Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different. On 2014-05-28 09:33, Edward Dore wrote:
Have you asked them why they believe the IP address space in question is being used to run open/anonymous proxy servers?
Edward Dore Freethought Internet
On 28 May 2014, at 09:30, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote:
I have already gone through the process of informing them, using their corrections form on their website, and pleading with them to update their database. For years, this worked just fine. They used to be a very cooperative company. Starting last week, they began marking huge sections of my ip addresses as anonymous proxies and completely removing any country information from them. Then these inaccuracies were then
sold to all their clients and now sections of my ip ranges are all screwed up now and as a direct result of that, I lose business in my
line of work. Here is the response I received from them after a very
long email to them:
Dear Mr. Twyler,
As you're aware, we endeavor to provide accurate IP geolocation of Internet end-users and to identify proxies where possible in our IP intelligence products. We may not accept corrections to our data where we believe they do not increase the accuracy of our IP geolocation or improve proxy identification. If you'd like to communicate with our legal counsel, we invite you to email legal@maxmind.com.
Regards, Jason Ketola V.P., Operations
This response would have been tolerable had I been a proxy supplier.
However I am not. And this company is completely unwilling to reconsider my case, even though I've informed them that they are causing me a massive loss of business by doing this.
On 2014-05-28 09:10, Dpto. Datos Television Costa Blanca wrote: Hi Jared,
What do you mean exactly? MaxMind != RIR
MaxMind is only a company who sell geolocation services based on IP Address. Being member of a RIR is a completely different thing.
Also, whats wrong on the maxmind geo database?
I have updated several IP blocks on Ripe Database and maxmind updated it.
Best Regards,
El 28/05/2014 8:55, admin@intl-alliance.com escribió: Here is a question I propose to all RIPE NCC LIR members:
What is the point in remaining a LIR member of the RIPE NCC if private companies like www.maxmind.com [1] do not have to adhere to the data
that’s officially published in the NCC ip address database? If private companies are allowed to produce their own ip databases based on information not obtained in the official NCC database, why continue on with membership here? It seems pointless if a private company can completely ignore a LIR database, produce and then sell faulty databases to thousands of websites.
Jared Twyler Chief Executive Officer IAPS Security Services, L.L.C. Skype: iaps_support FB: http://www.facebook.com/iapscorp [2] Blog: http://www.jareds-blog.com [3] Web: http://www.intl-alliance.com/store [4]
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-- Daniel Baeza Centro de Observación de Red Dpto. Internet y Telefonía Television Costa Blanca S.L. Telf. 966190565 WEB: http://www.tvt.es [6] Correo: datos@tvt-datos.es
--AVISO LEGAL--
En cumplimiento de la Ley Orgánica 15/1999, de 13 de diciembre de protección de datos de carácter personal, se pone en conocimiento del destinatario del presente correo electrónico, que los datos incluidos en este mensaje, están dirigidos exclusivamente al citado destinatario cuyo nombre aparece en el encabezamiento, por lo que si usted no es la persona interesada rogamos nos comunique el error de envío y se abstenga de realizar copias del mensaje o de los datos contenidos en el mismo o remitirlo o entregarlo a otra persona, procediendo a borrarlo de inmediato. Asimismo le informamos que sus datos de correo han quedado incluidos en nuestra base de datos a fin de dirigirle, por este medio, comunicaciones comerciales, profesionales e informativas y que usted dispone de los derechos de acceso, rectificación, cancelación y especificación de los mismos, derechos que podrá hacer efectivos dirigiéndose a Televisión Costa Blanca, S.L., C/ San Policarpo 41 Bajo. C.P: 03181 Torrevieja (Alicante).
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Links: ------ [1] http://www.maxmind.com [2] http://www.facebook.com/iapscorp [3] http://www.jareds-blog.com [4] http://www.intl-alliance.com/store [5] https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [6] http://www.tvt.es
That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different.
