply wanted to lend weight to AFRINIC's request and help to ensure its ability to provide services to its members. In no way do we believe it is our place (or the NRO’s for that matter) to influence judicial processes in a sovereign nation.
Coming to the issue of “international status” for RIRs, this status can mean different things under different jurisdictions. The RIPE NCC has not requested "international status" from any Dutch or international body. What such status might mean for AFRINIC would be for the Mauritian government to evaluate. For the RIPE NCC, you, our members, are the ultimate governing body, and any potential changes to our legal status would be made in consultation with you.
I agree fully with comments that the issues with AFRINIC's governance need to be addressed and I want to reiterate that only the members of AFRINIC and the Internet community in Africa can resolve them. We encourage AFRINIC's members and community to contribute constructively to improve this situation.
All our efforts have been guided by the desire to support the stability of the global RIR system, which as Lu correctly points out, is a global, bottom-up, community-driven project. This is how the Internet has been built and, we hope, will continue to be governed.
Finally, this list is under moderation and we will continue to ensure that all mails that are put through to the list abide by the code of conduct.
Sincerely,
Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elad%40netstyle.io -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: ProtonMail
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Dear Hans: Thank you for your response. Members will be interested in your views on the recent revelation that suspended CEO of AFRINIC, Eddy, had sent a letter asking ATU to appoint directors for AFRINIC in an attempt to avoid member elect directors. This plea, coupled with the NRO letter seeking diplomatic immunity for AFRINIC, begs the question why not just let all RIR join the ITU? You will got immunity from ITU or ATU or whichever governmental body that will appoint directors of RIR, and no member would ever be able to find justice in court. The recent events and actions of AFRINIC and other RIR defies everything I, and some of the other members I was talking to, learned in this community. It goes against everything, that the bottom up and community driven approach that Rob told me on my first day of RIPE meeting a decade ago. I hope to preserve the RIR system I grew up with. I hope you agree with that desire. At the end of the day, you were there when it was created and we need you to continue to fight for our independence from interference - regardless of where the requests for interference come from. With regards Lu On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 9:05 PM Hans Petter Holen <hph@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear all,
I will respond where I can, although the RIPE NCC cannot speak for AFRINIC, and any statement on behalf of the NRO needs to be made jointly with the other four RIRs.
First, I would like to address the concerns about the language used in the NRO letter to the Mauritian government. It was not written in a tone that we would use under ordinary circumstances. The letter could have been worded better in parts, and it obviously led to our message being misconstrued. We take note of this and will do better in this regard.
Further, some of you have expressed concerns that this letter was an attempt by the NRO to interfere in the judicial processes of Mauritius. However, this was not the intention. As I said in my previous email, we simply wanted to lend weight to AFRINIC's request and help to ensure its ability to provide services to its members. In no way do we believe it is our place (or the NRO’s for that matter) to influence judicial processes in a sovereign nation.
Coming to the issue of “international status” for RIRs, this status can mean different things under different jurisdictions. The RIPE NCC has not requested "international status" from any Dutch or international body. What such status might mean for AFRINIC would be for the Mauritian government to evaluate. For the RIPE NCC, you, our members, are the ultimate governing body, and any potential changes to our legal status would be made in consultation with you.
I agree fully with comments that the issues with AFRINIC's governance need to be addressed and I want to reiterate that only the members of AFRINIC and the Internet community in Africa can resolve them. We encourage AFRINIC's members and community to contribute constructively to improve this situation.
All our efforts have been guided by the desire to support the stability of the global RIR system, which as Lu correctly points out, is a global, bottom-up, community-driven project. This is how the Internet has been built and, we hope, will continue to be governed.
Finally, this list is under moderation and we will continue to ensure that all mails that are put through to the list abide by the code of conduct.
Sincerely,
Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/h.lu%40outsideheaven....
This plea, coupled with the NRO letter seeking diplomatic immunity for AFRINIC, begs the question why not just let all RIR join the ITU?
You do not want to take this path. Of course if you want to obtain IP space from your local residents' registration office only, then ITU might be an option.
