Clarification re proposed Charging Scheme 2012
Hi, the proposed CS2012 contains the following footnote to the table for the calculation of membership categories: "Note 1: All IPv4 and IPv6 addresses (Provider Independent and Provider Aggregatable) are taken into account." For clarification, does this mean all PI space managed by the LIR on behalf of End Users, or only PI space directly assigned to the LIR? If the former, what is the justification to charging for this space twice, once through moving into a higher category and again through the EUR50 annual charge for Independent Resources? rgds, Sascha Luck ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Hi Sascha, Yes, PI address space is taken into account twofold for two reasons. Firstly, on average, a PI request takes more time for staff to handle, administer and register properly than a PA assignment or allocation request. Secondly, if PI space is not be taken into account for categorisation it would favour larger PI requests over PA requests in certain cases. For example, if a /18 is requested and would put an LIR into a larger category, if we did not take the PI resource into account for the categorisation, requesting a /18 of PI space would be beneficial over a requesting a /18 of PA space. Regards, Jochem On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Sascha Luck wrote:
Hi,
the proposed CS2012 contains the following footnote to the table for the calculation of membership categories:
"Note 1: All IPv4 and IPv6 addresses (Provider Independent and Provider Aggregatable) are taken into account."
For clarification, does this mean all PI space managed by the LIR on behalf of End Users, or only PI space directly assigned to the LIR?
If the former, what is the justification to charging for this space twice, once through moving into a higher category and again through the EUR50 annual charge for Independent Resources?
rgds, Sascha Luck
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Hi Jochem, On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 07:35:38PM +0200, Jochem de Ruig wrote:
For example, if a /18 is requested and would put an LIR into a larger category, if we did not take the PI resource into account for the categorisation, requesting a /18 of PI space would be beneficial over a requesting a /18 of PA space.
Right, this makes kind of sense for PI space assigned to the requesting LIR. What about space requested on behalf of end users - the LIR does not benefit from the use of this space, in fact after 2007-01 it merely handles the request on behalf of the end user and the NCC. Regards, Sascha Luck ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
On 12/10/2011 18:48, Sascha Luck wrote:
Hi Jochem,
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 07:35:38PM +0200, Jochem de Ruig wrote:
For example, if a /18 is requested and would put an LIR into a larger category, if we did not take the PI resource into account for the categorisation, requesting a /18 of PI space would be beneficial over a requesting a /18 of PA space. Right, this makes kind of sense for PI space assigned to the requesting LIR. What about space requested on behalf of end users - the LIR does not benefit from the use of this space, in fact after 2007-01 it merely handles the request on behalf of the end user and the NCC.
The LIR is free to charge the end user for this service, surely? Or am I confused? Nigel ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:52:28PM +0100, Nigel Titley wrote:
The LIR is free to charge the end user for this service, surely? Or am I confused?
In fact, the LIR *must* charge the end-user for the service, the policy says so. That is not my question though, I would like to know whether end-user assigned PI space counts into the category classification. If so, how are situations handled where an end-user moves their PI space management to a different LIR during the billing year? - Is the original LIR entitled to a refund, provided it now falls into a lower category? - Does the "receiving" LIR owe a top-up fee if it now exceeds its "bundle" and moves to a higher category? Regards, Sascha Luck ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
In fact End-User PI space does not have benefits for LIR so I really think counting PI space into the category classification is wrong when RIPE Charge END-Users for Independent Resources 50EUR annual. -- I Hamed Shafaghi I I Managing Director I I Skydsl® Telecom I hamed@skydsl.ir I www.skydsl.ir I On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 9:40 PM, Sascha Luck <lists-ripe@c4inet.net> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:52:28PM +0100, Nigel Titley wrote:
The LIR is free to charge the end user for this service, surely? Or am I confused?
In fact, the LIR *must* charge the end-user for the service, the policy says so. That is not my question though, I would like to know whether end-user assigned PI space counts into the category classification. If so, how are situations handled where an end-user moves their PI space management to a different LIR during the billing year?
- Is the original LIR entitled to a refund, provided it now falls into a lower category?
- Does the "receiving" LIR owe a top-up fee if it now exceeds its "bundle" and moves to a higher category?
Regards, Sascha Luck
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view
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---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
On 12/10/2011 19:10, Sascha Luck wrote:
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:52:28PM +0100, Nigel Titley wrote:
The LIR is free to charge the end user for this service, surely? Or am I confused? In fact, the LIR *must* charge the end-user for the service, the policy says so. That is not my question though, I would like to know whether end-user assigned PI space counts into the category classification. If so, how are situations handled where an end-user moves their PI space management to a different LIR during the billing year?