I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem. What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE. -- Alfredo Sola http://www.tecnocratica.net/
I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: Dear Jared, Thank you for your email. We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources. However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also the reputation of the providers of this data. And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools. -- Thank you again for bring up this topic. Kind regards, Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:
That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different.
I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem.
What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown.
So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE.
Interesting that RIPE don't use the RIPE data… https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.98.2 The geoloc-frame places it in Norway while the Registry browser (on the same page) places it in US (which is correct)... Yours Jan Marius Evang Media Network Services AS44654 On 28. mai 2014, at 11:02, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote:
I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation:
Dear Jared,
Thank you for your email.
We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources.
However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also the reputation of the providers of this data.
And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo
Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools.
-- Thank you again for bring up this topic.
Kind regards,
Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC
On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:
That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different.
I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem.
What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown.
So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
On 28.05.2014, at 11:17, Jan Marius Evang wrote:
Interesting that RIPE don't use the RIPE data…
https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.98.2
The geoloc-frame places it in Norway while the Registry browser (on the same page) places it in US (which is correct)...
I'm not fully up with the rules, but wouldn't that need ARIN IP-Numbers? As others have already stated, maxmind (and the geoloc-browser) try to provide where the USER behind an IP address is. If I have no other data, this is the language attribute of the browser coming from that IP-block. This is what tv stations et. al. want from geolocation. Which might turn up the question that should have been asked in the first place: how do we deal in the future with a more and more internationalized internet, with user s demanding services as VPN/proxy, to reach content locked away behind an anachronistic geo filter? When I travel or work abroad, this doesn't mean I want to be locked out of stuff I look at every day, as in the pre-internet era. As a user, I don't care who promised what when signing a content deal, maybe 30 years ago. Matthias ps: this question is not to be answered here, as this would become off-topic. -- UCND United City Network Development GmbH Steingasse 23 1030 Wien, Österreich FN 188089b beim Handelsgericht Wien UID ATU 54974906 Mag. Matthias Šubik Tel.: +43 676 83820-787
Matthias - I fully welcome this question to be asked and answered here. But let me state the obvious: the rules are created by a bunch of old men sitting around in closed door meetings thinking about how much money they can collect by limiting who can see what content and who cannot. Its trying to play God on the modern internet, which cannot really be done any more. The old men writing rules and laws are so out of touch with modern day society its sickening. On 2014-05-28 10:51, Mag. Matthias Šubik wrote:
On 28.05.2014, at 11:17, Jan Marius Evang wrote:
Interesting that RIPE don't use the RIPE data…
https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.98.2
The geoloc-frame places it in Norway while the Registry browser (on the same page) places it in US (which is correct)...
I'm not fully up with the rules, but wouldn't that need ARIN IP-Numbers? As others have already stated, maxmind (and the geoloc-browser) try to provide where the USER behind an IP address is. If I have no other data, this is the language attribute of the browser coming from that IP-block.
This is what tv stations et. al. want from geolocation. Which might turn up the question that should have been asked in the first place: how do we deal in the future with a more and more internationalized internet, with user s demanding services as VPN/proxy, to reach content locked away behind an anachronistic geo filter? When I travel or work abroad, this doesn't mean I want to be locked out of stuff I look at every day, as in the pre-internet era. As a user, I don't care who promised what when signing a content deal, maybe 30 years ago.
Matthias ps: this question is not to be answered here, as this would become off-topic.
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On 28. mai 2014, at 11:51, Mag. Matthias Šubik wrote:
On 28.05.2014, at 11:17, Jan Marius Evang wrote:
Interesting that RIPE don't use the RIPE data…
https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.98.2
The geoloc-frame places it in Norway while the Registry browser (on the same page) places it in US (which is correct)...
I'm not fully up with the rules, but wouldn't that need ARIN IP-Numbers? As others have already stated, maxmind (and the geoloc-browser) try to provide where the USER behind an IP address is. If I have no other data, this is the language attribute of the browser coming from that IP-block.
