Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010
yes! voting through the lir portal, great idea. (first on the agenda, the correction of 2007-01).. -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, David Crane wrote:
On 19 Jun 2009, at 11:01, Jon Morby wrote:
I'd be happier voting based on the minutes of the meeting through the LIR portal however ... and even happier if I can watch a stream of the whole proceedings on the basis it is difficult for me to get to any of these events
This would be perfect. Much more democratic way of getting opinions off people without impacting upon our working days.
-Dave.
X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net"
Hi,
voting through the lir portal, great idea. (first on the agenda, the correction of 2007-01)..
Could you clarify what you want electronic voting for? The policy development process? Which doesn't have any voting at the moment, it is a consensus-based approach on open mailing lists -- please read the link that Andy Davidson sent around earlier for more information. Or the General Meeting where decisions are made relating to the RIPE NCC? (Voting on the RIPE NCC executive board, accepting the charging scheme and budget, etc.) The former is a major change to policy development, the latter is something that comes up periodically. Rob -- JANET(UK) is a trading name of The JNT Association, a company limited by guarantee which is registered in England under No. 2881024 and whose Registered Office is at Lumen House, Library Avenue, Harwell Science and Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire. OX11 0SG
At 01:41 PM 19-06-09 +0100, Rob Evans wrote:
Hi,
voting through the lir portal, great idea. (first on the agenda, the correction of 2007-01)..
Could you clarify what you want electronic voting for?
The policy development process? Which doesn't have any voting at the moment, it is a consensus-based approach on open mailing lists -- please read the link that Andy Davidson sent around earlier for more information.
Or the General Meeting where decisions are made relating to the RIPE NCC? (Voting on the RIPE NCC executive board, accepting the charging scheme and budget, etc.)
Budgets, charging schemes, etc. If a vote is called for at an AGM and 50 out of 5000 people vote, there should be the ability to submit ones vote via the LIR Portal as well. It is called democracy. -Hank
The former is a major change to policy development, the latter is something that comes up periodically.
Rob
-- JANET(UK) is a trading name of The JNT Association, a company limited by guarantee which is registered in England under No. 2881024 and whose Registered Office is at Lumen House, Library Avenue, Harwell Science and Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire. OX11 0SG
At 01:41 PM 19-06-09 +0100, Rob Evans wrote:
Hi,
voting through the lir portal, great idea. (first on the agenda, the correction of 2007-01)..
Could you clarify what you want electronic voting for?
The policy development process? Which doesn't have any voting at the moment, it is a consensus-based approach on open mailing lists -- please read the link that Andy Davidson sent around earlier for more information.
Or the General Meeting where decisions are made relating to the RIPE NCC? (Voting on the RIPE NCC executive board, accepting the charging scheme and budget, etc.)
Budgets, charging schemes, etc. If a vote is called for at an AGM and 50 out of 5000 people vote, there should be the ability to submit ones vote via the LIR Portal as well. It is called democracy. -Hank
The former is a major change to policy development, the latter is something that comes up periodically.
Rob
-- JANET(UK) is a trading name of The JNT Association, a company limited by guarantee which is registered in England under No. 2881024 and whose Registered Office is at Lumen House, Library Avenue, Harwell Science and Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire. OX11 0SG
Hank Nussbacher wrote:
At 01:41 PM 19-06-09 +0100, Rob Evans wrote:
Hi,
voting through the lir portal, great idea. (first on the agenda, the correction of 2007-01)..
Could you clarify what you want electronic voting for?
The policy development process? Which doesn't have any voting at the moment, it is a consensus-based approach on open mailing lists -- please read the link that Andy Davidson sent around earlier for more information.
Or the General Meeting where decisions are made relating to the RIPE NCC? (Voting on the RIPE NCC executive board, accepting the charging scheme and budget, etc.)
Budgets, charging schemes, etc. If a vote is called for at an AGM and 50 out of 5000 people vote, there should be the ability to submit ones vote via the LIR Portal as well. It is called democracy.
