Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme discussion
On 24/07/2012 20:38, Rob Golding wrote:
If we're going to "accelerate"the acceptance of IPv6 (which is in all of our interests) then anyone using PI IPv4 _probably_ needs some PI IPv6
If you're going to charge then for both you put an artificial barrier (doubling their cost), and they'll never want the v6 ...
Have you considered that one hour of engineering time would probably cost a company ~€150 - €300, including overheads? So your argument is that a cost equivalent to 10 minutes of engineering time for a company is too much for the company to bear if they want a provider independent v6 presence on the Internet. I'd respectfully suggest that if an organisation views €50 / annum as a serious barrier to adoption of a technology which is important to their business success, then that organisation has severe priority inversion problems.
There should be a differentiation in charge depending on assignment size, e.g. a /18 is charged more than a /24.
Why ?
What more work is there for RIPE to do ?
e.g. requests outside an assignment window. Can I suggest you read the RIPE Annual Report for 2011? It gives a breakdown of the annual expenditure for the company, including the registration services costs.
There is no need to charge for ASNs.
16bit ASNs are equally in short supply, and the majority of deployed routers don't understand longer ASNs
Intermediate routers don't need to understand ASN32 because that's handled by clever translation stuff. Edge routers which use an ASN32 as the local asn do need to understand ASN32 natively, but this support has been available on all cisco ios based platforms since 2009 and all juniper platforms since 2008. If you're running software this old on your transit routers, you have bigger problems. Nick
If we're going to "accelerate"the acceptance of IPv6 (which is in all of our interests) then anyone using PI IPv4 _probably_ needs some PI IPv6
If you're going to charge then for both you put an artificial barrier (doubling their cost), and they'll never want the v6 ...
Have you considered that one hour of engineering time would probably cost a company ~€150 - €300, including overheads?
Regarding IPv6 ... End users don’t know what it is, don’t appear to want it, from take up certainly don’t seem to need it, and basically don’t care about it - they just want their pr0n to turn up quickly.
So your argument is that a cost equivalent to 10 minutes of engineering time for a company is too much for the company to bear if they want a provider independent v6 presence on the Internet.
No, I'm saying they don’t want ipv6 at all as they see no requirement for it, then you add making them pay for it in addition to their ipv4 will get you the response (from experience) "no thanks, no-one uses that"
e.g. a /18 is charged more than a /24. Why ? What more work is there for RIPE to do ? e.g. requests outside an assignment window.
If my window is a /16 then the /18 is less work, than when your window is /26 and you request a /24 :p
Can I suggest you read the RIPE Annual Report for 2011?
Been there, done that, have my own opinions on the expenditure ...
local asn do need to understand ASN32 natively, but this support has been available on all cisco ios based platforms since 2009 and all juniper platforms since 2008. If you're running software this old on your transit routers, you have bigger problems.
You missed the point where I explained that we did all this 10 years ago ! 89% of the worlds desktops are running an OS which does things wrong with IPv6 DNS results when it gets a v6 result from DNS lookups and doesn’t have any v6 routes, so putting a site/service/system on ipv6 only cuts your potential audience by 9/10ths Deliberately putting people off of IPv6 by telling them they'll need expensive tech time (as you say) plus more contributions to ripe fees is not going to help takeup - my experience, YMMV Rob
24.07.12 23:20, Nick Hilliard написав(ла):
I'd respectfully suggest that if an organisation views €50 / annum as a serious barrier to adoption of a technology which is important to their business success, then that organisation has severe priority inversion problems.
You are right, but only if you mean the _commertial_ organisation. In transition or start-up period, educational, non-profit and amateur organisations is generating the human resource will push the transition. And yes, 50 EUR (+administrative expenses and procedures) can be a serious barrier for them. It might be a good idea to provide IPv6 PI for education organisations for free and without a lot of paperwork. At least, for several years.
* Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> [2012-07-25 12:27]:
You are right, but only if you mean the _commertial_ organisation.
In transition or start-up period, educational, non-profit and amateur organisations is generating the human resource will push the transition. And yes, 50 EUR (+administrative expenses and procedures) can be a serious barrier for them.
It might be a good idea to provide IPv6 PI for education organisations for free and without a lot of paperwork. At least, for several years.
Hello, I can't help but chime in there: If 50 EUR + adminstrative expenses/procedures are a problem, how will they connect their IPv6 PI to the rest of the internet? Regards Sebastian -- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-0 - Fax +49-911-9352-100 http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel, Hansjochen Klenk - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
25.07.12 15:35, Sebastian Wiesinger написав(ла):
It might be a good idea to provide IPv6 PI for education organisations for free and without a lot of paperwork. At least, for several years.
Hello, I can't help but chime in there:
If 50 EUR + adminstrative expenses/procedures are a problem, how will they connect their IPv6 PI to the rest of the internet?
For free, of course ;) Our company provide IP transit service to a few of that organisations (schools, children computer clubs, etc). It is usual case in ex-USSR, especially in Central Asia countries that have no or small education budgets, as well as no or small IPv6 penetration.
* Max Tulyev <president@ukraine.su> [2012-07-25 14:47]:
25.07.12 15:35, Sebastian Wiesinger написав(ла):
It might be a good idea to provide IPv6 PI for education organisations for free and without a lot of paperwork. At least, for several years.
Hello, I can't help but chime in there:
If 50 EUR + adminstrative expenses/procedures are a problem, how will they connect their IPv6 PI to the rest of the internet?
For free, of course ;)
Our company provide IP transit service to a few of that organisations (schools, children computer clubs, etc). It is usual case in ex-USSR, especially in Central Asia countries that have no or small education budgets, as well as no or small IPv6 penetration.
So why don't you charge them a smaller fee and pay the 50 EUR yourself as sponsoring LIR? Wouldn't that be a viable option? Regards Sebastian -- noris network AG - Thomas-Mann-Straße 16-20 - D-90471 Nürnberg Tel +49-911-9352-0 - Fax +49-911-9352-100 http://www.noris.de - The IT-Outsourcing Company Vorstand: Ingo Kraupa (Vorsitzender), Joachim Astel, Hansjochen Klenk - Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Stefan Schnabel - AG Nürnberg HRB 17689
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 02:35:12PM +0200, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
If 50 EUR + adminstrative expenses/procedures are a problem, how will they connect their IPv6 PI to the rest of the internet?
"Meh, what is 50 EUR" is a bit of a western-european view. The NCC service region does include areas where EUR50 is a *lot* of money. rgds, Sascha Luck
participants (5)
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Max Tulyev -
Nick Hilliard -
Rob Golding -
Sascha Luck -
Sebastian Wiesinger