Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont. the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice. if the customer happens to be in lets say russia it doesnt make much sense to have their network announced in amsterdam or germany now does it.. thats the whole point of PI space in the first place, its PROVIDER INDEPENDANT, from day 1. -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Martin List-Petersen wrote:
Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote:
The product that the customer buys of the LIR should be giving more than 50 EUR/year revenue, if not, you might not be in business for long.
LIRS are NOT isps!
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
the "product" bought from a LIR is the registration of IP space, usually at at one-time single payment that covered the increase in the billing score for 2 years if applicable and the administrative work.
there are no "services" or "products" a LIR normally sells.
You have to have a contractual relationship with the enduser that has PI now. You know that, right ?
and there also is no question of "circumventing ripe membership fees" as those only apply to LIRs (that is, people willing to register IP space for others).
Or entities, that don't want to deal with a LIR.
the fact that -most- LIRs are part of an ISP or even some ASPs that fell for ripes jedi-mind-trick and became a LIR themselves, doesnt mean they HAVE to be part of an ISP.
There are very few LIRs, that aren't providing some commercial product. And even then 50 EUR/year is compared to the money they probably pay for connectivity: near to nothing.
Anyhow, this whole matter was also already raised at the GM.
Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen -- Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair http://www.airwire.ie Phone: 091-865 968
X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net"
I think you do. Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner. I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals. I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind. Attila -----Eredeti üzenet-----
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont. the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice. -------------- Ezen uzenet kizarolag a cimzettjenek szol es olyan bizalmas jellegu informaciokat tartalmazhat, amelyek feltarasat jogszabaly vagy szerzodes tiltja. Amennyiben a jelen uzenetet On teves kezbesites folytan kapta, kerjuk haladektalanul ertesitsen bennunket es az uzenetet annak csatolmanyaival egyutt torolje. Amennyiben On nem cimzettje a jelen uzenetnek, annak es mellekleteinek elolvasasa, masolasa, tovabbitasa, vagy barmely celbol torteno felhasznalasa szigoruan tilos. Megjegyezzuk, hogy az e-mail utjan torteno kozlesek nem garantaljak az elkuldott uzenetek bizalmas jellegenek es teljessegenek megorzeset, valamint az uzenetek megfelelo kezbesiteset. A fentieken tulmenoen, a Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., annak kapcsolt vallalkozasai, illetve az altaluk megbizott harmadik felek a jelen e-mail cimrol kuldott, vagy arra erkezo barmely uzenetet ellenorizhetnek, lemasolhatnak, felhasznalhatnak vagy harmadik fel reszere tovabbithatnak. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain confidential information protected from disclosure by law or contract. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify us and delete it together with its attachments. If you are not an addressee of this message, reading, copying, distribution or use for any purpose of the contents of this message or its attachments is strictly forbidden. Additionally, please note that communication by email guarantees neither the confidentiality nor the completeness or proper receipt of the messages sent. Furthermore, Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., its affiliates and third parties retained by them may monitor, copy, use or forward to third parties any outgoing messages from and incoming messages to this email address.
And sadly it is a precedent ... EUR50 this year .... EUR500 the year after ... EUR5000 the year after that ?? Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests. We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members I totally agree that RIPE have been needlessly steering everyone into becoming an LIR when they only need a small assignment, and this has lead to a waste of IP allocations .. however my understanding is that this policy isn't designed to limit PA space assignments anyway ... it is designed to make PI harder to obtain, thus steering yet more people into the LIR route (whether they need to be an LIR or not) ... How many LIRs find RIPE referring customers to them because they needed an assignment? Few I suspect - they all either get told "go find one from this list" or otherwise "become an LIR" and pay the small LIR fee. Maybe its just me only seeing the glass as half full? Jon On 19 Jun 2009, at 09:16, Heidrich Attila wrote:
I think you do.
Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner.
I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals.
I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind.
Attila
-----Eredeti üzenet-----
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont.
the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice.
-------------- Ezen uzenet kizarolag a cimzettjenek szol es olyan bizalmas jellegu informaciokat tartalmazhat, amelyek feltarasat jogszabaly vagy szerzodes tiltja. Amennyiben a jelen uzenetet On teves kezbesites folytan kapta, kerjuk haladektalanul ertesitsen bennunket es az uzenetet annak csatolmanyaival egyutt torolje. Amennyiben On nem cimzettje a jelen uzenetnek, annak es mellekleteinek elolvasasa, masolasa, tovabbitasa, vagy barmely celbol torteno felhasznalasa szigoruan tilos. Megjegyezzuk, hogy az e-mail utjan torteno kozlesek nem garantaljak az elkuldott uzenetek bizalmas jellegenek es teljessegenek megorzeset, valamint az uzenetek megfelelo kezbesiteset. A fentieken tulmenoen, a Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., annak kapcsolt vallalkozasai, illetve az altaluk megbizott harmadik felek a jelen e-mail cimrol kuldott, vagy arra erkezo barmely uzenetet ellenorizhetnek, lemasolhatnak, felhasznalhatnak vagy harmadik fel reszere tovabbithatnak.
This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain confidential information protected from disclosure by law or contract. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify us and delete it together with its attachments. If you are not an addressee of this message, reading, copying, distribution or use for any purpose of the contents of this message or its attachments is strictly forbidden. Additionally, please note that communication by email guarantees neither the confidentiality nor the completeness or proper receipt of the messages sent. Furthermore, Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., its affiliates and third parties retained by them may monitor, copy, use or forward to third parties any outgoing messages from and incoming messages to this email address.