Hi Lutz, I do not want to take this path either. Unfortunately it seems that the current RIR leaders have decided to take this path. In fact, the Russian representative in ITU has made such a proposal some time ago, with an intention to take over the current RIR system. It seems to me the NRO’s action of requesting diplomatic status for an RIR, as well as the fact that the suspended AFRINIC CEO has requested the government to appoint directors of RIR in order to bypass a legitimate election, are executing the Russian Representative’s proposal in full. https://www.heise.de/news/ICANN-Versammlung-Russlands-Vorstoss-Bedrohung-fue... On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 5:00 PM Lutz Donnerhacke < L.Donnerhacke@iks-service.de> wrote:
This plea, coupled with the NRO letter seeking diplomatic immunity for AFRINIC, begs the question why not just let all RIR join the ITU?
You do not want to take this path. Of course if you want to obtain IP space from your local residents' registration office only, then ITU might be an option.
The Russian proposal is far older than ICANN72. Some BRICs countries joined such ideas years ago. There is no need to refresh such bad memories again and again, despite you want to push them. At least at ICANN74 (some weeks ago) there was no such discussion, and the Russian delegates were unusually quite. My feeling is, that even the ITU oppose those proposals. So please stop spreading them. Thank you. Von: Heng Lu <h.lu@outsideheaven.com> Gesendet: Montag, 25. Juli 2022 12:03 An: Lutz Donnerhacke <L.Donnerhacke@iks-service.de> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] Clarifications on NRO Letter to Mauritian Government Hi Lutz, I do not want to take this path either. Unfortunately it seems that the current RIR leaders have decided to take this path. In fact, the Russian representative in ITU has made such a proposal some time ago, with an intention to take over the current RIR system. It seems to me the NRO’s action of requesting diplomatic status for an RIR, as well as the fact that the suspended AFRINIC CEO has requested the government to appoint directors of RIR in order to bypass a legitimate election, are executing the Russian Representative’s proposal in full. https://www.heise.de/news/ICANN-Versammlung-Russlands-Vorstoss-Bedrohung-fue... On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 5:00 PM Lutz Donnerhacke <L.Donnerhacke@iks-service.de<mailto:L.Donnerhacke@iks-service.de>> wrote:
This plea, coupled with the NRO letter seeking diplomatic immunity for AFRINIC, begs the question why not just let all RIR join the ITU?
You do not want to take this path. Of course if you want to obtain IP space from your local residents' registration office only, then ITU might be an option.
Hi Lutz: I am not spreading them, I simply point out the events that happened in past weeks both from NRO and the suspended CEO of AFRINIC seems to be executing such a proposal. On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 7:28 PM Lutz Donnerhacke < L.Donnerhacke@iks-service.de> wrote:
The Russian proposal is far older than ICANN72. Some BRICs countries joined such ideas years ago.
There is no need to refresh such bad memories again and again, despite you want to push them.
At least at ICANN74 (some weeks ago) there was no such discussion, and the Russian delegates were unusually quite.
My feeling is, that even the ITU oppose those proposals. So please stop spreading them.
Thank you.
*Von:* Heng Lu <h.lu@outsideheaven.com> *Gesendet:* Montag, 25. Juli 2022 12:03 *An:* Lutz Donnerhacke <L.Donnerhacke@iks-service.de> *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Betreff:* Re: [members-discuss] Clarifications on NRO Letter to Mauritian Government
Hi Lutz,
I do not want to take this path either.
Unfortunately it seems that the current RIR leaders have decided to take this path.
In fact, the Russian representative in ITU has made such a proposal some time ago, with an intention to take over the current RIR system. It seems to me the NRO’s action of requesting diplomatic status for an RIR, as well as the fact that the suspended AFRINIC CEO has requested the government to appoint directors of RIR in order to bypass a legitimate election, are executing the Russian Representative’s proposal in full.
https://www.heise.de/news/ICANN-Versammlung-Russlands-Vorstoss-Bedrohung-fue...