No, there are no rules concerning where the IP address blocks are actually used. But, I'll give you another example if that calms your mind. https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.96.193 Map says Oslo, Actual location is Amsterdam. (Registry browser frame is correct) Yours Jan Marius Evang Media Network Services AS44654
On 28.05.14 11:17, Jan Marius Evang wrote:
Interesting that RIPE don't use the RIPE data…
https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.98.2
The geoloc-frame places it in Norway while the Registry browser (on the same page) places it in US (which is correct)... If you click on the Info button and scroll down to datasource you will interestingly see:
IPv4 information is based on GeoLite data created by MaxMind, which is Copyright 2008 MaxMind, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Please consult MaxMind's license before using this data for non-internal usage. For details on the accuracy of this data, please visit MaxMind's product website. -- Hans Petter Holen Mobile +47 45 06 60 54 | hph@oslo.net | http://hph.oslo.net
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 09:20:21AM +0200, Hans Petter Holen wrote:
If you click on the Info button and scroll down to datasource you will interestingly see:
IPv4 information is based on GeoLite data created by MaxMind, which is Copyright 2008 MaxMind, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Please consult MaxMind's license before using this data for non-internal usage. For details on the accuracy of this data, please visit MaxMind's product website.
Perhaps, whether the community is happy with this would be a good topic to discuss on services-wg. I, for one, cannot be bothered to read MaxMind's small print in order to figure out how I am allowed (or not allowed, as the case may be) to use the stat.ripe.net data... rgds, Sascha Luck
The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted. MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the “country” field in the “inetnum” object:
"It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries"
As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. MaxMind do not “make up” their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind’s algorithms. Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason. Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds’ customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind’s best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible. As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote:
I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation:
Dear Jared,
Thank you for your email.
We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources.
However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also the reputation of the providers of this data.
And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo
Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools.
-- Thank you again for bring up this topic.
Kind regards,
Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC
On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:
That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different.
I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem.
What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown.
So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private company's database and helping them to earn more money where they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information about them. This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a "Village" which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city. So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these "more specific" data is crap for me. As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. Regards Sinan ÖZŞEKERCİ From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM To: admin@intl-alliance.com Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted. MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the "country" field in the "inetnum" object: "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries" As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms. Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason. Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible. As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote: I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: Dear Jared, Thank you for your email. We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources. However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also the reputation of the providers of this data. And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools. -- Thank you again for bring up this topic. Kind regards, Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different. I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem. What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Halle-fuckin-lujah!!! Thats my point exactly. The company causing the disruption is a for-profit company. Its to Maxmind's benefit to do as they please and profit off it. Fuck the smaller companies out there. They get trampled by companies like Maxmind. In my case, when I enter my network and want to trace my ip address on a site like www.whatismyipaddress.com (yes, they utilize Maxmind), I want to see my network information up there. Not some half-assed bullshit proxy information put out there by Maxmind using whatever horse-shit algorithm they cooked up. There is no reliable method that Maxmind can use to determine where our end-users are physically located. So I don't buy into their story about their fancy algorithm or traffic patterns. Again as I said, this is another example of corporate greed. They can't determine shit about my clients, so just mark it as an anonymous proxy because we can't prove it seems to be their game. The only reason they even know that I'm a vpn provider is because I've had to contact them so many times over the years to correct their faulty databases that they probably know me on a first name basis now. Its ridiculous that we have to submit updates to them at all. And even more ludicrous when they claim to analyze traffic patterns and deploy various algorithms, but at the same time for years they couldn't even keep their own databases up to date. They bill their Geoip2 database as an "intelligent" product, but I see nothing intelligent about it. Especially when they mark brand new ip ranges just issued by RIPE as proxies before I've even implemented routing the damned things in our data center. How in the fuck can you justify marking ip ranges as anonymous proxies before the ip addresses are even slapped on a server? Justify that Edward! On 2014-05-28 11:16, Sinan Özşekerci wrote:
I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private company's database and helping them to earn more money where they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information about them.