And sadly it is a precedent ... EUR50 this year .... EUR500 the year after ... EUR5000 the year after that ?? Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests. We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members I totally agree that RIPE have been needlessly steering everyone into becoming an LIR when they only need a small assignment, and this has lead to a waste of IP allocations .. however my understanding is that this policy isn't designed to limit PA space assignments anyway ... it is designed to make PI harder to obtain, thus steering yet more people into the LIR route (whether they need to be an LIR or not) ... How many LIRs find RIPE referring customers to them because they needed an assignment? Few I suspect - they all either get told "go find one from this list" or otherwise "become an LIR" and pay the small LIR fee. Maybe its just me only seeing the glass as half full? Jon On 19 Jun 2009, at 09:16, Heidrich Attila wrote:
I think you do.
Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner.
I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals.
I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind.
Attila
-----Eredeti üzenet-----
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont.
the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice.
-------------- Ezen uzenet kizarolag a cimzettjenek szol es olyan bizalmas jellegu informaciokat tartalmazhat, amelyek feltarasat jogszabaly vagy szerzodes tiltja. Amennyiben a jelen uzenetet On teves kezbesites folytan kapta, kerjuk haladektalanul ertesitsen bennunket es az uzenetet annak csatolmanyaival egyutt torolje. Amennyiben On nem cimzettje a jelen uzenetnek, annak es mellekleteinek elolvasasa, masolasa, tovabbitasa, vagy barmely celbol torteno felhasznalasa szigoruan tilos. Megjegyezzuk, hogy az e-mail utjan torteno kozlesek nem garantaljak az elkuldott uzenetek bizalmas jellegenek es teljessegenek megorzeset, valamint az uzenetek megfelelo kezbesiteset. A fentieken tulmenoen, a Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., annak kapcsolt vallalkozasai, illetve az altaluk megbizott harmadik felek a jelen e-mail cimrol kuldott, vagy arra erkezo barmely uzenetet ellenorizhetnek, lemasolhatnak, felhasznalhatnak vagy harmadik fel reszere tovabbithatnak.
This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain confidential information protected from disclosure by law or contract. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify us and delete it together with its attachments. If you are not an addressee of this message, reading, copying, distribution or use for any purpose of the contents of this message or its attachments is strictly forbidden. Additionally, please note that communication by email guarantees neither the confidentiality nor the completeness or proper receipt of the messages sent. Furthermore, Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., its affiliates and third parties retained by them may monitor, copy, use or forward to third parties any outgoing messages from and incoming messages to this email address.
The simple fact of the matter is PI space is not effectively being controlled. RIPE need to take control of it so that we don't have the same problems with IPv6 as we do now with IPv4. PI space has been passed to end users, and because its P.I no one is really maintaining who has what and what it is being used for. By making LIR's responsible for the relationship with the end user of the P.I a reclamation can be easily achieved - if needed, I don't agree with the charging but I do agree with making whoever requested the P.I space on behalf of a client responsible. Geraint -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-admin@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Jon Morby Sent: 19 June 2009 09:29 To: lir@uralttk.ru Cc: Sven Olaf Kamphuis; Martin List-Petersen; lir@uralttk.ru; Sven Olaf Kamphuis; members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 And sadly it is a precedent ... EUR50 this year .... EUR500 the year after ... EUR5000 the year after that ?? Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests. We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members I totally agree that RIPE have been needlessly steering everyone into becoming an LIR when they only need a small assignment, and this has lead to a waste of IP allocations .. however my understanding is that this policy isn't designed to limit PA space assignments anyway ... it is designed to make PI harder to obtain, thus steering yet more people into the LIR route (whether they need to be an LIR or not) ... How many LIRs find RIPE referring customers to them because they needed an assignment? Few I suspect - they all either get told "go find one from this list" or otherwise "become an LIR" and pay the small LIR fee. Maybe its just me only seeing the glass as half full? Jon On 19 Jun 2009, at 09:16, Heidrich Attila wrote:
I think you do.
Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner.
I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals.
I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind.
Attila
-----Eredeti üzenet-----
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont.
the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice.
-------------- Ezen uzenet kizarolag a cimzettjenek szol es olyan bizalmas jellegu informaciokat tartalmazhat, amelyek feltarasat jogszabaly vagy szerzodes tiltja. Amennyiben a jelen uzenetet On teves kezbesites folytan kapta, kerjuk haladektalanul ertesitsen bennunket es az uzenetet annak csatolmanyaival egyutt torolje. Amennyiben On nem cimzettje a jelen uzenetnek, annak es mellekleteinek elolvasasa, masolasa, tovabbitasa, vagy barmely celbol torteno felhasznalasa szigoruan tilos. Megjegyezzuk, hogy az e-mail utjan torteno kozlesek nem garantaljak az elkuldott uzenetek bizalmas jellegenek es teljessegenek megorzeset, valamint az uzenetek megfelelo kezbesiteset. A fentieken tulmenoen, a Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., annak kapcsolt vallalkozasai, illetve az altaluk megbizott harmadik felek a jelen e-mail cimrol kuldott, vagy arra erkezo barmely uzenetet ellenorizhetnek, lemasolhatnak, felhasznalhatnak vagy harmadik fel reszere tovabbithatnak.
This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain confidential information protected from disclosure by law or contract. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify us and delete it together with its attachments. If you are not an addressee of this message, reading, copying, distribution or use for any purpose of the contents of this message or its attachments is strictly forbidden. Additionally, please note that communication by email guarantees neither the confidentiality nor the completeness or proper receipt of the messages sent. Furthermore, Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., its affiliates and third parties retained by them may monitor, copy, use or forward to third parties any outgoing messages from and incoming messages to this email address.
