Thanks Hank for the question, I was about to ask the same and thanks Andrea for the answers. I want to make sure I understood, the "orphaned" resources, such as ASNUM for instance, will be able to contact and sign a contract directly with RIPE? If yes, then why will any of them opt to sign with a LIR if they can be fully independent and work directly with RIPE? What happens with some ASNUMs that are nowadays belonging to the Afrinic geographical zone? Is it possible to "transfer" an ASNUM resource from RIPE to Afrinic or any other? Thanks, Ziv -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-admin@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Andrea Cima Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 3:28 PM To: Hank Nussbacher Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Re: [ncc-announce] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2010 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dear Hank, The main focus points of Phase 2 of this policy implementation are to ensure there is a contract in place between End Users and their sponsoring LIR, and allowing LIRs to exclude from their 2010 billing fee independent Internet number resources linked to End Users that are not customers of the LIR. As you mention, resources of End Users who do not have a contract in place with an LIR or with the RIPE NCC by 31 December 2009 will be considered "orphaned". The RIPE NCC will start contacting the End Users of those independent Internet number resources in 2010 (Phase 3 of the policy implementation), asking them to sign a contract either with a sponsoring LIR or with the RIPE NCC. The exact timeline will depend on the number of "orphaned" resources. We are currently preparing different scenarios based on current statistics. A procedure for "orphaned" End User resources with regards to timelines and (de-)registration details will be published in advance. If you have any further feedback or questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. Kind regards, Andrea Cima RIPE NCC Hank Nussbacher wrote:

At 16:05 13/07/2009 +0200, Axel Pawlik wrote:

Can someone point me to the docs in regards to what happens to resources a LIR marks as "not my customer"? According to http://www.ripe.net/rs/pi-existing-assignments.html on Dec 31, 2009 RIPE will consider those resources as orphans and contact the end users. What happens then? How long does the end user have to sign on with RIPE? At what point will RIPE revoke the allocations? Is there a doc on that entire procedure and timeline we can give customers?

Regards, Hank

...

Dear Colleagues,

The RIPE NCC has formulated a Draft Charging Scheme 2010 that will take into account the requirements of policy proposal 2007-01, "Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC", and the discussions that took place at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2009 regarding the 2010 Charging Scheme.

The proposed Draft Charging Scheme 2010 is now available to view at: http://www.ripe.net/membership/billing/draft-charging-scheme-2010.html

Membership discussion of the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 proposal can take place at <members-discuss@ripe.net>.

The RIPE NCC Executive Board will monitor discussion and input from the RIPE NCC membership before publishing a final version of the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 by 9 September 2009. The RIPE NCC membership will vote on this version at the RIPE NCC General Meeting on 7 October 2009.

The RIPE NCC notes that this proposal for the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 is subject to change based on advice from the RIPE NCC's lawyers on tax and legal issues.

For more information, please see the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 FAQs: http://www.ripe.net/info/faq/membership/charging-scheme.html

Best regards,

Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC

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On Thu, 16 Jul 2009, Ziv Leyes wrote: If I understand correctly, an end user would have to pay RIPE 1300Euro in the 1st year whereas if you migrate the ASN to an upstream ISP that is a LIR, then that LIR would have an extra 50Euro/yr cost which they would gladly charge the end user 100Euro/yr - they make a profit and the end user saves a ton of money and a ton of forms to fill out with RIPE. -Hank

Thanks Hank for the question, I was about to ask the same and thanks Andrea for the answers. I want to make sure I understood, the "orphaned" resources, such as ASNUM for instance, will be able to contact and sign a contract directly with RIPE? If yes, then why will any of them opt to sign with a LIR if they can be fully independent and work directly with RIPE? What happens with some ASNUMs that are nowadays belonging to the Afrinic geographical zone? Is it possible to "transfer" an ASNUM resource from RIPE to Afrinic or any other? Thanks, Ziv

-----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-admin@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Andrea Cima Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 3:28 PM To: Hank Nussbacher Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Re: [ncc-announce] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2010

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Dear Hank,

The main focus points of Phase 2 of this policy implementation are to ensure there is a contract in place between End Users and their sponsoring LIR, and allowing LIRs to exclude from their 2010 billing fee independent Internet number resources linked to End Users that are not customers of the LIR.