This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money.
In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a "Village" which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city.
So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these "more specific" data is crap for me.
As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers.
Regards
Sinan ÖZŞEKERCİ
FROM: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] ON BEHALF OF Edward Dore SENT: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM TO: admin@intl-alliance.com CC: members-discuss@ripe.net SUBJECT: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted.
MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database.
Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the "country" field in the "inetnum" object:
"It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries"
As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information.
MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms.
Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason.
Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible.
As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user.
Edward Dore Freethought Internet
On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote:
I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it
would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than
ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation:
Dear Jared,
Thank you for your email.
We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources.
However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile
their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also
the reputation of the providers of this data.
And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net [1] team as there for Geolocation we are using data from
MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo [2]
Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools.
-- Thank you again for bring up this topic.
Kind regards,
Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC
On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:
That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different.
I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem.
What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown.
So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE.
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If you don’t like the MaxMind services or the services of those who use MaxMind data, then don’t use them and go elsewhere. No-one is forcing you to use MaxMind or their clients… I’m pretty sure I already theorised about your new IP address range in a previous message:
Without knowing the intimate details of how MaxMind work, I would guess that they have marked your company as a provider of open proxy servers due to detecting sufficient number of what they believe to be open proxy servers across IP address space allocated to you.
Therefore, instead of marking individual IP addresses in their database as open proxy servers, they are applying this classification to all IP addresses allocated to your LIR, whether or not they have actually seen traffic consistent with what they believe to be an open proxy server originating from that space.
That’s certainly what I would do if I ran any kind of IP address classification service, be it GeoIP and anti-fraud like MaxMind or anti-spam like Spamhaus etc.
This is similar to how many anti-spam RBLs work - if you get enough instances in a /24, then you mark the whole /24. If you get enough /24s from the same allocation, then you mark the whole allocation or even the whole provider. Obviously it’s up to each list operator to determine their own thresholds based on what provides the desired level of accuracy for them. The RIPE allocations list is freely available at ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/stats/membership/alloclist.txt and the other RIRs publish similar lists. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 11:35, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote:
Halle-fuckin-lujah!!! Thats my point exactly. The company causing the disruption is a for-profit company. Its to Maxmind's benefit to do as they please and profit off it. Fuck the smaller companies out there. They get trampled by companies like Maxmind. In my case, when I enter my network and want to trace my ip address on a site like www.whatismyipaddress.com (yes, they utilize Maxmind), I want to see my network information up there. Not some half-assed bullshit proxy information put out there by Maxmind using whatever horse-shit algorithm they cooked up. There is no reliable method that Maxmind can use to determine where our end-users are physically located. So I don't buy into their story about their fancy algorithm or traffic patterns.
Again as I said, this is another example of corporate greed. They can't determine shit about my clients, so just mark it as an anonymous proxy because we can't prove it seems to be their game. The only reason they even know that I'm a vpn provider is because I've had to contact them so many times over the years to correct their faulty databases that they probably know me on a first name basis now. Its ridiculous that we have to submit updates to them at all. And even more ludicrous when they claim to analyze traffic patterns and deploy various algorithms, but at the same time for years they couldn't even keep their own databases up to date. They bill their Geoip2 database as an "intelligent" product, but I see nothing intelligent about it. Especially when they mark brand new ip ranges just issued by RIPE as proxies before I've even implemented routing the damned things in our data center.
How in the fuck can you justify marking ip ranges as anonymous proxies before the ip addresses are even slapped on a server? Justify that Edward!