The simple fact of the matter is PI space is not effectively being controlled. RIPE need to take control of it so that we don't have the same problems with IPv6 as we do now with IPv4. PI space has been passed to end users, and because its P.I no one is really maintaining who has what and what it is being used for. By making LIR's responsible for the relationship with the end user of the P.I a reclamation can be easily achieved - if needed, I don't agree with the charging but I do agree with making whoever requested the P.I space on behalf of a client responsible. Geraint -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-admin@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Jon Morby Sent: 19 June 2009 09:29 To: lir@uralttk.ru Cc: Sven Olaf Kamphuis; Martin List-Petersen; lir@uralttk.ru; Sven Olaf Kamphuis; members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 And sadly it is a precedent ... EUR50 this year .... EUR500 the year after ... EUR5000 the year after that ?? Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests. We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members I totally agree that RIPE have been needlessly steering everyone into becoming an LIR when they only need a small assignment, and this has lead to a waste of IP allocations .. however my understanding is that this policy isn't designed to limit PA space assignments anyway ... it is designed to make PI harder to obtain, thus steering yet more people into the LIR route (whether they need to be an LIR or not) ... How many LIRs find RIPE referring customers to them because they needed an assignment? Few I suspect - they all either get told "go find one from this list" or otherwise "become an LIR" and pay the small LIR fee. Maybe its just me only seeing the glass as half full? Jon On 19 Jun 2009, at 09:16, Heidrich Attila wrote:
I think you do.
Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner.
I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals.
I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind.
Attila
-----Eredeti üzenet-----
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont.
the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice.
-------------- Ezen uzenet kizarolag a cimzettjenek szol es olyan bizalmas jellegu informaciokat tartalmazhat, amelyek feltarasat jogszabaly vagy szerzodes tiltja. Amennyiben a jelen uzenetet On teves kezbesites folytan kapta, kerjuk haladektalanul ertesitsen bennunket es az uzenetet annak csatolmanyaival egyutt torolje. Amennyiben On nem cimzettje a jelen uzenetnek, annak es mellekleteinek elolvasasa, masolasa, tovabbitasa, vagy barmely celbol torteno felhasznalasa szigoruan tilos. Megjegyezzuk, hogy az e-mail utjan torteno kozlesek nem garantaljak az elkuldott uzenetek bizalmas jellegenek es teljessegenek megorzeset, valamint az uzenetek megfelelo kezbesiteset. A fentieken tulmenoen, a Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., annak kapcsolt vallalkozasai, illetve az altaluk megbizott harmadik felek a jelen e-mail cimrol kuldott, vagy arra erkezo barmely uzenetet ellenorizhetnek, lemasolhatnak, felhasznalhatnak vagy harmadik fel reszere tovabbithatnak.
This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain confidential information protected from disclosure by law or contract. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify us and delete it together with its attachments. If you are not an addressee of this message, reading, copying, distribution or use for any purpose of the contents of this message or its attachments is strictly forbidden. Additionally, please note that communication by email guarantees neither the confidentiality nor the completeness or proper receipt of the messages sent. Furthermore, Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., its affiliates and third parties retained by them may monitor, copy, use or forward to third parties any outgoing messages from and incoming messages to this email address.
Hi,
Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests.
RIPE policies are proposed and voted by the membership, it can not get any more democratic than that ! If you do not like them: VOTE - you do not have to be at the meeting to send a proxy, and I do not say this as I am in favor of charing for PI space (I am neutral on the point) - I say it as it is how working members organisation stay alive.
We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members
I am in the UK, I am Nominet member as well. I went to Nominet Manchester consultation and to the best of my knowledge what you are saying is totally wrong. The board has currently no say on pricing, it is one of the point under discussion and any change in this direction will need to be voted. Feel free to ask nom-steer for a long discussion on the matter should you not want to take my word for it (and you have no reason to do). Regards, Thomas Mangin Technical Director -- Exa Networks Limited - http://www.exa-networks.co.uk/ Company No. 04922037 - VAT no. 829 1565 09 27-29 Mill Field Road, BD16 1PY, UK Phone: +44 (0) 845 145 1234 - Fax: +44 (0) 1274 567646
And sadly it is a precedent ... EUR50 this year .... EUR500 the year after ... EUR5000 the year after that ??
Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests.
We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members
I totally agree that RIPE have been needlessly steering everyone into becoming an LIR when they only need a small assignment, and this has lead to a waste of IP allocations .. however my understanding is that this policy isn't designed to limit PA space assignments anyway ... it is designed to make PI harder to obtain, thus steering yet more people into the LIR route (whether they need to be an LIR or not) ...
How many LIRs find RIPE referring customers to them because they needed an assignment? Few I suspect - they all either get told "go find one from this list" or otherwise "become an LIR" and pay the small LIR fee.
Maybe its just me only seeing the glass as half full?
Jon
On 19 Jun 2009, at 09:16, Heidrich Attila wrote:
I think you do.
Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner.
I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals.
I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind.
Attila
-----Eredeti üzenet-----
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont.
the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice.
-------------- Ezen uzenet kizarolag a cimzettjenek szol es olyan bizalmas jellegu informaciokat tartalmazhat, amelyek feltarasat jogszabaly vagy szerzodes tiltja. Amennyiben a jelen uzenetet On teves kezbesites folytan kapta, kerjuk haladektalanul ertesitsen bennunket es az uzenetet annak csatolmanyaival egyutt torolje. Amennyiben On nem cimzettje a jelen uzenetnek, annak es mellekleteinek elolvasasa, masolasa, tovabbitasa, vagy barmely celbol torteno felhasznalasa szigoruan tilos. Megjegyezzuk, hogy az e-mail utjan torteno kozlesek nem garantaljak az elkuldott uzenetek bizalmas jellegenek es teljessegenek megorzeset, valamint az uzenetek megfelelo kezbesiteset. A fentieken tulmenoen, a Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., annak kapcsolt vallalkozasai, illetve az altaluk megbizott harmadik felek a jelen e-mail cimrol kuldott, vagy arra erkezo barmely uzenetet ellenorizhetnek, lemasolhatnak, felhasznalhatnak vagy harmadik fel reszere tovabbithatnak.