As you mention, resources of End Users who do not have a contract in place with an LIR or with the RIPE NCC by 31 December 2009 will be considered "orphaned".

The RIPE NCC will start contacting the End Users of those independent Internet number resources in 2010 (Phase 3 of the policy implementation), asking them to sign a contract either with a sponsoring LIR or with the RIPE NCC. The exact timeline will depend on the number of "orphaned" resources. We are currently preparing different scenarios based on current statistics.

A procedure for "orphaned" End User resources with regards to timelines and (de-)registration details will be published in advance.

If you have any further feedback or questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Kind regards,

Andrea Cima RIPE NCC

Hank Nussbacher wrote:

...

At 16:05 13/07/2009 +0200, Axel Pawlik wrote:

Can someone point me to the docs in regards to what happens to resources a LIR marks as "not my customer"? According to http://www.ripe.net/rs/pi-existing-assignments.html on Dec 31, 2009 RIPE will consider those resources as orphans and contact the end users. What happens then? How long does the end user have to sign on with RIPE? At what point will RIPE revoke the allocations? Is there a doc on that entire procedure and timeline we can give customers?

Regards, Hank

...

Dear Colleagues,

The RIPE NCC has formulated a Draft Charging Scheme 2010 that will take into account the requirements of policy proposal 2007-01, "Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC", and the discussions that took place at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May 2009 regarding the 2010 Charging Scheme.

The proposed Draft Charging Scheme 2010 is now available to view at: http://www.ripe.net/membership/billing/draft-charging-scheme-2010.html

Membership discussion of the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 proposal can take place at <members-discuss@ripe.net>.

The RIPE NCC Executive Board will monitor discussion and input from the RIPE NCC membership before publishing a final version of the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 by 9 September 2009. The RIPE NCC membership will vote on this version at the RIPE NCC General Meeting on 7 October 2009.

The RIPE NCC notes that this proposal for the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 is subject to change based on advice from the RIPE NCC's lawyers on tax and legal issues.

For more information, please see the Draft Charging Scheme 2010 FAQs: http://www.ripe.net/info/faq/membership/charging-scheme.html

Best regards,

Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC

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Hello, Concerning the presentation on voting options made in may 2009, i may only approve the goal of having a process that allow to have a better representation of all RIPE members on the board. I have found the list of all current and past board persons : http://www.ripe.net/info/ncc/board/ http://www.ripe.net/info/ncc/board/previous.html Q1-May i ask to add to these tables for the current and past board people, which RIPE members they are from (as members are quite often organisations) and which billing categories are these members ? Concerning the possible process for board members, there is a 4th solution that is at the same time simple and that allow the best representativity. This is the process that is used for justice courts "JURY", and also the root of "democracy" in ancient greek times : having a random drawing between all members. This is at same time simple (just needing a hat, big enough for 6000 members ;-) and allow that anybody can be elected. Statistic laws ensure for representativity. Q2- May i ask to include the "Random drawing" process in the next presentation of board building process ? Thanks a lot, Best regards, -- __Bernard DUGAS ______________________________________________________ | IS Production s.a. Innovative Solutions | | Technoparc Pays de Gex bernard.dugas.2009@is-production.com | | 01633 ST GENIS POUILLY CEDEX - FRANCE - Mob.: +33 615 333 770 | | PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL ! ATTENTION NOUVEL EMAIL ! | |______________________________________________________________________|

Rob Evans wrote:

...

Concerning the possible process for board members, there is a 4th solution that is at the same time simple and that allow the best representativity. This is the process that is used for justice courts "JURY", and also the root of "democracy" in ancient greek times : having a random drawing between all members.

Forgive me, I'm struggling to see the similarity between a jury and the RIPE NCC executive board. A closer comparison would be between a council or government and the board.

Even now, a court jury may decide of life and death, what is more important ? I don't believe there are many countries or regions where the

former is taken from a random selection of the population

The original "democracy" was based on random selection in greece : this was to avoid that economical powers would ridge the election process through influences... The current political election process is no democracy, this is beauty contest and psychology warfare, where the most you ads and frighten people, the most you win. I'm not telling that RIPE elections are like that :-) But don't take current political process as a model... -- many people

don't want to do it,

Anybody may and can refuse. Just take the next, like in jury. or don't have the skills to do it, Do you think that all current elected political people have some skills out from being good actors ? even though they

have a vested interest in the outcome. The purpose of an election is for the members to choose who they wish to represent them in the governing body.

