Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
Hello everyone, First of all, thanks to everyone working on these proposals. I’ve been silent in the RIPE community so far, but I tried to read most of the messages in this thread. I thought it might come in handy to leave my two cents as well. For the first matter, this actual proposal. I tend to agree with model 2, except for the categories. If you are assigning points to various resources to get to a category, you might as well assign prices to that resource, and invoice those tariffs. I would expect the amount of IP’s to be in balance with the size of a member. Which makes the invoice fair (although we’re completely ignoring the fact of different economical circumstances in the RIPE region). I would like to see a different price for IPv4 (not sure if anyone is actually still using those ;)), and a lower price for IPv6 after the first /32 allocation. Then there is the matter of the actual tariffs. There’s been a lot of feedback on the tariff being too high, and a connection to the budget. I think the hight of the tariff would be less important if members have the sense that the budget is in balance. The issue is, members are in charge of the budget. Members decide on the activity plan each year, as you can see on [1], page 2. I’ve looked at the archives of this mailing list. There has been one discussion on this list on the activity plan since 2013. One. I’ve also looked at https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2022/livestrea..., where the budget has been presented, there were no questions. None. If you disagree with the amount of money RIPE is spending (which I completely understand, I have some concerns too), schedule ‘Read the ncc-announce mailinglist’ for every day in September, and respond to that. We might even setup a discussion here beforehand, so the board can take the input into account before setting up the budget. [1]: https://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-786.pdf — Mark Schouten, CTO Tuxis B.V. mark@tuxis.nl / +31 318 200208 ------ Original Message ------
From "Simon Jan Haytink" <simon@ripe.net> To ncc-announce@ripe.net Date 3/7/2023 10:35:22 AM Subject [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
Dear RIPE NCC members,
We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023.
In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers.
The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership.
One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members.
To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as:
Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model.
You can download the Excel sheet from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/mem...
We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years.
I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss@ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.
The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations
I look forward to your input.
Kind regards,
Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC
Summary
7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023
References
Open House and Survey Results https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-cha...
Presentation at General Meeting https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentation...
Wieger Bontekoe <wieger.bontekoe@productsup.com> 5:58 PM (1 hour ago) to Mark Hello Mark, *"For the first matter, this actual proposal. I tend to agree with model 2, except for the categories. If you are assigning points to various resources to get to a category, you might as well assign prices to that resource, and invoice those tariffs. I would expect the amount of IP’s to be in balance with the size of a member. "* I am very curious what you mean by this, do you mean that a large customer (based on higher numbers) should also pay lower rates? I hope not? *Wieger Bontekoe* Principal Site Reliability Engineer wieger.bontekoe@productsup.com www.productsup.com *Products Up GmbH* A globally operative company - *office locations* <https://www.productsup.com/contact-us/> HQ: Alex-Wedding-Str. 5, 10178 Berlin, Germany HRB 214376 B Berlin Charlottenburg; VAT ID DE270578435; Tax No. 30/479/35480 Managing Directors: Vincent Peters, Stefan Sonntag On Fri, Mar 24, 2023 at 1:09 PM Mark Schouten via members-discuss < members-discuss@ripe.net> wrote:
Hello everyone,
First of all, thanks to everyone working on these proposals. I’ve been silent in the RIPE community so far, but I tried to read most of the messages in this thread. I thought it might come in handy to leave my two cents as well.
For the first matter, this actual proposal. I tend to agree with model 2, except for the categories. If you are assigning points to various resources to get to a category, you might as well assign prices to that resource, and invoice those tariffs. I would expect the amount of IP’s to be in balance with the size of a member. Which makes the invoice fair (although we’re completely ignoring the fact of different economical circumstances in the RIPE region). I would like to see a different price for IPv4 (not sure if anyone is actually still using those ;)), and a lower price for IPv6 after the first /32 allocation.
Then there is the matter of the actual tariffs. There’s been a lot of feedback on the tariff being too high, and a connection to the budget. I think the hight of the tariff would be less important if members have the sense that the budget is in balance. The issue is, members are in charge of the budget. Members decide on the activity plan each year, as you can see on [1], page 2.
I’ve looked at the archives of this mailing list. There has been one discussion on this list on the activity plan since 2013. One.
I’ve also looked at
https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2022/livestrea...,
where the budget has been presented, there were no questions. None.
If you disagree with the amount of money RIPE is spending (which I completely understand, I have some concerns too), schedule ‘Read the ncc-announce mailinglist’ for every day in September, and respond to that. We might even setup a discussion here beforehand, so the board can take the input into account before setting up the budget.
[1]: https://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-786.pdf
— Mark Schouten, CTO Tuxis B.V. mark@tuxis.nl / +31 318 200208
------ Original Message ------ From "Simon Jan Haytink" <simon@ripe.net> To ncc-announce@ripe.net Date 3/7/2023 10:35:22 AM Subject [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
Dear RIPE NCC members,
We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May
In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our
members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers.
The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the
war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership.
One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on
the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members.
To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to
assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as:
Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC
Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR
account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own
situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model.
You can download the Excel sheet from:
https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/mem...
We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in
March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years.
I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the
Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss@ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.
The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations
I look forward to your input.
Kind regards,
Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC
Summary
7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme
model
21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023
References
Open House and Survey Results
https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-cha...
Presentation at General Meeting
https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentation...
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/wieger.bontekoe%40pro...
Hi, "For the first matter, this actual proposal. I tend to agree with model 2, except for the categories. If you are assigning points to various resources to get to a category, you might as well assign prices to that resource, and invoice those tariffs. I would expect the amount of IP’s to be in balance with the size of a member. " I am very curious what you mean by this, do you mean that a large customer (based on higher numbers) should also pay lower rates? I hope not? I mean that larger organisations will probably have more IPs, and thus pay more. The price should be at least the same, preferably higher. If that bothers them, it's a nice incentive to migrate to IPv6 and dump the IPv4 on the market, which enables new organisations to start deploying as well. -- Mark Schouten CTO, Tuxis B.V. | https://www.tuxis.nl/ <mark@tuxis.nl> | +31 318 200208
participants (2)
-
Mark Schouten -
Wieger Bontekoe