- Is the original LIR entitled to a refund, provided it now falls into a lower category?
- Does the "receiving" LIR owe a top-up fee if it now exceeds its "bundle" and moves to a higher category?
Hmm, good point. My gut feeling is that a snapshot is taken at the end of the year, at which time the category classification is recalculated. So, no top-ups, no refunds. However, I'm willing to be corrected Nigel ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Hi Sasha, Nigel, Just to confirm Nigel is correct we take a snapshot. We use the information we have in the registry on 30 September 2011. Rgds, Jochem On Oct 13, 2011, at 12:37 AM, Nigel Titley wrote:
On 12/10/2011 19:10, Sascha Luck wrote:
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 06:52:28PM +0100, Nigel Titley wrote:
The LIR is free to charge the end user for this service, surely? Or am I confused? In fact, the LIR *must* charge the end-user for the service, the policy says so. That is not my question though, I would like to know whether end-user assigned PI space counts into the category classification. If so, how are situations handled where an end-user moves their PI space management to a different LIR during the billing year?
- Is the original LIR entitled to a refund, provided it now falls into a lower category?
- Does the "receiving" LIR owe a top-up fee if it now exceeds its "bundle" and moves to a higher category?
Hmm, good point. My gut feeling is that a snapshot is taken at the end of the year, at which time the category classification is recalculated. So, no top-ups, no refunds.
However, I'm willing to be corrected
Nigel
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Hi Jochem, On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 09:52:47AM +0200, Jochem de Ruig wrote:
Just to confirm Nigel is correct we take a snapshot. We use the information we have in the registry on 30 September 2011.
thank you for the information. I would still like an answer to the following questions: a) are Independent Resources not assigned to the LIR itself included in the category calculation and, if yes, b) what is the justification for this change? I accept your point on LIR-assigned Indepndent Resources and preventing LIRs from getting extra space "on the cheap". Kind Regards, Sascha Luck ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Hi Sascha,
Just to confirm Nigel is correct we take a snapshot. We use the information we have in the registry on 30 September 2011.
thank you for the information.
I would still like an answer to the following questions:
a) are Independent Resources not assigned to the LIR itself included in the category calculation and, if yes, b) what is the justification for this change?
Yes if they are still registered with us under your LIR as the sponsoring LIR. This is not a change, this has been the case since we started charging an additional fee for Independent Resources. There is no per PI assignment fee if the sponsoring LIR lists the resource as not my end User anymore before the snapshot date. Regards, Jochem ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 04:26:23PM +0200, Jochem de Ruig wrote:
This is not a change, this has been the case since we started charging an additional fee for Independent Resources. There is no per PI assignment fee if the sponsoring LIR lists the resource as not my end User anymore before the snapshot date.
I am not asking about the annual charge for independent resources but the fact that they are to be used to calculate the billing score for members. The 2011 billing scheme states: "To determine a billing category, a score is calculated based on Aggregatable Internet number resources made to a member over time." It specifically refers to PA resources, so including end-user Independent resources is a *fundamental* change. The annual charge, of course, applies *as well*, so these resources are charges, in fact, twice. I have already accepted that IRs assigned *to the LIR* should be included to prevent a LIR from using PI as "cheap PA", what I would like to know, still, is how including *end-user assigned* IR is justified. regards, Sascha Luck ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
On Oct 13, 2011, at 4:49 PM, Sascha Luck wrote:
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 04:26:23PM +0200, Jochem de Ruig wrote:
This is not a change, this has been the case since we started charging an additional fee for Independent Resources. There is no per PI assignment fee if the sponsoring LIR lists the resource as not my end User anymore before the snapshot date.
I am not asking about the annual charge for independent resources but the fact that they are to be used to calculate the billing score for members.
Ah ok, misunderstood that.
The 2011 billing scheme states:
"To determine a billing category, a score is calculated based on Aggregatable Internet number resources made to a member over time."
It specifically refers to PA resources, so including end-user Independent resources is a *fundamental* change.
The annual charge, of course, applies *as well*, so these resources are charges, in fact, twice.
See your point the text is unclear. To confirm yes, we do not differentiate between PI for Infrastructure or for PI for customers (the LIR is the sponsoring LIR). Regards, Jochem ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
participants (4)
-
Hamed Shafaghi -
Jochem de Ruig -
Nigel Titley -
Sascha Luck