LIR’s billing issues with RIPE NCC, need support
Dear RIPE NCC Members i.e. LIR! RIPE77 meeting is over but some questions still active and I want to bring them up for discussion. This is long-read, but please read it, it’s important. I work at ISP company and work a lot of with RIPE NCC as well as for LIR management and registrations. I want RIPE NCC become better for all LIRs and try to participate. For long time I face with RIPE NCC strange billing issues, and I feel not comfortable with them. I run ISP company and I understand how to manage customers and how usually billing for services of the IT company should work. I will try to split different issues in different emails. First I want to say that I tried to find an answer for my question from Finance department of the RIPE NCC, I spent a time for that and I found that it was not correct place for that. I was forwarded to RIPE NCC Board for such discussion. I wrote my experience at RIPE77 Meeting to the Board and got feedback that the ideas and facts I explained to them should be discussed in Members-Discuss list because they are not described in Policies. So that’s my try to do that. Let me show you several simple billing issues. They will be related to companies who pays much more than other companies to RIPE NCC. These are Multi LIR companies. Yes, everybody knows that company may have several LIR accounts at RIPE NCC if company pays membership and setup fees. This is quite normal and a lot of companies use this ability. Let’s start. What kind of issues do we have. Let me explain most important of them. 1) If a company want to do anything (transfer a part or merge with your existing company) with one of your LIRs RIPE NCC will ask you to pay till the end of the year for all LIRs. This is not fear and not correct because RIPE NCC really doesn’t give a LIR service for that companies. 2) Let’s say you just opened in December new one LIR for your company (and paid fees for the last 4th part of the year + setup fees) and want to do something with other LIR resources on account of the same company. RIPE NCC will ask to pay full year for LIR that were opened just in current year. What we have? You just get service for last part of the year but you should pay for membership for LIR for the time that it was not existed. This is insane for IT company to overcharge members for the past time. 3) If one company merge another one - they get still limitations for keeping several LIRs for several years. Such things should not happen. It was not so sometime before but now that happens. What I see? RIPE NCC overcharge LIRs. Why? It was not so some amount of time ago. RIPE NCC didn’t care about that, but they changed it without any discussion with members. Now I want to answer for Important question for those members who wish to start telling me about something else.... I will give you an answer here. All RIPE NCC members have the limit for changes/transfers and etc as 2 years (24 month) of hold time. If this time should be changed - it’s a way to Policy development process. Everybody believe that expenses for having extra LIR should be for 2 years (24 month), let’s say this is what we have and this delay is written in RIPE NCC documents. If we want to discuss this time - it's other one discussion. In real life this 2 years means 3 years (and usually *N). LIRs have to pay extra membership fees for (3-4 years)*N of LIRs, but not for 2 years as it should be. I find this unfair for LIRs. I want all LIRs have clear billing and pay for services/membership that we have really consumed. This is normal and correct to have clear and good billing. What do I suggest? I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any services for LIR instance. Please support me and reply to this email. Or write your opinion. I believe RIPE NCC should work better for LIRs. Your voice is important. Juri ------------ NTX DataCenter/Hosting +7 (499) 346-76-29
Il 04/12/2018 01:55, Juri ha scritto:
These are Multi LIR companies. Yes, everybody knows that company may have several LIR accounts at RIPE NCC if company pays membership and setup fees. This is quite normal and a lot of companies use this ability. From your email this seems an accepted fact of life. But I cannot easily imagine why on earth a company should have several LIR accounts. Yes, it may, but I don't agree that it is quite normal, even if I have an idea about the reasons. Our company exists since more than 30 years and we have always operated with a single LIR account. So if we remove the above sentence from your email, the following text is mainly irrelevant; every now and then the same things are said on this list, check the past posts, so you can already read the answers and we can skip all the remaining list traffic to be. It is the first time I say anything about this question, I am mainly worried about unsubscribing to the list if all the discussions are about fees for multi LIR (I dare to say 90% of the messages in the last year, as a personal feeling). Regards Paolo
* Juri <hostmaster@ntx.ru> [2018-12-04 08:09]:
I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any services for LIR instance.
The RIPE NCC fees are anually. As a convenience *to you* you can also pay them quarterly (we don't). This has been discussed multiple times. Regards Sebastian
Additional accounts are normally setup to get more IP Space -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Sebastian Wiesinger Sent: 04 December 2018 07:54 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] LIR’s billing issues with RIPE NCC, need support * Juri <hostmaster@ntx.ru> [2018-12-04 08:09]:
I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any services for LIR instance.
The RIPE NCC fees are anually. As a convenience *to you* you can also pay them quarterly (we don't). This has been discussed multiple times. Regards Sebastian _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/dave%40it-communicati...