On 2014-05-28 11:16, Sinan Özşekerci wrote:
"It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries" As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing
That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different. I think your issue is more a business model
I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private company's database and helping them to earn more money where they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information about them. This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a "Village" which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city. So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these "more specific" data is crap for me. As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. Regards Sinan ÖZŞEKERCİ FROM: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] ON BEHALF OF Edward Dore SENT: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM TO: admin@intl-alliance.com CC: members-discuss@ripe.net SUBJECT: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted. MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the "country" field in the "inetnum" object: their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms. Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason. Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible. As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote: I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: Dear Jared, Thank you for your email. We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources. However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also the reputation of the providers of this data. And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net [1] team as there for Geolocation we are using data from MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo [2] Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools. -- Thank you again for bring up this topic. Kind regards, Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: problem than a registry or IP problem. What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [3] Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. Links: ------ [1] http://stat.ripe.net [2] https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo [3] https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Hi, On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 11:35:39AM +0100, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote:
There is no reliable method that Maxmind can use to determine where our end-users are physically located. So I don't buy into their story about their fancy algorithm or traffic patterns.
This is the point: they *are* telling the world "we don't know where these users are". So what are you complaining about? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
ahh so I think I get it now... We have a lot of customers who are not from this country or do not natively speak English (we are entirely UK based) . So if they opt to use say Spanish websites and resources then Maxmind and others make a drastic assumption about the IP address and/or block those customer(s) use ? One of our customers who had this problem for example runs a Hotel and provides WiFi to their guests. As the language and nationality of those guests is entirely unpredictable , Maxmind will completely screw up that hotels IP origin/location. What happens with those providers who give out IP's from a dynamic pool ? Must be even more hell for them. Well done Maxmind for a madly stupid algorithm.. At least we know where to direct the more litigious customers if they blow a fuse over not being able to watch online content. bill On 28/05/2014 11:52, Gert Doering wrote:
Hi,
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 11:35:39AM +0100, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote:
There is no reliable method that Maxmind can use to determine where our end-users are physically located. So I don't buy into their story about their fancy algorithm or traffic patterns. This is the point: they *are* telling the world "we don't know where these users are". So what are you complaining about?
Gert Doering -- NetMaster
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-- Bill Lewis Kijoma Broadband
Hello,
Halle-fuckin-lujah!!! Thats my point exactly. The company causing the disruption is a for-profit company. Its to Maxmind's benefit to do as they please and profit off it. Fuck the smaller companies out there. They get trampled by companies like Maxmind. In my case, when I enter my network and want to trace my ip address on a site like www.whatismyipaddress.com (yes, they utilize Maxmind), I want to see my network information up there. Not some half-assed bullshit proxy information put out there by Maxmind using whatever horse-shit algorithm they cooked up.
As the discussion is getting completely off-topic for this list and the language used is getting worse and worse please take this discussion off-list. This is not the place to rant over some companies products... Thanks, Sander
i would agree it is not for the list....i mean end of the day, it is their opinion about something---in a world with freedom of speech, we really can not help in this case. even though they are complete wrong about us as well. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hello,
Halle-fuckin-lujah!!! Thats my point exactly. The company causing the disruption is a for-profit company. Its to Maxmind's benefit to do as they please and profit off it. Fuck the smaller companies out there. They get trampled by companies like Maxmind. In my case, when I enter my network and want to trace my ip address on a site like www.whatismyipaddress.com (yes, they utilize Maxmind), I want to see my network information up there. Not some half-assed bullshit proxy information put out there by Maxmind using whatever horse-shit algorithm they cooked up.
As the discussion is getting completely off-topic for this list and the language used is getting worse and worse please take this discussion off-list. This is not the place to rant over some companies products...