This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain confidential information protected from disclosure by law or contract. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify us and delete it together with its attachments. If you are not an addressee of this message, reading, copying, distribution or use for any purpose of the contents of this message or its attachments is strictly forbidden. Additionally, please note that communication by email guarantees neither the confidentiality nor the completeness or proper receipt of the messages sent. Furthermore, Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., its affiliates and third parties retained by them may monitor, copy, use or forward to third parties any outgoing messages from and incoming messages to this email address.
On 19 Jun 2009, at 11:38, Thomas Mangin wrote:
Hi,
Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests.
RIPE policies are proposed and voted by the membership, it can not get any more democratic than that !
Yes, but generally it would seem that they're discussed at the GM and not in open forums such as this .... tbh other than a comment asking for a sample contract a few months ago (which I've still not seen, so haven't looked into this further until this thread started) I've not seen any discussion on this proposal
If you do not like them: VOTE - you do not have to be at the meeting to send a proxy, and I do not say this as I am in favor of charing for PI space (I am neutral on the point) - I say it as it is how working members organisation stay alive.
If I knew what we were voting on, and could find a company/member I trusted to proxy my vote in the way I wished it to be cast, then I would I'd be happier voting based on the minutes of the meeting through the LIR portal however ... and even happier if I can watch a stream of the whole proceedings on the basis it is difficult for me to get to any of these events
We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members
I am in the UK, I am Nominet member as well. I went to Nominet Manchester consultation and to the best of my knowledge what you are saying is totally wrong. The board has currently no say on pricing, it is one of the point under discussion and any change in this direction will need to be voted.
This isn't the place for this discussion, but I refer to the implementation of DAC/EPP/Whois2/etc where we were told we would have to pay an additional £400 for access on top of our membership fee owing to the policy of having "preferred" access or similar ... In the end we worked around it, but I'm also concerned about discussions I've heard about having weighted voting based on the number of domains you have registered through Nominet ... being a member should entitle you to 1 vote per membership .. not 1 vote per domain you register .. then anyone can "buy" the policy making process if they have enough money
Feel free to ask nom-steer for a long discussion on the matter should you not want to take my word for it (and you have no reason to do).
One day ... when I have enough staff, and enough spare time ... but not before I've had some sleep and a holiday! :)
Regards,
Thomas Mangin Technical Director -- Exa Networks Limited - http://www.exa-networks.co.uk/ Company No. 04922037 - VAT no. 829 1565 09 27-29 Mill Field Road, BD16 1PY, UK Phone: +44 (0) 845 145 1234 - Fax: +44 (0) 1274 567646
And sadly it is a precedent ... EUR50 this year .... EUR500 the year after ... EUR5000 the year after that ??
Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests.
We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members
I totally agree that RIPE have been needlessly steering everyone into becoming an LIR when they only need a small assignment, and this has lead to a waste of IP allocations .. however my understanding is that this policy isn't designed to limit PA space assignments anyway ... it is designed to make PI harder to obtain, thus steering yet more people into the LIR route (whether they need to be an LIR or not) ...
How many LIRs find RIPE referring customers to them because they needed an assignment? Few I suspect - they all either get told "go find one from this list" or otherwise "become an LIR" and pay the small LIR fee.
Maybe its just me only seeing the glass as half full?
Jon
On 19 Jun 2009, at 09:16, Heidrich Attila wrote:
I think you do.
Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner.
I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals.
I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind.
Attila
-----Eredeti üzenet-----
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont.
the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice.
-------------- Ezen uzenet kizarolag a cimzettjenek szol es olyan bizalmas jellegu informaciokat tartalmazhat, amelyek feltarasat jogszabaly vagy szerzodes tiltja. Amennyiben a jelen uzenetet On teves kezbesites folytan kapta, kerjuk haladektalanul ertesitsen bennunket es az uzenetet annak csatolmanyaival egyutt torolje. Amennyiben On nem cimzettje a jelen uzenetnek, annak es mellekleteinek elolvasasa, masolasa, tovabbitasa, vagy barmely celbol torteno felhasznalasa szigoruan tilos. Megjegyezzuk, hogy az e-mail utjan torteno kozlesek nem garantaljak az elkuldott uzenetek bizalmas jellegenek es teljessegenek megorzeset, valamint az uzenetek megfelelo kezbesiteset. A fentieken tulmenoen, a Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., annak kapcsolt vallalkozasai, illetve az altaluk megbizott harmadik felek a jelen e-mail cimrol kuldott, vagy arra erkezo barmely uzenetet ellenorizhetnek, lemasolhatnak, felhasznalhatnak vagy harmadik fel reszere tovabbithatnak.
This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain confidential information protected from disclosure by law or contract. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify us and delete it together with its attachments. If you are not an addressee of this message, reading, copying, distribution or use for any purpose of the contents of this message or its attachments is strictly forbidden. Additionally, please note that communication by email guarantees neither the confidentiality nor the completeness or proper receipt of the messages sent. Furthermore, Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., its affiliates and third parties retained by them may monitor, copy, use or forward to third parties any outgoing messages from and incoming messages to this email address.
Hi,
RIPE policies are proposed and voted by the membership, it can not get any more democratic than that !
Yes, but generally it would seem that they're discussed at the GM and not in open forums such as this .... tbh other than a comment asking for a sample contract a few months ago (which I've still not seen, so haven't looked into this further until this thread started) I've not seen any discussion on this proposal
I do not want to drag individuals into the discussion, but Nigel Titley (Board Chairman) is going the extra mile to make sure that RIPE policies are well communicated and members involved. For the last few LINX and UKNOF meetings, he has been presenting all the policies under discussion at RIPE, I will bore the list with all the links. http://www.uknof.org.uk/uknof12/Titley-RIPE_policies.pdf http://www.uknof.org.uk/uknof13/Titley-RIPE_policy.pdf Linx members can access the archives for Linx 63 and Linx 65 where slides, audio and video are accessible.