Hi. The NCC earns money but tell us that it takes care about members and try to safe the last IPv4. If we want to have any changes we should become a part of management of the NCC and put forward our wishes. вт, 4 дек. 2018 г. в 12:45, Dave Benwell <dave@it-communicationsltd.co.uk>:
Additional accounts are normally setup to get more IP Space
-----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Sebastian Wiesinger Sent: 04 December 2018 07:54 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] LIR’s billing issues with RIPE NCC, need support
* Juri <hostmaster@ntx.ru> [2018-12-04 08:09]:
I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any services for LIR instance.
The RIPE NCC fees are anually. As a convenience *to you* you can also pay them quarterly (we don't). This has been discussed multiple times.
Regards
Sebastian
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-- ---------- Best regards, Alexey Bulgakov Tel.: +7 (926)690-87-29
Dear Juri, All, (please see inline) On Tue, 4 Dec 2018, Juri wrote: (...)
1) If a company want to do anything (transfer a part or merge with your existing company) with one of your LIRs RIPE NCC will ask you to pay till the end of the year for all LIRs. This is not fear and not correct because RIPE NCC really doesn?t give a LIR service for that companies.
As i understand it, the "multiple LIRs" feature was made possible after a lot of people circumvented the last /8 policy's spirit. The payments until the end of year in the case of transfers/mergers are just (in my understanding) a way of minimizing the effects of something which was inevitable...
2) Let?s say you just opened in December new one LIR for your company (and paid fees for the last 4th part of the year + setup fees) and want to do something with other LIR resources on account of the same company. RIPE NCC will ask to pay full year for LIR that were opened just in current year. What we have? You just get service for last part of the year but you should pay for membership for LIR for the time that it was not existed. This is insane for IT company to overcharge members for the past time.
I think these are the current rules, yes. As this relates to payments and the Association, i would say any changes need to run through the RIPE NCC's AGM. I have no problem with the current rules, but i understand they can be more costly to business models where ownership is not very stable.
3) If one company merge another one - they get still limitations for keeping several LIRs for several years. Such things should not happen. It was not so sometime before but now that happens.
But the current rules are clear, and the limitations are not subject to abusive interpretation from the RIPE NCC, right? Again, possibly through AGM's decisions the current rules can be changed. And i think you are also correct about these limitations being rather recent -- they were only placed after issues around the last /8, afaik.
What I see? RIPE NCC overcharge LIRs. Why? It was not so some amount of time ago. RIPE NCC didn?t care about that, but they changed it without any discussion with members.
Was this a decision by the Board (a former Board?) Or a decision taken at the RIPE NCC's AGM?
Now I want to answer for Important question for those members who wish to start telling me about something else.... I will give you an answer here. All RIPE NCC members have the limit for changes/transfers and etc as 2 years (24 month) of hold time. If this time should be changed - it?s a way to Policy development process. Everybody believe that expenses for having extra LIR should be for 2 years (24 month), let?s say this is what we have and this delay is written in RIPE NCC documents. If we want to discuss this time - it's other one discussion.
I guess 2 years was the compromise solution found when this was put in place. Some people would like to see 5 or 10, some people were pushing for less than 2, so there is always a need to find the value most people can live with, even if they aren't totally happy with it.
In real life this 2 years means 3 years (and usually *N). LIRs have to pay extra membership fees for (3-4 years)*N of LIRs, but not for 2 years as it should be. I find this unfair for LIRs. I want all LIRs have clear billing and pay for services/membership that we have really consumed. This is normal and correct to have clear and good billing.
I'm not sure if i understand. Is RIPE NCC mis-interpreting the current rules/policies?
What do I suggest?
I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any services for LIR instance.
Please support me and reply to this email. Or write your opinion. I believe RIPE NCC should work better for LIRs. Your voice is important.
I would like to have the option of multiple-year billing. i.e. pay for Jan/2019-Dec/2021, like it is possible for domain registration. But this is because our business model is stable, and i do understand different companies/organizations have different business models and different needs. Best Regards, Carlos Friaças
Juri ------------ NTX DataCenter/Hosting +7 (499) 346-76-29
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Dear Juri It's the first and last time I answer to this discussion. Three things: 1. You signed a contract. 2. We are talking about 1'400€, not 140'000€ per Year and LIR. 3. You could buy IP addresses. That's more expensive. Regards, Robert
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Juri Gesendet: Dienstag, 4. Dezember 2018 01:55 An: members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: [members-discuss] LIR’s billing issues with RIPE NCC, need support
Dear RIPE NCC Members i.e. LIR!
RIPE77 meeting is over but some questions still active and I want to bring them up for discussion. This is long-read, but please read it, it’s important.