Well. It goes even further. At the AGM it was raised, if this should be done via a postal voting system, the LIRportal or an external open source system. And to be honest, the LIRportal is in control of the NCC. I made it very clear, that I'd prefer a) if we spend money/ressources on something to let anybody benefit from that, ergo send it towards and existing open source system, b) i'd like to be able to check myself, that the underlying voting system actually does, what it says on the tin. c) maybe we don't want to give the NCC any chance (we know they don't do it, but why tempt them), with tampering with the way the system counts the votes. The external open source system, maybe even handled by an external entity would cover all those 3 points. Now, the vote on that hasn't been done yet, but there was some clear opinions on where we go, because I didn't stand alone in the room with that opinion. As for budgets, charging schemes, etc., yes, that's up for vote/discussion at the AGM. Correct. Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen -- Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair http://www.airwire.ie Phone: 091-865 968
On Sun, 21 Jun 2009, Martin List-Petersen wrote:
b) i'd like to be able to check myself, that the underlying voting system actually does, what it says on the tin.
c) maybe we don't want to give the NCC any chance (we know they don't do it, but why tempt them), with tampering with the way the system counts the votes.
The external open source system, maybe even handled by an external entity would cover all those 3 points.
I don't attribute malice to NCC just incompentence in this realm. Therefore, I have no problem with them running the voting system. -Hank
Hank Nussbacher wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jun 2009, Martin List-Petersen wrote:
b) i'd like to be able to check myself, that the underlying voting system actually does, what it says on the tin.
c) maybe we don't want to give the NCC any chance (we know they don't do it, but why tempt them), with tampering with the way the system counts the votes.
The external open source system, maybe even handled by an external entity would cover all those 3 points.
I don't attribute malice to NCC just incompentence in this realm. Therefore, I have no problem with them running the voting system.
I wasn't referring to malice nor imcompetence and I want to make that very clear. I was referring to openess and accountability. When it comes to votes, it has to be open and traceable. Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen -- Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair http://www.airwire.ie Phone: 091-865 968
well, if you vote at meetings, usually those are not anonymous we could just publish the list of all lirs and what they have voted, either at the meeting or at the lirportal. votes do not nessesarily have to be anonymouse and everyone can just check their own vote being processed and those of others so the only way to mess with that would be to insert fake lirs, but that would show up in the annual profit report :P -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Sun, 21 Jun 2009, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jun 2009, Martin List-Petersen wrote:
b) i'd like to be able to check myself, that the underlying voting system actually does, what it says on the tin.
c) maybe we don't want to give the NCC any chance (we know they don't do it, but why tempt them), with tampering with the way the system counts the votes.
The external open source system, maybe even handled by an external entity would cover all those 3 points.
I don't attribute malice to NCC just incompentence in this realm. Therefore, I have no problem with them running the voting system.
-Hank
X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net"
Martin, Votes can be done as PGP signed e-mails. These e-mails can be published on web site or sent to all interesting people via e-mail. So everyone can check their votes are counted right. As anybody can check PGP signs, it is not a problem voting through RIPE NCC web site. P.S. Remember the board elections: people put ballots inside a hat, then a few guys went out with the hat, did something (probably counted ballots) and said the result. So the current voting system already not better than voting through the LIR portal ;) Martin List-Petersen wrote:
Hank Nussbacher wrote:
At 01:41 PM 19-06-09 +0100, Rob Evans wrote:
Hi,
voting through the lir portal, great idea. (first on the agenda, the correction of 2007-01).. Could you clarify what you want electronic voting for?
The policy development process? Which doesn't have any voting at the moment, it is a consensus-based approach on open mailing lists -- please read the link that Andy Davidson sent around earlier for more information.
Or the General Meeting where decisions are made relating to the RIPE NCC? (Voting on the RIPE NCC executive board, accepting the charging scheme and budget, etc.) Budgets, charging schemes, etc. If a vote is called for at an AGM and 50 out of 5000 people vote, there should be the ability to submit ones vote via the LIR Portal as well. It is called democracy.
Well. It goes even further.
At the AGM it was raised, if this should be done via a postal voting system, the LIRportal or an external open source system.
And to be honest, the LIRportal is in control of the NCC.
I made it very clear, that I'd prefer
a) if we spend money/ressources on something to let anybody benefit from that, ergo send it towards and existing open source system,
b) i'd like to be able to check myself, that the underlying voting system actually does, what it says on the tin.
c) maybe we don't want to give the NCC any chance (we know they don't do it, but why tempt them), with tampering with the way the system counts the votes.