In the end we worked around it, but I'm also concerned about discussions I've heard about having weighted voting based on the number of domains you have registered through Nominet ... being a member should entitle you to 1 vote per membership .. not 1 vote per domain you register .. then anyone can "buy" the policy making process if they have enough money
Nominet does not currently have a "1 member 1 vote" system, it never had, the voting was always weighted - which is making changes hard as some big members have currently near veto power .. But as you said this is off-topic. Thomas
Hi,
RIPE policies are proposed and voted by the membership, it can not get any more democratic than that !
Yes, but generally it would seem that they're discussed at the GM and not in open forums such as this .... tbh other than a comment asking for a sample contract a few months ago (which I've still not seen, so haven't looked into this further until this thread started) I've not seen any discussion on this proposal
I do not want to drag individuals into the discussion, but Nigel Titley (Board Chairman) is going the extra mile to make sure that RIPE policies are well communicated and members involved. For the last few LINX and UKNOF meetings, he has been presenting all the policies under discussion at RIPE, I will bore the list with all the links. http://www.uknof.org.uk/uknof12/Titley-RIPE_policies.pdf http://www.uknof.org.uk/uknof13/Titley-RIPE_policy.pdf Linx members can access the archives for Linx 63 and Linx 65 where slides, audio and video are accessible.
In the end we worked around it, but I'm also concerned about discussions I've heard about having weighted voting based on the number of domains you have registered through Nominet ... being a member should entitle you to 1 vote per membership .. not 1 vote per domain you register .. then anyone can "buy" the policy making process if they have enough money
Nominet does not currently have a "1 member 1 vote" system, it never had, the voting was always weighted - which is making changes hard as some big members have currently near veto power .. But as you said this is off-topic. Thomas
On 19 Jun 2009, at 11:01, Jon Morby wrote:
I'd be happier voting based on the minutes of the meeting through the LIR portal however ... and even happier if I can watch a stream of the whole proceedings on the basis it is difficult for me to get to any of these events
This would be perfect. Much more democratic way of getting opinions off people without impacting upon our working days. -Dave.
David Crane wrote:
On 19 Jun 2009, at 11:01, Jon Morby wrote:
I'd be happier voting based on the minutes of the meeting through the LIR portal however ... and even happier if I can watch a stream of the whole proceedings on the basis it is difficult for me to get to any of these events
This would be perfect. Much more democratic way of getting opinions off people without impacting upon our working days.
This has also been discussed at the GM. If it should be a mail-vote, via the LIR-portal or via an independant system. Well, not the vote based on the minutes, but the votes that are up for/at the GM. This will be up for vote, too, as soon as the proposal for it is done. Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen -- Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair http://www.airwire.ie Phone: 091-865 968
On 19 Jun 2009, at 11:01, Jon Morby wrote:
I'd be happier voting based on the minutes of the meeting through the LIR portal however ... and even happier if I can watch a stream of the whole proceedings on the basis it is difficult for me to get to any of these events
This would be perfect. Much more democratic way of getting opinions off people without impacting upon our working days. -Dave.
On 19 Jun 2009, at 11:38, Thomas Mangin wrote:
Hi,
Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests.
RIPE policies are proposed and voted by the membership, it can not get any more democratic than that !
Yes, but generally it would seem that they're discussed at the GM and not in open forums such as this .... tbh other than a comment asking for a sample contract a few months ago (which I've still not seen, so haven't looked into this further until this thread started) I've not seen any discussion on this proposal
If you do not like them: VOTE - you do not have to be at the meeting to send a proxy, and I do not say this as I am in favor of charing for PI space (I am neutral on the point) - I say it as it is how working members organisation stay alive.
If I knew what we were voting on, and could find a company/member I trusted to proxy my vote in the way I wished it to be cast, then I would I'd be happier voting based on the minutes of the meeting through the LIR portal however ... and even happier if I can watch a stream of the whole proceedings on the basis it is difficult for me to get to any of these events
We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members
I am in the UK, I am Nominet member as well. I went to Nominet Manchester consultation and to the best of my knowledge what you are saying is totally wrong. The board has currently no say on pricing, it is one of the point under discussion and any change in this direction will need to be voted.
This isn't the place for this discussion, but I refer to the implementation of DAC/EPP/Whois2/etc where we were told we would have to pay an additional £400 for access on top of our membership fee owing to the policy of having "preferred" access or similar ... In the end we worked around it, but I'm also concerned about discussions I've heard about having weighted voting based on the number of domains you have registered through Nominet ... being a member should entitle you to 1 vote per membership .. not 1 vote per domain you register .. then anyone can "buy" the policy making process if they have enough money
Feel free to ask nom-steer for a long discussion on the matter should you not want to take my word for it (and you have no reason to do).
One day ... when I have enough staff, and enough spare time ... but not before I've had some sleep and a holiday! :)
Regards,
Thomas Mangin Technical Director -- Exa Networks Limited - http://www.exa-networks.co.uk/ Company No. 04922037 - VAT no. 829 1565 09 27-29 Mill Field Road, BD16 1PY, UK Phone: +44 (0) 845 145 1234 - Fax: +44 (0) 1274 567646
And sadly it is a precedent ... EUR50 this year .... EUR500 the year after ... EUR5000 the year after that ??
Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests.
We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members
I totally agree that RIPE have been needlessly steering everyone into becoming an LIR when they only need a small assignment, and this has lead to a waste of IP allocations .. however my understanding is that this policy isn't designed to limit PA space assignments anyway ... it is designed to make PI harder to obtain, thus steering yet more people into the LIR route (whether they need to be an LIR or not) ...