On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 5:00 PM Lutz Donnerhacke < L.Donnerhacke@iks-service.de> wrote:
This plea, coupled with the NRO letter seeking diplomatic immunity for AFRINIC, begs the question why not just let all RIR join the ITU?
You do not want to take this path. Of course if you want to obtain IP space from your local residents' registration office only, then ITU might be an option.
< opinion, with words borrowed from african sources > as americans, we are still learning to read through the falsehoods and propaganda. as is said of trump and friends, the goal is to create enough noise and confusion to muddy all issues and obscure truth. there are two parts to the mess; the first is the case against CI; which really is just a matter of how the court in mauritius wants to interpret the RSA. IANAL, so my opinion amounts to zippo. it really is just a case of arguing the legal semantics. this case is being dragged out by CI, because as long as the case is "under review" they hold onto the questionable resources, can still monetise them, and use the monitisation to fund more legal action, noise, confusion, and propaganda. while this is ongoing they can continue to launch their overfunded death by a thousand cuts attack against any and every other part of afrinic and on our cooperative culture in general. unfortunately, the second part of the mess is the fault of several afrinic directors. they did themselves and the community no favors; from passing resolutions for which they did’t have authority, to trying to force the electoral process; they’ve managed to incense even otherwise supporters of afrinic. and worse, they’ve created easy materials for CI and their hoodlums to take to court, to show that the board (ergo organisation) is corrupt. all of this should be separate to the main case of course, but in their propaganda, they easily smudge the lines ... noise and confusion to muddy all issues and obscure truth. eddy’s has taken a really positive step forward; the most recent "case" against afrinic asking to have the court appoint four new directors so the board has a quorum and can clean the mess up; (hopefully) not bound to the cloud innovation paid shill money chain. then they can move afrinic forward. the CI cesspool’s latest noises about eddy being suspended are false; due to lack of a board quorum, he can’t execute ex-officio director duties, particularly regarding the injunctions that were sought against afrinic. he is not suspended as ceo; that is bs propaganda. as he is prevented from acting effectively, he is on a previously planned vacation though. randy
Hi Randy: The very base of your Email is factually wrong. The very fact that Cloud Innovation just won a judgement on a preliminary point raised BY AFRINIC means it was AFRINIC delayed case to this day. https://cloudinnovation.org/press-release5.html "An interlocutory judgment was delivered by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme Court of Mauritius on 19 July 2022 in favour of Cloud Innovation,* setting aside the preliminary objection raised by AFRINIC.* " And since the base of your argument that "cloud innovation trying to use delaying tactics" is factually wrong, the rest of your assumption follows that base is naturally wrong. If you call Eddy's action of asking the Telecommunication Union to appoint the director of RIR and in the attempt to bypass the member based election as "positive step", then I believe you and I's ideology are so far apart there is not much for us to discuss. I still believe, and hope, the global RIR community will not abandon its funding principles, bottom up, and community driven. If you would like to join Eddy's new initiative of joining the government, appoint RIR directors with attached immunity to protect its illegal action from rule of laws, and turn RIR into what ITU once proposed as an intergovernmental body, you are welcome to state it publically. As for suspension, the law is clear: https://www.mcci.org/media/35749/the-companies-act-2001.pdf Managing Director (a) The directors may appoint one or more members of the Board to the office of managing director for such period and on such terms as they think fit and, subject to the terms of any agreement entered into in any particular case, may revoke that appointment. *(b) Where a managing director ceases to be a director for any reason whatsoever, his appointment shall automatically lapse.* On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 9:02 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
< opinion, with words borrowed from african sources >
as americans, we are still learning to read through the falsehoods and propaganda. as is said of trump and friends, the goal is to create enough noise and confusion to muddy all issues and obscure truth.
there are two parts to the mess; the first is the case against CI; which really is just a matter of how the court in mauritius wants to interpret the RSA. IANAL, so my opinion amounts to zippo. it really is just a case of arguing the legal semantics.