The external open source system, maybe even handled by an external entity would cover all those 3 points.
Now, the vote on that hasn't been done yet, but there was some clear opinions on where we go, because I didn't stand alone in the room with that opinion.
As for budgets, charging schemes, etc., yes, that's up for vote/discussion at the AGM. Correct.
Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen
-- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
Max Tulyev wrote:
Martin,
Votes can be done as PGP signed e-mails. These e-mails can be published on web site or sent to all interesting people via e-mail. So everyone can check their votes are counted right. As anybody can check PGP signs, it is not a problem voting through RIPE NCC web site.
P.S. Remember the board elections: people put ballots inside a hat, then a few guys went out with the hat, did something (probably counted ballots) and said the result. So the current voting system already not better than voting through the LIR portal ;)
Well, they didn't leave. They were in the back of the room. But yes, any online voting system will a) give more people a chance to vote and b) be more precise I just stated by personal preference and reasoning. Do what you want from there :) I know what I'm voting for, if it comes up to a vote. Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen -- Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair http://www.airwire.ie Phone: 091-865 968
Martin List-Petersen wrote:
Hank Nussbacher wrote:
At 01:41 PM 19-06-09 +0100, Rob Evans wrote:
Hi,
voting through the lir portal, great idea. (first on the agenda, the correction of 2007-01).. Could you clarify what you want electronic voting for?
The policy development process? Which doesn't have any voting at the moment, it is a consensus-based approach on open mailing lists -- please read the link that Andy Davidson sent around earlier for more information.
Or the General Meeting where decisions are made relating to the RIPE NCC? (Voting on the RIPE NCC executive board, accepting the charging scheme and budget, etc.) Budgets, charging schemes, etc. If a vote is called for at an AGM and 50 out of 5000 people vote, there should be the ability to submit ones vote via the LIR Portal as well. It is called democracy. Well. It goes even further.
At the AGM it was raised, if this should be done via a postal voting system, the LIRportal or an external open source system.
And to be honest, the LIRportal is in control of the NCC.
I made it very clear, that I'd prefer
a) if we spend money/ressources on something to let anybody benefit from that, ergo send it towards and existing open source system,
b) i'd like to be able to check myself, that the underlying voting system actually does, what it says on the tin.
c) maybe we don't want to give the NCC any chance (we know they don't do it, but why tempt them), with tampering with the way the system counts the votes.
The external open source system, maybe even handled by an external entity would cover all those 3 points.
Now, the vote on that hasn't been done yet, but there was some clear opinions on where we go, because I didn't stand alone in the room with that opinion.
As for budgets, charging schemes, etc., yes, that's up for vote/discussion at the AGM. Correct.
Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen
-- Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair http://www.airwire.ie Phone: 091-865 968
Martin, I'm not about where they was, I'm about the count process is not under eyes of all interesting people ;) So, how to launch the formal process of making policy of implementing it? Martin List-Petersen wrote:
Well, they didn't leave. They were in the back of the room.
But yes, any online voting system will
a) give more people a chance to vote
and
b) be more precise
I just stated by personal preference and reasoning. Do what you want from there :) I know what I'm voting for, if it comes up to a vote.
Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen
-- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253@FIDO)
At 09:52 PM 21-06-09 +0100, Martin List-Petersen wrote:
Max Tulyev wrote:
Martin,
Votes can be done as PGP signed e-mails. These e-mails can be published on web site or sent to all interesting people via e-mail. So everyone can check their votes are counted right. As anybody can check PGP signs, it is not a problem voting through RIPE NCC web site.
P.S. Remember the board elections: people put ballots inside a hat, then a few guys went out with the hat, did something (probably counted ballots) and said the result. So the current voting system already not better than voting through the LIR portal ;)
Well, they didn't leave. They were in the back of the room.
But yes, any online voting system will
a) give more people a chance to vote
and
b) be more precise
I just stated by personal preference and reasoning. Do what you want from there :) I know what I'm voting for, if it comes up to a vote.
Problem is it will probably brought for a vote at the next AGM where it will be defeated since the 50 LIRs who attend probably won't want their vote diluted by the unwashed masses. -Hank
Problem is it will probably brought for a vote at the next AGM where it will be defeated since the 50 LIRs who attend probably won't want their vote diluted by the unwashed masses.