How many LIRs find RIPE referring customers to them because they needed an assignment? Few I suspect - they all either get told "go find one from this list" or otherwise "become an LIR" and pay the small LIR fee.
Maybe its just me only seeing the glass as half full?
Jon
On 19 Jun 2009, at 09:16, Heidrich Attila wrote:
I think you do.
Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner.
I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals.
I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind.
Attila
-----Eredeti üzenet-----
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont.
the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice.
-------------- Ezen uzenet kizarolag a cimzettjenek szol es olyan bizalmas jellegu informaciokat tartalmazhat, amelyek feltarasat jogszabaly vagy szerzodes tiltja. Amennyiben a jelen uzenetet On teves kezbesites folytan kapta, kerjuk haladektalanul ertesitsen bennunket es az uzenetet annak csatolmanyaival egyutt torolje. Amennyiben On nem cimzettje a jelen uzenetnek, annak es mellekleteinek elolvasasa, masolasa, tovabbitasa, vagy barmely celbol torteno felhasznalasa szigoruan tilos. Megjegyezzuk, hogy az e-mail utjan torteno kozlesek nem garantaljak az elkuldott uzenetek bizalmas jellegenek es teljessegenek megorzeset, valamint az uzenetek megfelelo kezbesiteset. A fentieken tulmenoen, a Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., annak kapcsolt vallalkozasai, illetve az altaluk megbizott harmadik felek a jelen e-mail cimrol kuldott, vagy arra erkezo barmely uzenetet ellenorizhetnek, lemasolhatnak, felhasznalhatnak vagy harmadik fel reszere tovabbithatnak.
This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain confidential information protected from disclosure by law or contract. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify us and delete it together with its attachments. If you are not an addressee of this message, reading, copying, distribution or use for any purpose of the contents of this message or its attachments is strictly forbidden. Additionally, please note that communication by email guarantees neither the confidentiality nor the completeness or proper receipt of the messages sent. Furthermore, Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., its affiliates and third parties retained by them may monitor, copy, use or forward to third parties any outgoing messages from and incoming messages to this email address.
Hi,
Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests.
RIPE policies are proposed and voted by the membership, it can not get any more democratic than that ! If you do not like them: VOTE - you do not have to be at the meeting to send a proxy, and I do not say this as I am in favor of charing for PI space (I am neutral on the point) - I say it as it is how working members organisation stay alive.
We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members
I am in the UK, I am Nominet member as well. I went to Nominet Manchester consultation and to the best of my knowledge what you are saying is totally wrong. The board has currently no say on pricing, it is one of the point under discussion and any change in this direction will need to be voted. Feel free to ask nom-steer for a long discussion on the matter should you not want to take my word for it (and you have no reason to do). Regards, Thomas Mangin Technical Director -- Exa Networks Limited - http://www.exa-networks.co.uk/ Company No. 04922037 - VAT no. 829 1565 09 27-29 Mill Field Road, BD16 1PY, UK Phone: +44 (0) 845 145 1234 - Fax: +44 (0) 1274 567646
And sadly it is a precedent ... EUR50 this year .... EUR500 the year after ... EUR5000 the year after that ??
Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests.
We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members
I totally agree that RIPE have been needlessly steering everyone into becoming an LIR when they only need a small assignment, and this has lead to a waste of IP allocations .. however my understanding is that this policy isn't designed to limit PA space assignments anyway ... it is designed to make PI harder to obtain, thus steering yet more people into the LIR route (whether they need to be an LIR or not) ...
How many LIRs find RIPE referring customers to them because they needed an assignment? Few I suspect - they all either get told "go find one from this list" or otherwise "become an LIR" and pay the small LIR fee.
Maybe its just me only seeing the glass as half full?
Jon
On 19 Jun 2009, at 09:16, Heidrich Attila wrote:
I think you do.
Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner.
I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals.
I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind.
Attila
-----Eredeti üzenet-----
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont.
the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice.
-------------- Ezen uzenet kizarolag a cimzettjenek szol es olyan bizalmas jellegu informaciokat tartalmazhat, amelyek feltarasat jogszabaly vagy szerzodes tiltja. Amennyiben a jelen uzenetet On teves kezbesites folytan kapta, kerjuk haladektalanul ertesitsen bennunket es az uzenetet annak csatolmanyaival egyutt torolje. Amennyiben On nem cimzettje a jelen uzenetnek, annak es mellekleteinek elolvasasa, masolasa, tovabbitasa, vagy barmely celbol torteno felhasznalasa szigoruan tilos. Megjegyezzuk, hogy az e-mail utjan torteno kozlesek nem garantaljak az elkuldott uzenetek bizalmas jellegenek es teljessegenek megorzeset, valamint az uzenetek megfelelo kezbesiteset. A fentieken tulmenoen, a Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., annak kapcsolt vallalkozasai, illetve az altaluk megbizott harmadik felek a jelen e-mail cimrol kuldott, vagy arra erkezo barmely uzenetet ellenorizhetnek, lemasolhatnak, felhasznalhatnak vagy harmadik fel reszere tovabbithatnak.
This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain confidential information protected from disclosure by law or contract. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify us and delete it together with its attachments. If you are not an addressee of this message, reading, copying, distribution or use for any purpose of the contents of this message or its attachments is strictly forbidden. Additionally, please note that communication by email guarantees neither the confidentiality nor the completeness or proper receipt of the messages sent. Furthermore, Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., its affiliates and third parties retained by them may monitor, copy, use or forward to third parties any outgoing messages from and incoming messages to this email address.
On 19 Jun 2009, at 10:46, Thomas Mangin wrote:
RIPE policies are proposed and voted by the membership, it can not get any more democratic than that ! If you do not like them: VOTE - you do not have to be at the meeting to send a proxy, and I do not say this as I am in favor of charing for PI space (I am neutral on the point) - I say it as it is how working members organisation stay alive.