this case is being dragged out by CI, because as long as the case is "under review" they hold onto the questionable resources, can still monetise them, and use the monitisation to fund more legal action, noise, confusion, and propaganda. while this is ongoing they can continue to launch their overfunded death by a thousand cuts attack against any and every other part of afrinic and on our cooperative culture in general.
unfortunately, the second part of the mess is the fault of several afrinic directors. they did themselves and the community no favors; from passing resolutions for which they did’t have authority, to trying to force the electoral process; they’ve managed to incense even otherwise supporters of afrinic. and worse, they’ve created easy materials for CI and their hoodlums to take to court, to show that the board (ergo organisation) is corrupt. all of this should be separate to the main case of course, but in their propaganda, they easily smudge the lines ... noise and confusion to muddy all issues and obscure truth.
eddy’s has taken a really positive step forward; the most recent "case" against afrinic asking to have the court appoint four new directors so the board has a quorum and can clean the mess up; (hopefully) not bound to the cloud innovation paid shill money chain. then they can move afrinic forward. the CI cesspool’s latest noises about eddy being suspended are false; due to lack of a board quorum, he can’t execute ex-officio director duties, particularly regarding the injunctions that were sought against afrinic. he is not suspended as ceo; that is bs propaganda. as he is prevented from acting effectively, he is on a previously planned vacation though.
randy
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Hi Randy,
there are two parts to the mess; the first is the case against CI; which really is just a matter of how the court in mauritius wants to interpret the RSA. IANAL, so my opinion amounts to zippo. it really is just a case of arguing the legal semantics.
Indeed. There are many factors there, including whether AFRINIC is seen as a monopoly and if any restrictions that the RSA places in addition to the bottom-up policies are considered valid or onerous by the court etc etc etc. That is the most dangerous aspect of these cases in my view, as that may say something about the other RIRs as well. And I have no idea how this will turn out. IAANAL.
unfortunately, the second part of the mess is the fault of several afrinic directors. they did themselves and the community no favors; from passing resolutions for which they did’t have authority, to trying to force the electoral process; they’ve managed to incense even otherwise supporters of afrinic.
Yep, me included.
and worse, they’ve created easy materials for CI and their hoodlums to take to court, to show that the board (ergo organisation) is corrupt. all of this should be separate to the main case of course, but in their propaganda, they easily smudge the lines ... noise and confusion to muddy all issues and obscure truth.
The court cases about the board misbehaving don’t seem completely unreasonable, as far I can see based on the laws and bylaws. IANAL, but there were some quite clear rules in the bylaws that don’t seem to be followed.
eddy’s has taken a really positive step forward; the most recent "case" against afrinic asking to have the court appoint four new directors so the board has a quorum and can clean the mess up; (hopefully) not bound to the cloud innovation paid shill money chain. then they can move afrinic forward.
I don’t agree with you here. Asking an ITU partner organisation to appoint directors in an RIR, vs using a bottom-up process, doesn’t seem like a step forward to me.
the CI cesspool’s latest noises about eddy being suspended are false; due to lack of a board quorum, he can’t execute ex-officio director duties, particularly regarding the injunctions that were sought against afrinic. he is not suspended as ceo; that is bs propaganda. as he is prevented from acting effectively, he is on a previously planned vacation though.