I think you may misunderstand. There is some enthusiasm for changing the voting process, at least for the executive board (which is what the paper at the last meeting concentrated on), and especially among those who attend the General Meetings because if there are several candidates with some support standing for two open board seats, the election process can take a couple of hours of sitting in a room for round after round of voting. If you think the GMs are 'smoky room' affairs with everyone of one mind to get their drinking buddies in, let me assure you it isn't that way. That isn't to say, of course, that 50 people should be representing 5,000. See my presentation at last July's APM meeting, Hank. :) Rob
Hank Nussbacher wrote:
At 09:52 PM 21-06-09 +0100, Martin List-Petersen wrote:
Martin,
Votes can be done as PGP signed e-mails. These e-mails can be published on web site or sent to all interesting people via e-mail. So everyone can check their votes are counted right. As anybody can check PGP signs, it is not a problem voting through RIPE NCC web site.
P.S. Remember the board elections: people put ballots inside a hat,
Max Tulyev wrote: then
a few guys went out with the hat, did something (probably counted ballots) and said the result. So the current voting system already not better than voting through the LIR portal ;)
Well, they didn't leave. They were in the back of the room.
But yes, any online voting system will
a) give more people a chance to vote
and
b) be more precise
I just stated by personal preference and reasoning. Do what you want from there :) I know what I'm voting for, if it comes up to a vote.
Problem is it will probably brought for a vote at the next AGM where it will be defeated since the 50 LIRs who attend probably won't want their vote diluted by the unwashed masses.
Actually, I think you are pretty wrong there. There was a few proxies at the meeting and there's quite a bit of interest to make it possible for more people to vote between the people that actually show for the AGM. Don't make such assumptions if you don't know, whats going on at the AGM. Show up for the AGM. Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen -- Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair http://www.airwire.ie Phone: 091-865 968
Hi,
voting through the lir portal, great idea. (first on the agenda, the correction of 2007-01)..
Could you clarify what you want electronic voting for? The policy development process? Which doesn't have any voting at the moment, it is a consensus-based approach on open mailing lists -- please read the link that Andy Davidson sent around earlier for more information. Or the General Meeting where decisions are made relating to the RIPE NCC? (Voting on the RIPE NCC executive board, accepting the charging scheme and budget, etc.) The former is a major change to policy development, the latter is something that comes up periodically. Rob -- JANET(UK) is a trading name of The JNT Association, a company limited by guarantee which is registered in England under No. 2881024 and whose Registered Office is at Lumen House, Library Avenue, Harwell Science and Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire. OX11 0SG
Hi,
voting through the lir portal, great idea. (first on the agenda, the correction of 2007-01)..
Could you clarify what you want electronic voting for?
The policy development process? Which doesn't have any voting at the moment, it is a consensus-based approach on open mailing lists -- please read the link that Andy Davidson sent around earlier for more information.
Or the General Meeting where decisions are made relating to the RIPE NCC? (Voting on the RIPE NCC executive board, accepting the charging scheme and budget, etc.)
The former is a major change to policy development, the latter is something that comes up periodically.
Rob
the general meetings would be a start (lirportal voting after the GM, based on the papers and/or stream of the GM) -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Rob Evans wrote:
Hi,
voting through the lir portal, great idea. (first on the agenda, the correction of 2007-01)..
Could you clarify what you want electronic voting for?
The policy development process? Which doesn't have any voting at the moment, it is a consensus-based approach on open mailing lists -- please read the link that Andy Davidson sent around earlier for more information.
Or the General Meeting where decisions are made relating to the RIPE NCC? (Voting on the RIPE NCC executive board, accepting the charging scheme and budget, etc.)
The former is a major change to policy development, the latter is something that comes up periodically.
Rob
-- JANET(UK) is a trading name of The JNT Association, a company limited by guarantee which is registered in England under No. 2881024 and whose Registered Office is at Lumen House, Library Avenue, Harwell Science and Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire. OX11 0SG
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participants (6)
-
Hank Nussbacher -
Martin List-Petersen -
Max Tulyev -
Rob Evans -
Sven Olaf Kamphuis -
Sven Olaf Kamphuis