Hi, A point of order if I may. RIPE policies are NOT decided by a vote, but by a general consensus at meetings AND on the RIPE working group mailing lists. The mailing lists are open to all. Some will benefit from increased participation from genuinely interested sections of the community. ;-) You can read more about the process here http://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/ Kind wishes, Andy
Andy, That you for the correction and clarification. I will apologise to have spread inaccurate information to this list. I was _sure_ that policies were voted, hopefully I did not bet anything :D That is what you get to not read the documents yourself and participate enough ... Regards, Thomas Mangin Technical Director -- Exa Networks Limited - http://www.exa-networks.co.uk/ Company No. 04922037 - VAT no. 829 1565 09 27-29 Mill Field Road, BD16 1PY, UK Phone: +44 (0) 845 145 1234 - Fax: +44 (0) 1274 567646 On 19 Jun 2009, at 12:57, Andy Davidson wrote:
On 19 Jun 2009, at 10:46, Thomas Mangin wrote:
RIPE policies are proposed and voted by the membership, it can not get any more democratic than that ! If you do not like them: VOTE - you do not have to be at the meeting to send a proxy, and I do not say this as I am in favor of charing for PI space (I am neutral on the point) - I say it as it is how working members organisation stay alive.
Hi,
A point of order if I may.
RIPE policies are NOT decided by a vote, but by a general consensus at meetings AND on the RIPE working group mailing lists. The mailing lists are open to all. Some will benefit from increased participation from genuinely interested sections of the community. ;-)
You can read more about the process here http://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/
Kind wishes, Andy
At 12:57 PM 19-06-09 +0100, Andy Davidson wrote:
On 19 Jun 2009, at 10:46, Thomas Mangin wrote:
RIPE policies are proposed and voted by the membership, it can not get any more democratic than that ! If you do not like them: VOTE - you do not have to be at the meeting to send a proxy, and I do not say this as I am in favor of charing for PI space (I am neutral on the point) - I say it as it is how working members organisation stay alive.
Hi,
A point of order if I may.
RIPE policies are NOT decided by a vote, but by a general consensus at meetings AND on the RIPE working group mailing lists. The mailing lists are open to all. Some will benefit from increased participation from genuinely interested sections of the community. ;-)
I am on the address-policy mailing list but it was made very clear to me on that list last year: "...the address policy WG does not have the power to actually decide on the final charging scheme. We give input to the AGM (= annual general meeting of all NCC members), and the AGM decides on the final charging scheme to be implemented." I have no problem with cleaning up records and doing whatever is necessary. But the "policy" process is *totally* disconnected from the charging scheme - which is *only* discussed at the AGM and to quote Nick Hilliard "The final decision to put this into the charging scheme was made at the General Meeting in Dubai, but it was talked about at a couple of others." And when I pressed onward with:
Maybe I missed the discussion in regards to 2007-01 where it was stated that the charging algorithm would change.
The answer I got was "Yes, you missed the discussion. It took place at RIPE meetings, not on the mailing list, and for the reasons you specify: billing is outside the scope of apwg." So stating that the mailing lists are where we should go to discuss these issues is totally false. This issue of charging was covered TOTALLY outside the context of any mailing list. -Hank
You can read more about the process here http://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/
Kind wishes, Andy
Judging by the RIPE statistics posted in regards to hostmaster response time everything is great: http://www.ripe.net/info/stats/rs/rt-hostmaster.html For the last 2 weeks response time is less than 1 day. Well due to the "2007-01 Phase 2 Implementation: Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC", I have been submitting tickets to move ASNs assigned to my LIR over a decade ago to other LIRs which are now the owner of that ASN (yet now is billed to my LIR). So starting on June 16 - 6 days ago I submitted 6 "move requests" and even got back ticket acknowledgments: 2009063188, 2009063190, etc. and yesterday a 7th request. Yet, I have not heard back from RIPE NCC. Yet, the stats graphs shows all ticket requests answered within 1 day. Is it just me?! -Hank
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 hi Hank, yes, the response time listed in the graph are not "accurate". Regarding the "moves" from LIR to LIR I got the following reply on my own request: - --- We did not forget about your request. We are currently drafting a procedure document for this process which will become publicly available soon. As soon as the procedure has been published we will move the resources in question from de.xxxxx over to de.connectingbytes as requested. - --- So I guess it will just take some time. That it didn't come into the RIPE's mind, that *some* LIR's will have to move some PI / ASN is "strange" ;) Cheers, Patrick Am 22.06.2009 06:45, schrieb Hank Nussbacher:
Judging by the RIPE statistics posted in regards to hostmaster response time everything is great: http://www.ripe.net/info/stats/rs/rt-hostmaster.html
For the last 2 weeks response time is less than 1 day.
Well due to the "2007-01 Phase 2 Implementation: Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC", I have been submitting tickets to move ASNs assigned to my LIR over a decade ago to other LIRs which are now the owner of that ASN (yet now is billed to my LIR).
So starting on June 16 - 6 days ago I submitted 6 "move requests" and even got back ticket acknowledgments: 2009063188, 2009063190, etc. and yesterday a 7th request. Yet, I have not heard back from RIPE NCC.
Yet, the stats graphs shows all ticket requests answered within 1 day.
Is it just me?!
