Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 (fwd)
It's not charging retroactively. Retroactively charging for the PI space would be sending invoices out for every year from '92 to to date, which is not happening.
What is happening that the price has changed from 0 to 50 EUR/year (well, the draft price).
mind you that PI registrants never agreed to any contract that allows "price changes" and that "choosing" to have their allocations removeed instead of either paying a LIR, with whom they would usually have an agreement that only covers a one time payment, or several thousand euros to ripe directly, OR GIVE UP THEIR ALLOCATIONS and therefore cause significant damage to their business :P is pure blackmail. you cant first tell someone "sure we will register ip sppace for your company, please pay 2500 euros which covers our work and the first 2 years in which potentially our ripe-score could be affected by this registration (PI and AS numbers only count for 2 years in the score), and then go "oops, now you have to either pay a few 1000 to ripe OR a few hundred to us (most customers have as numberrs AND PI space)"... thats blackmail. also ARIN doesnt charge their "new" DirectAssignment fee to "old" direct assignments, and ripe never tried to bill PRE-RIR registrations either. there probably is a very good reason for that... implementing a new pricelist? fine.. but only for new customers. mind you: direct assignments can be revoked if their use is no longer in agreement with the original provided reasons, so there is no problem in checking all of them if they are actually used for the original purpose, there is a problem in forcing people to pay and threatten to remove their ip assignments if they dont, if there are no agreements covering that. -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Thu, 18 Jun 2009, Martin List-Petersen wrote:
Hank Nussbacher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2009, Andrea Cima wrote:
4) " - Direct assignments will have a recurring charge per assignment and the fee will be EUR 50 per direct assignment" - Operates for all direct assignments? or Only new direct assignments (included after 3 May, 2009)?
All Assignments made since 1992 will be included.
I have stated it before and I'll state it again - changing the billing rules retroactively is wrong. Maybe even EU legally wrong. Allocations made in the 1990s should not be billed. By all means recover unannounced allocations by whatever means necessary, but charging LIRs for allocations made in 1995 is wrong.
It's not charging retroactively. Retroactively charging for the PI space would be sending invoices out for every year from '92 to to date, which is not happening.
What is happening that the price has changed from 0 to 50 EUR/year (well, the draft price).
It's like an update of pricing or the terms and conditions, so you can consider to either give your allocation back and won't be charged in the future or you'll pay the price.
This has nothing to do with retroactively charging. It's just a change of the fee from now and on.
Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen -- Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair http://www.airwire.ie Phone: 091-865 968
X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net"
Salut, On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 09:50:40PM +0000, Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote:
you cant first tell someone "sure we will register ip sppace for your company, please pay 2500 euros which covers our work and the first 2 years in which potentially our ripe-score could be affected by this registration (PI and AS numbers only count for 2 years in the score), and then go "oops, now you have to either pay a few 1000 to ripe OR a few hundred to us (most customers have as numberrs AND PI space)"...
thats blackmail.
As far as I can see, there are two options for the LIRs, depending on the contract they signed with the customer. If the contract permits, it is probably the best for the LIR to return the PI ressources to RIPE to be converted to a direct assignment. This way, RIPE will have to bother with the legal implication of suddenly demanding charges for a contract which only mentioned initial charges. If that is not the case, the LIR can _kindly_ request the customer to pay a recurring fee for the IP space, just for charity. If the customer refuses, then the LIR will have to pay the fee out of their own pockets. I don't see a way the LIR can legally force their customers to pay this sum. Kind regards, Tonnerre -- SyGroup GmbH Tonnerre Lombard Solutions Systematiques Tel:+41 61 333 80 33 Güterstrasse 86 Fax:+41 61 383 14 67 4053 Basel Web:www.sygroup.ch tonnerre.lombard@sygroup.ch
participants (2)
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Sven Olaf Kamphuis -
Tonnerre Lombard