I work at ISP company and work a lot of with RIPE NCC as well as for LIR management and registrations. I want RIPE NCC become better for all LIRs and try to participate. For long time I face with RIPE NCC strange billing issues, and I feel not comfortable with them. I run ISP company and I understand how to manage customers and how usually billing for services of the IT company should work.
I will try to split different issues in different emails.
First I want to say that I tried to find an answer for my question from Finance department of the RIPE NCC, I spent a time for that and I found that it was not correct place for that. I was forwarded to RIPE NCC Board for such discussion. I wrote my experience at RIPE77 Meeting to the Board and got feedback that the ideas and facts I explained to them should be discussed in Members-Discuss list because they are not described in Policies. So that’s my try to do that.
Let me show you several simple billing issues. They will be related to companies who pays much more than other companies to RIPE NCC. These are Multi LIR companies. Yes, everybody knows that company may have several LIR accounts at RIPE NCC if company pays membership and setup fees. This is quite normal and a lot of companies use this ability. Let’s start.
What kind of issues do we have. Let me explain most important of them.
1) If a company want to do anything (transfer a part or merge with your existing company) with one of your LIRs RIPE NCC will ask you to pay till the end of the year for all LIRs. This is not fear and not correct because RIPE NCC really doesn’t give a LIR service for that companies.
2) Let’s say you just opened in December new one LIR for your company (and paid fees for the last 4th part of the year + setup fees) and want to do something with other LIR resources on account of the same company. RIPE NCC will ask to pay full year for LIR that were opened just in current year. What we have? You just get service for last part of the year but you should pay for membership for LIR for the time that it was not existed. This is insane for IT company to overcharge members for the past time.
3) If one company merge another one - they get still limitations for keeping several LIRs for several years. Such things should not happen. It was not so sometime before but now that happens.
What I see? RIPE NCC overcharge LIRs. Why? It was not so some amount of time ago. RIPE NCC didn’t care about that, but they changed it without any discussion with members.
Now I want to answer for Important question for those members who wish to start telling me about something else.... I will give you an answer here. All RIPE NCC members have the limit for changes/transfers and etc as 2 years (24 month) of hold time. If this time should be changed - it’s a way to Policy development process. Everybody believe that expenses for having extra LIR should be for 2 years (24 month), let’s say this is what we have and this delay is written in RIPE NCC documents. If we want to discuss this time - it's other one discussion.
In real life this 2 years means 3 years (and usually *N). LIRs have to pay extra membership fees for (3-4 years)*N of LIRs, but not for 2 years as it should be. I find this unfair for LIRs. I want all LIRs have clear billing and pay for services/membership that we have really consumed. This is normal and correct to have clear and good billing.
What do I suggest?
I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any services for LIR instance.
Please support me and reply to this email. Or write your opinion. I believe RIPE NCC should work better for LIRs. Your voice is important.
Juri ------------ NTX DataCenter/Hosting +7 (499) 346-76-29
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Hello It is good to bring up issues for discussion. Its also important to remember that this is not a voting thread. This is not a new subject and its clear that the opinions differt greatly on this subject so i find it useless to bring up the subject again to this thread. Interested parties may bring this upto vote and all pros and cons can be discussed before possible voting. Best regards, Hans Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Puolesta Alexey Galaev Lähetetty: tiistai 4. joulukuuta 2018 14.39 Vastaanottaja: hostmaster@ntx.ru; members-discuss@ripe.net Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] LIR’s billing issues with RIPE NCC, need support Dear Juri. I totally support you. It is very important thing. Once LIR's pay additional 1-2 thousand EURO, now they just doing useless work with creating new companies. It does not help to save IP addresses. It does not help to the Internet. I hope RIPE NCC listen to our request. 04.12.2018, 10:10, "Juri" <hostmaster@ntx.ru<mailto:hostmaster@ntx.ru>>: Dear RIPE NCC Members i.e. LIR! RIPE77 meeting is over but some questions still active and I want to bring them up for discussion. This is long-read, but please read it, it’s important. I work at ISP company and work a lot of with RIPE NCC as well as for LIR management and registrations. I want RIPE NCC become better for all LIRs and try to participate. For long time I face with RIPE NCC strange billing issues, and I feel not comfortable with them. I run ISP company and I understand how to manage customers and how usually billing for services of the IT company should work. I will try to split different issues in different emails. First I want to say that I tried to find an answer for my question from Finance department of the RIPE NCC, I spent a time for that and I found that it was not correct place for that. I was forwarded to RIPE NCC Board for such discussion. I wrote my experience at RIPE77 Meeting to the Board and got feedback that the ideas and facts I explained to them should be discussed in Members-Discuss list because they are not described in Policies. So that’s my try to do that. Let me show you several simple billing issues. They will be related to companies who pays much more than other companies to RIPE NCC. These are Multi LIR companies. Yes, everybody knows that company may have several LIR accounts at RIPE NCC if company pays membership and setup fees. This is quite normal and a lot of companies use this ability. Let’s start. What kind of issues do we have. Let me explain most important of them. 1) If a company want to do anything (transfer a part or merge with your existing company) with one of your LIRs RIPE NCC will ask you to pay till the end of the year for all LIRs. This is not fear and not correct because RIPE NCC really doesn’t give a LIR service for that companies. 