Yeah, the wording got very much abused there. The board has a quorum problem, but Eddy is still the CEO. Cheers, Sander
Dear Lu, I am more than willing to give my thoughts on some aspects of this. However, there is little value to be had in repeatedly stating the RIPE NCC position or in debating the finer points of Mauritian law. Instead, I will simply say that I agree with the text in your emails that advocates for community-driven, bottom-up principles, and that a properly functioning Internet Number Registry System benefits our members and those of the other RIRs. These are areas where there seems to be common ground between us, and I hope they will guide your actions as you pursue your agenda. One famous mantra in our community is to "keep it simple". In a community of such diverse backgrounds and competing interests, keeping it simple is not just an abstract value but a practical means of allowing people to see the best outcomes and to make valuable contributions effectively. The situation around AFRINIC has become anything but simple. There are numerous court cases brought by several parties. New organisations have sprung up to push the agendas of different individuals and groups through a wide range of media. There are governance issues to be resolved at AFRINIC. In such an environment, missteps are likely to happen on all sides, leading to further noise. It is clear to me that the complexity itself is getting in the way of resolving matters to everyone's satisfaction. So I will not presume to advise you on how to conduct your affairs in a different RIR region. However, I will ask you to keep in mind this mantra as you pursue your interests. Keep it simple. Leave room for people to focus on resolving the issues at hand. Where I can be of assistance is in talking to AFRINIC and the other RIRs at the global level and making sure they are aware of the issues that you and others have raised here regarding the health of the Internet Number Registry System. This is obviously something that is important for us all. Regards, Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC
On 22 Jul 2022, at 17:12, Heng Lu <h.lu@outsideheaven.com> wrote:
Dear Hans:
Thank you for your response.
Members will be interested in your views on the recent revelation that suspended CEO of AFRINIC, Eddy, had sent a letter asking ATU to appoint directors for AFRINIC in an attempt to avoid member elect directors. This plea, coupled with the NRO letter seeking diplomatic immunity for AFRINIC, begs the question why not just let all RIR join the ITU?
You will got immunity from ITU or ATU or whichever governmental body that will appoint directors of RIR, and no member would ever be able to find justice in court.
The recent events and actions of AFRINIC and other RIR defies everything I, and some of the other members I was talking to, learned in this community. It goes against everything, that the bottom up and community driven approach that Rob told me on my first day of RIPE meeting a decade ago.
I hope to preserve the RIR system I grew up with. I hope you agree with that desire. At the end of the day, you were there when it was created and we need you to continue to fight for our independence from interference - regardless of where the requests for interference come from.
With regards
Lu
On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 9:05 PM Hans Petter Holen <hph@ripe.net <mailto:hph@ripe.net>> wrote: Dear all,
I will respond where I can, although the RIPE NCC cannot speak for AFRINIC, and any statement on behalf of the NRO needs to be made jointly with the other four RIRs.
First, I would like to address the concerns about the language used in the NRO letter to the Mauritian government. It was not written in a tone that we would use under ordinary circumstances. The letter could have been worded better in parts, and it obviously led to our message being misconstrued. We take note of this and will do better in this regard.
Further, some of you have expressed concerns that this letter was an attempt by the NRO to interfere in the judicial processes of Mauritius. However, this was not the intention. As I said in my previous email, we simply wanted to lend weight to AFRINIC's request and help to ensure its ability to provide services to its members. In no way do we believe it is our place (or the NRO’s for that matter) to influence judicial processes in a sovereign nation.
Coming to the issue of “international status” for RIRs, this status can mean different things under different jurisdictions. The RIPE NCC has not requested "international status" from any Dutch or international body. What such status might mean for AFRINIC would be for the Mauritian government to evaluate. For the RIPE NCC, you, our members, are the ultimate governing body, and any potential changes to our legal status would be made in consultation with you.
I agree fully with comments that the issues with AFRINIC's governance need to be addressed and I want to reiterate that only the members of AFRINIC and the Internet community in Africa can resolve them. We encourage AFRINIC's members and community to contribute constructively to improve this situation.
All our efforts have been guided by the desire to support the stability of the global RIR system, which as Lu correctly points out, is a global, bottom-up, community-driven project. This is how the Internet has been built and, we hope, will continue to be governed.
Finally, this list is under moderation and we will continue to ensure that all mails that are put through to the list abide by the code of conduct.