I don't know personnally anybody in the current board, how can i choose and judge their skills ? The result is that i have not voted until now, because i don't know anybody and the cost to go to the GM meeting is too high... And currently, i am not sure the current board is representing the members : how many boards members are from ExtraSmall and Small categories ? This is why i ask to know which RIPE members are representing the current boards members. Best regards, -- __Bernard DUGAS ______________________________________________________ | IS Production s.a. Innovative Solutions | | Technoparc Pays de Gex bernard.dugas.2009@is-production.com | | 01633 ST GENIS POUILLY CEDEX - FRANCE - Mob.: +33 615 333 770 | | PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL ! ATTENTION NOUVEL EMAIL ! | |______________________________________________________________________|

At 11:10 21/07/2009 +0100, Nigel Titley wrote:

In all seriousness though. If you wish to open a discussion on the election process, then this is the list to do it on. Note that the current board has taken the step of encouraging the NCC to make announcements on this list rather than just making them at general meetings. This is in order to encourage open debate. I'm pleased to see that this is having some effect. ...

...

The result is that i have not voted until now, because i don't know anybody and the cost to go to the GM meeting is too high... The proxy voting system allows you to vote remotely, but of course if you don't know us then, as you say, a vote is pointless.

How about the matter of electronic voting that I had raised previously? Why can't that be implemented? -Hank

Rob Evans wrote:

...

Concerning the possible process for board members, there is a 4th solution that is at the same time simple and that allow the best representativity. This is the process that is used for justice courts "JURY", and also the root of "democracy" in ancient greek times : having a random drawing between all members.

Forgive me, I'm struggling to see the similarity between a jury and the RIPE NCC executive board. A closer comparison would be between a council or government and the board.

Even now, a court jury may decide of life and death, what is more important ? I don't believe there are many countries or regions where the

former is taken from a random selection of the population

The original "democracy" was based on random selection in greece : this was to avoid that economical powers would ridge the election process through influences... The current political election process is no democracy, this is beauty contest and psychology warfare, where the most you ads and frighten people, the most you win. I'm not telling that RIPE elections are like that :-) But don't take current political process as a model... -- many people

don't want to do it,

Anybody may and can refuse. Just take the next, like in jury. or don't have the skills to do it, Do you think that all current elected political people have some skills out from being good actors ? even though they

have a vested interest in the outcome. The purpose of an election is for the members to choose who they wish to represent them in the governing body.

I don't know personnally anybody in the current board, how can i choose and judge their skills ? The result is that i have not voted until now, because i don't know anybody and the cost to go to the GM meeting is too high... And currently, i am not sure the current board is representing the members : how many boards members are from ExtraSmall and Small categories ? This is why i ask to know which RIPE members are representing the current boards members. Best regards, -- __Bernard DUGAS ______________________________________________________ | IS Production s.a. Innovative Solutions | | Technoparc Pays de Gex bernard.dugas.2009@is-production.com | | 01633 ST GENIS POUILLY CEDEX - FRANCE - Mob.: +33 615 333 770 | | PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL ! ATTENTION NOUVEL EMAIL ! | |______________________________________________________________________|

I don't see any reference to Early Registration Transfer project objects. Are PIs that were involved in ERX considered "orphaned" by default?

In the version of 2007-01 that was eventually approved, resources that were not allocated by the RIPE NCC (i.e. pre-date the RIRs) are expressly excluded and not subject to the fees. "This proposal does not cover number resources marked in the RIPE database as Early Registration (ERX) or NOT-SET. It also does not cover number resources listed in the RIPE database which were assigned by InterNIC or assigned or allocated by other Regional Internet Registries." We have had a couple of interesting discussions with the hostmasters as this information was filtered through. :) Rob -- JANET(UK) is a trading name of The JNT Association, a company limited by guarantee which is registered in England under No. 2881024 and whose Registered Office is at Lumen House, Library Avenue, Harwell Science and Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire. OX11 0SG