2) Let’s say you just opened in December new one LIR for your company (and paid fees for the last 4th part of the year + setup fees) and want to do something with other LIR resources on account of the same company. RIPE NCC will ask to pay full year for LIR that were opened just in current year. What we have? You just get service for last part of the year but you should pay for membership for LIR for the time that it was not existed. This is insane for IT company to overcharge members for the past time. 3) If one company merge another one - they get still limitations for keeping several LIRs for several years. Such things should not happen. It was not so sometime before but now that happens. What I see? RIPE NCC overcharge LIRs. Why? It was not so some amount of time ago. RIPE NCC didn’t care about that, but they changed it without any discussion with members. Now I want to answer for Important question for those members who wish to start telling me about something else.... I will give you an answer here. All RIPE NCC members have the limit for changes/transfers and etc as 2 years (24 month) of hold time. If this time should be changed - it’s a way to Policy development process. Everybody believe that expenses for having extra LIR should be for 2 years (24 month), let’s say this is what we have and this delay is written in RIPE NCC documents. If we want to discuss this time - it's other one discussion. In real life this 2 years means 3 years (and usually *N). LIRs have to pay extra membership fees for (3-4 years)*N of LIRs, but not for 2 years as it should be. I find this unfair for LIRs. I want all LIRs have clear billing and pay for services/membership that we have really consumed. This is normal and correct to have clear and good billing. What do I suggest? I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any services for LIR instance. Please support me and reply to this email. Or write your opinion. I believe RIPE NCC should work better for LIRs. Your voice is important. Juri ------------ NTX DataCenter/Hosting +7 (499) 346-76-29 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/perfectcloud.technolo...
I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any services for LIR instance.
In fact, RIPE should probably suggest using two-year payment period for a first-time payment to address the issue you are probably quite aware for and which is transparently referred many times through many threads started by different people. The amount of businesses which would have to cease operations over two-year span from taking the LIR role is quite negligible and raising the bar as twice as much for this moment should keep most people who like to take chunks from last /8 away simply because operational cost for transfers of these poor /24 will become too high and this part of activities, which is observed primarily in ex-CIS areas would become barely profitable. At least some people in the list may wonder why this kind of discussions are still taking a huge part of the conversation volumes, but the answer is simple - there is too many entry-level providers (I prefer to not use word 'ghetto-' to avoid possible insults) who are simply not capable to build decent v6-capable infrastructure because capital investments for the first-market hardware are beyond their capabilities for a given network topology or bandwidth demands. These ones are not strictly evil, but they are creating significant demand among others for small v4 chunks and conversation like this one is just a reflection of this demand. Since RIPE is not an organization whose purpose is a development or advertisement of an opensource sofrware stack which, to certain extent, could help third-market users to adopt v6 addressing (including accelerated CGNAT/routing and whatnot), the only one measures which possibly could be taken are restrictive ones.
Hi, On Tue, Dec 04, 2018 at 04:36:28PM +0300, Andrey Korolyov wrote:
prefer to not use word 'ghetto-' to avoid possible insults) who are simply not capable to build decent v6-capable infrastructure because capital investments for the first-market hardware are beyond their capabilities for a given network topology or bandwidth demands.
I slightly fail to follow this line of reasoning. IPv6 capable networking equipment has been around for 10+ years (20+, actually, but "production quality with most features you need available", 10+). So even if you run your networks on used Cisco 7200s (which have been EOLed 5 years ago and can be bought really cheap) you can deploy IPv6 just fine. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi, let me remind that implementing IPv6 on OUR network is not sufficient to switch off IPv4 on it. Until the last IPv4 resource somewhere in the world will be switched off, you have to support IPv4 on your network. And yes, you need IPv4 to do that. 04.12.18 17:52, Gert Doering пише:
Hi,
On Tue, Dec 04, 2018 at 04:36:28PM +0300, Andrey Korolyov wrote:
prefer to not use word 'ghetto-' to avoid possible insults) who are simply not capable to build decent v6-capable infrastructure because capital investments for the first-market hardware are beyond their capabilities for a given network topology or bandwidth demands.
I slightly fail to follow this line of reasoning. IPv6 capable networking equipment has been around for 10+ years (20+, actually, but "production quality with most features you need available", 10+).