-Hank
- -- ConnectingBytes GmbH - "www.kambach.net" | In der Steele 35, 40599 Düsseldorf, Germany | Telefon: 0800 / 900 2580 - 1, Fax: 0800 / 900 2580 - 2 | Email: pkambach@kambach.net | Web: http://www.kambach.net | | Geschäftsführer: Patrick Kambach | Amtsgericht Düsseldorf, HRB 60009 | Ust-IdNr.: DE815028832, Steuernummer: 106/5736/0037 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iD8DBQFKPxpeCIR+kawbQF0RAoxhAKDJrSV4NkUGmM9FJgeAsbeyJH7XWACdG+qp mO21ll8ODhmSUWw3nHccxig= =y/lH -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 07:45 AM 22-06-09 +0200, Patrick Kambach wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
hi Hank,
yes, the response time listed in the graph are not "accurate". Regarding the "moves" from LIR to LIR I got the following reply on my own request:
- --- We did not forget about your request. We are currently drafting a procedure document for this process which will become publicly available soon. As soon as the procedure has been published we will move the resources in question from de.xxxxx over to de.connectingbytes as requested. - ---
So I guess it will just take some time. That it didn't come into the RIPE's mind, that *some* LIR's will have to move some PI / ASN is "strange" ;)
They did consider it as detailed in section B of Impact of Policy on RIPE NCC Operations/Services inside: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2007-01.html I guess from Aug 2008 till now hasn't been enough time for RIPE NCC to get up to speed on this. Nonetheless, that doesn't excuse their "altering" their response time stats to show stellar response time. -Hank
On 22 Jun 2009, at 06:45, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
Judging by the RIPE statistics posted in regards to hostmaster response time everything is great: http://www.ripe.net/info/stats/rs/rt-hostmaster.html
For the last 2 weeks response time is less than 1 day.
I think that relates to the speed at which your auto response was despatched :( J Regards, Jon Morby FidoNet Registration Services Ltd web: www.fido.net tel: +44 (0) 845 004 3050 fax: +44 (0) 845 004 3051
Jon Morby wrote:
On 22 Jun 2009, at 06:45, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
Judging by the RIPE statistics posted in regards to hostmaster response time everything is great: http://www.ripe.net/info/stats/rs/rt-hostmaster.html
For the last 2 weeks response time is less than 1 day.
I think that relates to the speed at which your auto response was despatched :(
No it relates to hostmaster related requests and their response. They actually respond within 1-2 days in general to requests. Doesn't mean that your issue is solved then. Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen -- Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair http://www.airwire.ie Phone: 091-865 968
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dear Hank, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
Judging by the RIPE statistics posted in regards to hostmaster response time everything is great: http://www.ripe.net/info/stats/rs/rt-hostmaster.html
For the last 2 weeks response time is less than 1 day.
Well due to the "2007-01 Phase 2 Implementation: Direct Internet Resource Assignments to End Users from the RIPE NCC", I have been submitting tickets to move ASNs assigned to my LIR over a decade ago to other LIRs which are now the owner of that ASN (yet now is billed to my LIR).
So starting on June 16 - 6 days ago I submitted 6 "move requests" and even got back ticket acknowledgments: 2009063188, 2009063190, etc. and yesterday a 7th request. Yet, I have not heard back from RIPE NCC.
Yet, the stats graphs shows all ticket requests answered within 1 day.
In order not to disrupt day-to-day operations like resource requests, which have the highest priority, we have created a separate ticket queue with lower priority for End User contracts. We have mentioned this at http://www.ripe.net/rs/pi-existing-assignments.html. We will take your feedback into account and add more information on the statistics page and acknowledgments sent to the LIR. With regards to the billing of resources, Up to September, LIRs can indicate which resources should stay with their LIR and which not. If in the interface provided through the LIR Portal you select 'Not My End User', you will not be billed for the specific resource in 2010. Move requests are taken into account but will be handled over a longer period of time. I hope this clarifies, however if you have any further questions or feedback don't hesitate to contact me. Kind regards, Andrea Cima RIPE NCC
Is it just me?!
-Hank
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAko/VPwACgkQXOgsmPkFrjMsRwCgjVZvVmi20qf9n+qOMC01tCtn JCAAn2BbgKOij34nxLfi5jIGCH1k9NZ4 =6lAN -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
I think you do. Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner. I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals. I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind. Attila -----Eredeti üzenet-----
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont. the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice. -------------- Ezen uzenet kizarolag a cimzettjenek szol es olyan bizalmas jellegu informaciokat tartalmazhat, amelyek feltarasat jogszabaly vagy szerzodes tiltja. Amennyiben a jelen uzenetet On teves kezbesites folytan kapta, kerjuk haladektalanul ertesitsen bennunket es az uzenetet annak csatolmanyaival egyutt torolje. Amennyiben On nem cimzettje a jelen uzenetnek, annak es mellekleteinek elolvasasa, masolasa, tovabbitasa, vagy barmely celbol torteno felhasznalasa szigoruan tilos. Megjegyezzuk, hogy az e-mail utjan torteno kozlesek nem garantaljak az elkuldott uzenetek bizalmas jellegenek es teljessegenek megorzeset, valamint az uzenetek megfelelo kezbesiteset. A fentieken tulmenoen, a Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., annak kapcsolt vallalkozasai, illetve az altaluk megbizott harmadik felek a jelen e-mail cimrol kuldott, vagy arra erkezo barmely uzenetet ellenorizhetnek, lemasolhatnak, felhasznalhatnak vagy harmadik fel reszere tovabbithatnak. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain confidential information protected from disclosure by law or contract. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify us and delete it together with its attachments. If you are not an addressee of this message, reading, copying, distribution or use for any purpose of the contents of this message or its attachments is strictly forbidden. Additionally, please note that communication by email guarantees neither the confidentiality nor the completeness or proper receipt of the messages sent. Furthermore, Hungarian Telephone and Cable Corp., its affiliates and third parties retained by them may monitor, copy, use or forward to third parties any outgoing messages from and incoming messages to this email address.
participants (11)
-
Andrea Cima -
Andy Davidson -
David Crane -
Geraint Evans -
Hank Nussbacher -
Heidrich Attila -
Jon Morby -
Martin List-Petersen -
Patrick Kambach -
Sven Olaf Kamphuis -
Thomas Mangin