Sincerely,
Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC
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Dear Hans, I appreciate your reply. Whilst you have avoided directly answering my questions there is one thing I have to point out which requires immediate clarification. AFRINIC does not have a board and does not have a CEO, and a court organized election is on the horizon. So, at this moment, no one can legally speak on behalf of AFRINIC, no one can take action for the institution of AFRINIC. You and the NRO’s have claimed that the (nonexistent) AFRINIC leadership has requested you to interfere with judicial proceedings in a foreign country. And again, in your reply that you said you will be "talking to AFRINIC". Whoever you are speaking with at AFRINIC does not have the legal rights to speak for AFRINIC. At this time, any previous leaders of AFRINIC or anyone for that matter, protent to be AFRINIC or act as AFRINIC, is acting unlawfully. You could have your 5 RIR's lawyers check that simple legal fact out. If I may, please let me repeat what has been repeated thousands of times by almost everyone in the community; let the community decide, let the election of AFRINIC happen so a democratic elected board can be reconstituted to resolve the mess. That is how bottom up works, that is how community driven works. This mess will not be resolved by asking governmental bodies to appoint directors of RIR, or by sending letters to violate AFRICAN country's constitutional separation of power and making defamation claims against me and my company. It will not be resolved by listening and taking instructions from impostors that pretend to be representing AFRINIC and maybe trying to grasp the last bit of his/her power. Resolution will be achieved by fair and transparent elections that everyone can join, by having community voices heard and by recognizing the extremely serious issues that need resolutions by the community. Maybe, and I am not sure if it has ever occurred to you and others, the reason why members win in court against AFRINIC--is because the courts recognise the case and issues being put forward are valid in protecting the interests of the members. Could it be that the current leadership in AFRINIC are actually wrong and courts are doing their job to protect member's interests? It is a great shame that by seeming to support the previous leadership's apparent refusal to have fair and open elections, are standing on the side that is actually against the community's interest, Thank you again for your response. In summary, please let the community fix their issues with AFRINIC though open and transparent court proceedings and a democratic election. You champion the rule of law and democracy in Europe. Why should Africa be any different? And please share details of the impostor that you have been talking to, I believe the global RIR community would be keen to know. On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 10:35 PM Hans Petter Holen <hph@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Lu,
I am more than willing to give my thoughts on some aspects of this. However, there is little value to be had in repeatedly stating the RIPE NCC position or in debating the finer points of Mauritian law.
Instead, I will simply say that I agree with the text in your emails that advocates for community-driven, bottom-up principles, and that a properly functioning Internet Number Registry System benefits our members and those of the other RIRs. These are areas where there seems to be common ground between us, and I hope they will guide your actions as you pursue your agenda.
One famous mantra in our community is to "keep it simple". In a community of such diverse backgrounds and competing interests, keeping it simple is not just an abstract value but a practical means of allowing people to see the best outcomes and to make valuable contributions effectively.
The situation around AFRINIC has become anything but simple. There are numerous court cases brought by several parties. New organisations have sprung up to push the agendas of different individuals and groups through a wide range of media. There are governance issues to be resolved at AFRINIC.
In such an environment, missteps are likely to happen on all sides, leading to further noise. It is clear to me that the complexity itself is getting in the way of resolving matters to everyone's satisfaction.
So I will not presume to advise you on how to conduct your affairs in a different RIR region. However, I will ask you to keep in mind this mantra as you pursue your interests. Keep it simple. Leave room for people to focus on resolving the issues at hand.
Where I can be of assistance is in talking to AFRINIC and the other RIRs at the global level and making sure they are aware of the issues that you and others have raised here regarding the health of the Internet Number Registry System. This is obviously something that is important for us all.
Regards,
Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC
On 22 Jul 2022, at 17:12, Heng Lu <h.lu@outsideheaven.com> wrote:
Dear Hans:
Thank you for your response.
Members will be interested in your views on the recent revelation that suspended CEO of AFRINIC, Eddy, had sent a letter asking ATU to appoint directors for AFRINIC in an attempt to avoid member elect directors. This plea, coupled with the NRO letter seeking diplomatic immunity for AFRINIC, begs the question why not just let all RIR join the ITU?
You will got immunity from ITU or ATU or whichever governmental body that will appoint directors of RIR, and no member would ever be able to find justice in court.