So even if you run your networks on used Cisco 7200s (which have been EOLed 5 years ago and can be bought really cheap) you can deploy IPv6 just fine.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
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Hello Juri, I support what you wrote in your email. Any company with an additional LIR account(s) should pay only for period from date when LIR account activated by RIPE NCC. Best regards, Ivan Bulavkin On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 10:12 AM Juri <hostmaster@ntx.ru> wrote:
Dear RIPE NCC Members i.e. LIR!
RIPE77 meeting is over but some questions still active and I want to bring them up for discussion. This is long-read, but please read it, it’s important.
I work at ISP company and work a lot of with RIPE NCC as well as for LIR management and registrations. I want RIPE NCC become better for all LIRs and try to participate. For long time I face with RIPE NCC strange billing issues, and I feel not comfortable with them. I run ISP company and I understand how to manage customers and how usually billing for services of the IT company should work.
I will try to split different issues in different emails.
First I want to say that I tried to find an answer for my question from Finance department of the RIPE NCC, I spent a time for that and I found that it was not correct place for that. I was forwarded to RIPE NCC Board for such discussion. I wrote my experience at RIPE77 Meeting to the Board and got feedback that the ideas and facts I explained to them should be discussed in Members-Discuss list because they are not described in Policies. So that’s my try to do that.
Let me show you several simple billing issues. They will be related to companies who pays much more than other companies to RIPE NCC. These are Multi LIR companies. Yes, everybody knows that company may have several LIR accounts at RIPE NCC if company pays membership and setup fees. This is quite normal and a lot of companies use this ability. Let’s start.
What kind of issues do we have. Let me explain most important of them.
1) If a company want to do anything (transfer a part or merge with your existing company) with one of your LIRs RIPE NCC will ask you to pay till the end of the year for all LIRs. This is not fear and not correct because RIPE NCC really doesn’t give a LIR service H companies.
2) Let’s say you just opened in December new one LIR for your company (and paid fees for the last 4th part of the year + setup fees) and want to do something with other LIR resources on account of the same company. RIPE NCC will ask to pay full year for LIR that were opened just in current year. What we have? You just get service for last part of the year but you should pay for membership for LIR for the time that it was not existed. This is insane for IT company to overcharge members for the past time.
3) If one company merge another one - they get still limitations for keeping several LIRs for several years. Such things should not happen. It was not so sometime before but now that happens.
What I see? RIPE NCC overcharge LIRs. Why? It was not so some amount of time ago. RIPE NCC didn’t care about that, but they changed it without any discussion with members.
Now I want to answer for Important question for those members who wish to start telling me about something else.... I will give you an answer here. All RIPE NCC members have the limit for changes/transfers and etc as 2 years (24 month) of hold time. If this time should be changed - it’s a way to Policy development process. Everybody believe that expenses for having extra LIR should be for 2 years (24 month), let’s say this is what we have and this delay is written in RIPE NCC documents. If we want to discuss this time - it's other one discussion.
In real life this 2 years means 3 years (and usually *N). LIRs have to pay extra membership fees for (3-4 years)*N of LIRs, but not for 2 years as it should be. I find this unfair for LIRs. I want all LIRs have clear billing and pay for services/membership that we have really consumed. This is normal and correct to have clear and good billing.
What do I suggest?
I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any services for LIR instance.
Please support me and reply to this email. Or write your opinion. I believe RIPE NCC should work better for LIRs. Your voice is important.
Juri ------------ NTX DataCenter/Hosting +7 (499) 346-76-29
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Juri, I don't agree with your statements at all. As a LIR, you pay a yearly fee and those are per calendar year. As stated in the Articles of the Association: (https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-696) 6.6 If Membership ends in the course of a financial year of the Association, the annual contribution shall nevertheless remain due by the Member in full. As a measure to avoid defaulting on invoicing for the above, after a transfer, the yearly cost should be paid prior to any M&A or transfer. This wasn't the case a couple years ago, but due to abuse of a few, I don't see how this could be avoided otherwise. It is a clear and elegant solution imho. An organization that holds multiple LIRs for obvious reasons, should know the minimal cost upfront or look for the transfer market (as they will have to in 14 months from today) if they don't want the cost for an additional LIR. Regards, Erik Bais On 04/12/2018, 08:12, "members-discuss on behalf of Juri" <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net on behalf of hostmaster@ntx.ru> wrote: Dear RIPE NCC Members i.e. LIR! RIPE77 meeting is over but some questions still active and I want to bring them up for discussion. This is long-read, but please read it, it’s important. I work at ISP company and work a lot of with RIPE NCC as well as for LIR management and registrations. I want RIPE NCC become better for all LIRs and try to participate. For long time I face with RIPE NCC strange billing issues, and I feel not comfortable with them. I run ISP company and I understand how to manage customers and how usually billing for services of the IT company should work. I will try to split different issues in different emails. First I want to say that I tried to find an answer for my question from Finance department of the RIPE NCC, I spent a time for that and I found that it was not correct place for that. I was forwarded to RIPE NCC Board for such discussion. I wrote my experience at RIPE77 Meeting to the Board and got feedback that the ideas and facts I explained to them should be discussed in Members-Discuss list because they are not described in Policies. So that’s my try to do that. Let me show you several simple billing issues. They will be related to companies who pays much more than other companies to RIPE NCC. These are Multi LIR companies. Yes, everybody knows that company may have several LIR accounts at RIPE NCC if company pays membership and setup fees. This is quite normal and a lot of companies use this ability. Let’s start. What kind of issues do we have. Let me explain most important of them. 1) If a company want to do anything (transfer a part or merge with your existing company) with one of your LIRs RIPE NCC will ask you to pay till the end of the year for all LIRs. This is not fear and not correct because RIPE NCC really doesn’t give a LIR service for that companies. 2) Let’s say you just opened in December new one LIR for your company (and paid fees for the last 4th part of the year + setup fees) and want to do something with other LIR resources on account of the same company. RIPE NCC will ask to pay full year for LIR that were opened just in current year. What we have? You just get service for last part of the year but you should pay for membership for LIR for the time that it was not existed. This is insane for IT company to overcharge members for the past time. 3) If one company merge another one - they get still limitations for keeping several LIRs for several years. Such things should not happen. It was not so sometime before but now that happens. What I see? RIPE NCC overcharge LIRs. Why? It was not so some amount of time ago. RIPE NCC didn’t care about that, but they changed it without any discussion with members. Now I want to answer for Important question for those members who wish to start telling me about something else.... I will give you an answer here. All RIPE NCC members have the limit for changes/transfers and etc as 2 years (24 month) of hold time. If this time should be changed - it’s a way to Policy development process. Everybody believe that expenses for having extra LIR should be for 2 years (24 month), let’s say this is what we have and this delay is written in RIPE NCC documents. If we want to discuss this time - it's other one discussion. In real life this 2 years means 3 years (and usually *N). LIRs have to pay extra membership fees for (3-4 years)*N of LIRs, but not for 2 years as it should be. I find this unfair for LIRs. I want all LIRs have clear billing and pay for services/membership that we have really consumed. This is normal and correct to have clear and good billing. What do I suggest? I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any services for LIR instance. Please support me and reply to this email. Or write your opinion. I believe RIPE NCC should work better for LIRs. Your voice is important. Juri ------------ NTX DataCenter/Hosting +7 (499) 346-76-29 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ebais%40a2b-internet....
Hello Erik, I am just talking about clear and understandable billing, nothing more. If RIPE NCC want to charge for 3 years - let them charge for 3 years. if you they want to charge for 2 years - let them charge for 2. But I am strongly against when RIPE NCC each month decide something new and change billing way to unpredictable one. And RIPE NCC changes this billing issues upto them with out any discussion with LIRs. You are not facing with this and thinking in other way. I face with that lot of time and have a lot of feedback from other LIRs. And I just want billing ways will be predictable, described and clear for all RIPE NCC members. If RIPE NCC, as you say, bill for full years then they should bill for FULL years all the time, but not in case when organization want to do transfer/merge/structure update. Why companies does not need to pay full year if they setup LIR in the middle of the year? RIPE NCC desired so, so I want this be same for LIRs. LIRs are not happy if they requested to pay for the time they didn't use RIPE NCC services. RIPE NCC has a lot of bugs in the billing. I am just started with the most important ones. Do you know for example that when you setup LIR at end of the year you will not be charge this year? Is it obvious? Is it clear for LIRs ? No! That's why I am just kindly ask for possibility to have clear billing. And I kindly ask to split different things and not to mix them in one discussion. If you want to discuss hold time - it's another one place. I am talking here about billing for existing LIRs. It's the same opportunity for you and for other companies who pay much more then you to RIPE NCC for services. So you can you this ability as well as all other companies. And I am talking right to make RIPE NCC services better for LIRs. Juri.
On Wed, Dec 05, 2018 at 12:49:47AM +0300, Juri wrote:
Hello Erik,
I am just talking about clear and understandable billing, nothing more. If RIPE NCC want to charge for 3 years - let them charge for 3 years. if you they want to charge for 2 years - let them charge for 2.
But I am strongly against when RIPE NCC each month decide something new and change billing way to unpredictable one. And RIPE NCC changes this billing issues upto them with out any discussion with LIRs.
You are not facing with this and thinking in other way. I face with that lot of time and have a lot of feedback from other LIRs. And I just want billing ways will be predictable, described and clear for all RIPE NCC members.