The recent events and actions of AFRINIC and other RIR defies everything I, and some of the other members I was talking to, learned in this community. It goes against everything, that the bottom up and community driven approach that Rob told me on my first day of RIPE meeting a decade ago.
I hope to preserve the RIR system I grew up with. I hope you agree with that desire. At the end of the day, you were there when it was created and we need you to continue to fight for our independence from interference - regardless of where the requests for interference come from.
With regards
Lu
On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 9:05 PM Hans Petter Holen <hph@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear all,
I will respond where I can, although the RIPE NCC cannot speak for AFRINIC, and any statement on behalf of the NRO needs to be made jointly with the other four RIRs.
First, I would like to address the concerns about the language used in the NRO letter to the Mauritian government. It was not written in a tone that we would use under ordinary circumstances. The letter could have been worded better in parts, and it obviously led to our message being misconstrued. We take note of this and will do better in this regard.
Further, some of you have expressed concerns that this letter was an attempt by the NRO to interfere in the judicial processes of Mauritius. However, this was not the intention. As I said in my previous email, we simply wanted to lend weight to AFRINIC's request and help to ensure its ability to provide services to its members. In no way do we believe it is our place (or the NRO’s for that matter) to influence judicial processes in a sovereign nation.
Coming to the issue of “international status” for RIRs, this status can mean different things under different jurisdictions. The RIPE NCC has not requested "international status" from any Dutch or international body. What such status might mean for AFRINIC would be for the Mauritian government to evaluate. For the RIPE NCC, you, our members, are the ultimate governing body, and any potential changes to our legal status would be made in consultation with you.
I agree fully with comments that the issues with AFRINIC's governance need to be addressed and I want to reiterate that only the members of AFRINIC and the Internet community in Africa can resolve them. We encourage AFRINIC's members and community to contribute constructively to improve this situation.
All our efforts have been guided by the desire to support the stability of the global RIR system, which as Lu correctly points out, is a global, bottom-up, community-driven project. This is how the Internet has been built and, we hope, will continue to be governed.
Finally, this list is under moderation and we will continue to ensure that all mails that are put through to the list abide by the code of conduct.
Sincerely,
Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC
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Hi Hans Petter,
I will respond where I can, although the RIPE NCC cannot speak for AFRINIC, and any statement on behalf of the NRO needs to be made jointly with the other four RIRs.
First, I would like to address the concerns about the language used in the NRO letter to the Mauritian government. It was not written in a tone that we would use under ordinary circumstances. The letter could have been worded better in parts, and it obviously led to our message being misconstrued. We take note of this and will do better in this regard.
Thank you!
Further, some of you have expressed concerns that this letter was an attempt by the NRO to interfere in the judicial processes of Mauritius. However, this was not the intention. As I said in my previous email, we simply wanted to lend weight to AFRINIC's request and help to ensure its ability to provide services to its members. In no way do we believe it is our place (or the NRO’s for that matter) to influence judicial processes in a sovereign nation.
Coming to the issue of “international status” for RIRs, this status can mean different things under different jurisdictions. The RIPE NCC has not requested "international status" from any Dutch or international body. What such status might mean for AFRINIC would be for the Mauritian government to evaluate. For the RIPE NCC, you, our members, are the ultimate governing body, and any potential changes to our legal status would be made in consultation with you.
I agree fully with comments that the issues with AFRINIC's governance need to be addressed and I want to reiterate that only the members of AFRINIC and the Internet community in Africa can resolve them. We encourage AFRINIC's members and community to contribute constructively to improve this situation.
All our efforts have been guided by the desire to support the stability of the global RIR system, which as Lu correctly points out, is a global, bottom-up, community-driven project. This is how the Internet has been built and, we hope, will continue to be governed.
+1
Finally, this list is under moderation and we will continue to ensure that all mails that are put through to the list abide by the code of conduct.
I completely agree, it seems necessary for now. Cheers, and thank you, Sander
participants (6)
-
Elad Cohen -
Hans Petter Holen -
Heng Lu -
Lutz Donnerhacke -
Randy Bush -
Sander Steffann