That is not does in the way thay you say Each policy is done after policy proposal, discussions in mailing list or workgroups, voting on RIPE meetings. This is not about RIPE decision, it is about LIR's decision based on the majority of votes. Basic old rule (a lot time before the last /8 was reached) is that if you need more space, you need to prove that your old space is used and that you really need more space for your LIR, not for reselling. And it didn't basically change for years. IP space is not the subject of buyung|selling. -- VOKS LTD
And I am talking right to make RIPE NCC services better for LIRs.
Juri.
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Hello.
Each policy is done after policy proposal, discussions in mailing list or workgroups, voting on RIPE meetings. This is not about RIPE decision, it is about LIR's decision based on the majority of votes.
Let me disagree with you. Many decisions made on the Executive Board Meetings, where is the management only and there aren't any votes or discussions between the members. E.g. step by step open additional LIR accounts, duplicate accounts in case of the M&A procedure between different organizations and so on. You can find it in the official documentation here https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2018/draft-minutes-118... чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 14:12, Yakimus // VOKS support <ripe@voks.ua>:
On Wed, Dec 05, 2018 at 12:49:47AM +0300, Juri wrote:
Hello Erik,
I am just talking about clear and understandable billing, nothing more. If RIPE NCC want to charge for 3 years - let them charge for 3 years. if you they want to charge for 2 years - let them charge for 2.
But I am strongly against when RIPE NCC each month decide something new and change billing way to unpredictable one. And RIPE NCC changes this billing issues upto them with out any discussion with LIRs.
You are not facing with this and thinking in other way. I face with that lot of time and have a lot of feedback from other LIRs. And I just want billing ways will be predictable, described and clear for all RIPE NCC members.
That is not does in the way thay you say Each policy is done after policy proposal, discussions in mailing list or workgroups, voting on RIPE meetings. This is not about RIPE decision, it is about LIR's decision based on the majority of votes.
Basic old rule (a lot time before the last /8 was reached) is that if you need more space, you need to prove that your old space is used and that you really need more space for your LIR, not for reselling. And it didn't basically change for years. IP space is not the subject of buyung|selling.
-- VOKS LTD
And I am talking right to make RIPE NCC services better for LIRs.
Juri.
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-- ---------- Best regards, Alexey Bulgakov Tel.: +7 (926)690-87-29
Dear RIPE NCC Member,
Basic old rule (a lot time before the last /8 was reached) is that if you need more space, you need to prove that your old space is used and that you really need more space for your LIR, not for reselling. And it didn't basically change for years.
Did you follow the discussion in the APWG? Old rule isn't a dogma, so it can be changed.
IP space is not the subject of buyung|selling.
Seriously? Do you think all the transfers are done free of charge? -- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
Hi. I thought that the membership cannot be double or triple and so on. But when the NCC ask to pay for multiple accounts it looks so. If you are the member, you must pay once. Also it is strange that the member should pay for the membership for the period when he hasn't been the member. Any government inspection can lead to problems. пт, 7 дек. 2018 г. в 10:03, Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz>:
Dear RIPE NCC Member,
Basic old rule (a lot time before the last /8 was reached) is that if you need more space, you need to prove that your old space is used and that you really need more space for your LIR, not for reselling. And it didn't basically change for years.
Did you follow the discussion in the APWG? Old rule isn't a dogma, so it can be changed.
IP space is not the subject of buyung|selling.
Seriously? Do you think all the transfers are done free of charge?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
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-- ---------- Best regards, Alexey Bulgakov Tel.: +7 (926)690-87-29
Membership fee is a yearly fee. When you sign a contract, you should read it before. If you decide to signup in november, you have to accept to pay the yearly fee. In case, you think you "lost" any value, don't worry, just wait with signup to 1st of January. What's the problem with it? In our country, highway fees are payed for the following termines: weekly, monthly and yearly. What do you think, a goverment inspection would find any issues if they sell a yearly ticket for 2018 in november? No. :-) On 2019. 01. 18. 18:42, Aleksey Bulgakov wrote:
Hi.
I thought that the membership cannot be double or triple and so on. But when the NCC ask to pay for multiple accounts it looks so. If you are the member, you must pay once.
Also it is strange that the member should pay for the membership for the period when he hasn't been the member. Any government inspection can lead to problems.
пт, 7 дек. 2018 г. в 10:03, Sergey Myasoedov <kaa@net-art.cz>:
Dear RIPE NCC Member,
Basic old rule (a lot time before the last /8 was reached) is that if you need more space, you need to prove that your old space is used and that you really need more space for your LIR, not for reselling. And it didn't basically change for years. Did you follow the discussion in the APWG? Old rule isn't a dogma, so it can be changed.
IP space is not the subject of buyung|selling. Seriously? Do you think all the transfers are done free of charge?
-- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov
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-- Üdvözlettel, Best Regards, ]=============================.signature===================[ Ifj. Varasdy Imre Microsystem-Kecskemet Kft. Wire:36 76 900 000 Wireless Internet Service Division
If you decide to signup in november, you have to accept to pay the yearly fee.
My reading of it is that whilst the fee is Annual, _joining_ later in the year reduces it pro-rata to the period for which you are a member.
Also it is strange that the member should pay for the membership for the period when he hasn't been the member. Any government inspection can lead to problems.
The current "you have to pay for a couple more years" wording needs looking at - a simple "minimum membership period is 3 years" would I expect fix the disputable/legal ramifications, as the current setup isn't allowed in the UK for example (you cannot charge for a service that you do not, will not or cannot supply - so if the member no longer exists, you cannot supply them membership, so you cannot charge) I'm not (personally) in favour of the Annual-only payment option - quite the opposite - with advances in automation/technology RIPE should be looking at more payment options not less - if 50% of bills get queried, that is a serious problem, and the fix is wit the billing/invoice/automation/processes , not IMHO with the membership as such However the bulk of "pricing" discussions do tend to devolve into arguments about circumventing policy on resources ! Rob --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
The current "you have to pay for a couple more years" wording needs looking at - a simple "minimum membership period is 3 years" would I expect fix the disputable/legal ramifications, as the current setup isn't allowed in the UK for example (you cannot charge for a service that you do not, will not or cannot supply - so if the member no longer exists, you cannot supply them membership, so you cannot charge)
This is not an issue because it is allowed in the UK. Membership is not a service, and it is also not "supplied" to anyone. Membership entitles the member to voting rights and the possibility to request resources according to policies that passed a vote open to all members. But the membership itself is NOT a service. The fees members pay are used to fund RIPE's services, but those services are not provided to its members. RIPE's services are provided to the global Internet. So, a member is not paying RIPE for resources or any other service; one becomes a member to join in the governance, and help fund the services, of RIPE. You are confusing a RIPE membership with something like a gym "membership", which is not really a membership but (legally) a subscription. The two are very different. -- Regards, Terrence Koeman, PhD/MTh/BPsy Darkness Reigns (Holding) B.V. Please quote relevant replies.
Hi. Every where we can hear that the RIPE NCC is non-commercial organization, but let's look deeper: all members sign the Standard Service Agreement that means that the RIPE NCC provides some services. As you know, the company, who provides services, is commercial if it isn't a Charity organization only. сб, 19 янв. 2019 г., 3:35 Terrence Koeman terrence@darkness-reigns.com:
The current "you have to pay for a couple more years" wording needs looking at - a simple "minimum membership period is 3 years" would I expect fix the disputable/legal ramifications, as the current setup isn't allowed in the UK for example (you cannot charge for a service that you do not, will not or cannot supply - so if the member no longer exists, you cannot supply them membership, so you cannot charge)
This is not an issue because it is allowed in the UK. Membership is not a service, and it is also not "supplied" to anyone. Membership entitles the member to voting rights and the possibility to request resources according to policies that passed a vote open to all members. But the membership itself is NOT a service.
The fees members pay are used to fund RIPE's services, but those services are not provided to its members. RIPE's services are provided to the global Internet. So, a member is not paying RIPE for resources or any other service; one becomes a member to join in the governance, and help fund the services, of RIPE.
You are confusing a RIPE membership with something like a gym "membership", which is not really a membership but (legally) a subscription. The two are very different.
-- Regards, Terrence Koeman, PhD/MTh/BPsy Darkness Reigns (Holding) B.V.
Please quote relevant replies.
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Hi Aleksey,
Every where we can hear that the RIPE NCC is non-commercial organization, but let's look deeper: all members sign the Standard Service Agreement that means that the RIPE NCC provides some services. As you know, the company, who provides services, is commercial if it isn't a Charity organization only.
You are making no sense. You don't have to be commercial (intend to make a profit) to provide services. And "non-commercial" doesn't necessarily mean "charity". You are mixing up stuff. Please stop this nonsense, Cheers, Sander
participants (20)
-
Aleksey Bulgakov -
Alexey Galaev -
Andrey Korolyov -
Carlos Friaças -
Dave Benwell -
Erik Bais -
Gert Doering -
Hans Govenius -
Ipmgmt.res＠swisscom.com -
Ivan Bulavkin -
Juri -
Max Tulyev -
Paolo Prandini -
Rob Golding -
Sander Steffann -
Sebastian Wiesinger -
Sergey Myasoedov -
Terrence Koeman -
Varasdy Imre Csaba -
Yakimus // VOKS support