Thanks, Sander
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Vpn means the true location of your users cannot be determined. If it cannot be determined then anonymous is correct even if proxy isn't accurate. Geolocation means: can be located. Vpn insures that cannot be done. So, they mark it as cannot be located. What others do with this data: ban your range or not, is up to them. Whether the algorithm is bullshit or not is besides the point. If they screw lots of ranges up, customers won't use them and will use someone else. If there aren't a lot of choices out there other than them, then: business opportunity for you to do it 'right' by your definition. RIR database isn't for location. It's for who a range is assigned to. The LIR assigned a range can then as per policy advertise it anywhere in the world they want depending on their network setup and needs. I am based in Bahrain but because of the level of peering in the region, I may chose to announce some of my range in London for example. Geolocation wise my users are still in Bahrain and so on and so forth. Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. Original Message From: admin@intl-alliance.com Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2014 13:36 To: Sinan Özşekerci Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members Halle-fuckin-lujah!!! Thats my point exactly. The company causing the disruption is a for-profit company. Its to Maxmind's benefit to do as they please and profit off it. Fuck the smaller companies out there. They get trampled by companies like Maxmind. In my case, when I enter my network and want to trace my ip address on a site like www.whatismyipaddress.com (yes, they utilize Maxmind), I want to see my network information up there. Not some half-assed bullshit proxy information put out there by Maxmind using whatever horse-shit algorithm they cooked up. There is no reliable method that Maxmind can use to determine where our end-users are physically located. So I don't buy into their story about their fancy algorithm or traffic patterns. Again as I said, this is another example of corporate greed. They can't determine shit about my clients, so just mark it as an anonymous proxy because we can't prove it seems to be their game. The only reason they even know that I'm a vpn provider is because I've had to contact them so many times over the years to correct their faulty databases that they probably know me on a first name basis now. Its ridiculous that we have to submit updates to them at all. And even more ludicrous when they claim to analyze traffic patterns and deploy various algorithms, but at the same time for years they couldn't even keep their own databases up to date. They bill their Geoip2 database as an "intelligent" product, but I see nothing intelligent about it. Especially when they mark brand new ip ranges just issued by RIPE as proxies before I've even implemented routing the damned things in our data center. How in the fuck can you justify marking ip ranges as anonymous proxies before the ip addresses are even slapped on a server? Justify that Edward! On 2014-05-28 11:16, Sinan Özşekerci wrote:
I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private company's database and helping them to earn more money where they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information about them.
This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money.
In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a "Village" which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city.
So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these "more specific" data is crap for me.
As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers.
Regards
Sinan ÖZŞEKERCİ
FROM: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] ON BEHALF OF Edward Dore SENT: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM TO: admin@intl-alliance.com CC: members-discuss@ripe.net SUBJECT: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted.
MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database.
Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the "country" field in the "inetnum" object:
"It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries"
As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information.
MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms.
Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason.
Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible.
As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user.
Edward Dore Freethought Internet
On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote:
I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it
would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than
ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation:
Dear Jared,
Thank you for your email.
We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources.
However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile
their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also
the reputation of the providers of this data.
And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net [1] team as there for Geolocation we are using data from
MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo [2]
Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools.
-- Thank you again for bring up this topic.
Kind regards,
Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC
On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:
That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different.
I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem.
What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown.
So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [3]
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Links: ------ [1] http://stat.ripe.net [2] https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo [3] https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
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hi, this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites such as netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different country. The least this does is change their web pages to the language making it near impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service due to being outside the service coverage area. We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the content providers to resolve their location database issues as the likes of Maxmind are near impossible to gain any action out of from our experience. It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them then the problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting Maxmind etc.. Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level country data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising data? I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these databases with junk for the fun of it too.. -- Bill Lewis Kijoma Broadband On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan Özs,ekerci wrote:
I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private company's database and helping them to earn more money where they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information about them.
This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money.
In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a "Village" which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city.
So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these "more specific" data is crap for me.
As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers.
Regards
Sinan ÖZS,EKERCI.
*From:*members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Edward Dore *Sent:* Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM *To:* admin@intl-alliance.com *Cc:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted.
MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database.
Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the "country" field in the "inetnum" object:
"It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries"
As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information.
MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms.
Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason.
Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible.
As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user.
Edward Dore Freethought Internet
On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin@intl-alliance.com <mailto:admin@intl-alliance.com> wrote:
I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation:
Dear Jared,
Thank you for your email.
We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources.
However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also the reputation of the providers of this data.
And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net <http://stat.ripe.net> team as there for Geolocation we are using data from MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo
Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools.
-- Thank you again for bring up this topic.
Kind regards,
Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC
On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:
That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different.
I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem.
What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown.
So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
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You don’t “have to” do anything. They aren’t “forcing" you to correct their data. I certainly can’t see how you can equate it to blackmail - they aren’t trying to extort money from you or threatening you in any way. This claim of somehow being blackmailed by a third party who have never even got in touch with you is essentially the same argument as put forward by people who don’t like being listed on spam RBLs. People are free to create databases of IP addresses and associated attributes based on their opinion and other people are free to use that database if they wish. There is no blackmail/extortion/defamation happening. We use the MaxMind GeoIP database and minFraud service and on the whole find it to be sufficiently accurate for our needs. If the level of accuracy of these services drops such that it starts to causes us problems, then we will stop using these services and MaxMind will have lost a customer, therefore it is in their best interests to keep the data as accurate as possible. Simple free market economics. Perhaps in your case MaxMind don’t have much/any data about your IP addresses and so are trying to guess the location based on the only data available to them - the RIPE database? It sounds like RIPE are using the MaxMind GeoIP database and API for their RIPEstat service and indeed they clearly state this next to the geographic data on the page. The RIPEstat service is completely separate to the RIPE database and can be used to view details about any IP address from any of the RIRs, not just those administered by RIPE. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 11:16, Sinan Özşekerci <sozsekerci@esertelekom.com> wrote:
I can’t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private company’s database and helping them to earn more money where they don’t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information about them.
This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money.
In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a “Village” which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city.
So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these “more specific” data is crap for me.
As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers.
Regards
Sinan ÖZŞEKERCİ
From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM To: admin@intl-alliance.com Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted.
MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database.
Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the “country” field in the “inetnum” object:
"It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries"
As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information.
MaxMind do not “make up” their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind’s algorithms.
Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason.
Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds’ customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind’s best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible.
As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user.
Edward Dore Freethought Internet
On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote:
I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation:
Dear Jared,
Thank you for your email.
We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources.
However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also the reputation of the providers of this data.
And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo
Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools.
-- Thank you again for bring up this topic.
Kind regards,
Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC
On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:
That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different.
I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem.
What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown.
So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Of course they do not contact us directly and claim something. The point is, when they distribute false information about you and causing harm to you, they do not need to contact you directly. As the harmed side, you feel obliged to contact them and persuade them to fix this. Eventually you will be the one who spends time and effort, but they will be the profiting side. That why I used the word blackmailing as a metaphor. I respect the freedom of people to create such databases and I'm not against it. But there is no freedom to distribute content about some others, that cannot be verified to at least some degree, which means totally fabricated. If maximind wants to get on some correct data about our subnets, it easy for them, they only need to look at the RIPE database, since our subnets have the geoloc attributes set for months. Regards Sinan Özşekerci From: Edward Dore [mailto:ripe@freethought-internet.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 1:38 PM To: Sinan Özşekerci Cc: admin@intl-alliance.com; members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members You don't "have to" do anything. They aren't "forcing" you to correct their data. I certainly can't see how you can equate it to blackmail - they aren't trying to extort money from you or threatening you in any way. This claim of somehow being blackmailed by a third party who have never even got in touch with you is essentially the same argument as put forward by people who don't like being listed on spam RBLs. People are free to create databases of IP addresses and associated attributes based on their opinion and other people are free to use that database if they wish. There is no blackmail/extortion/defamation happening. We use the MaxMind GeoIP database and minFraud service and on the whole find it to be sufficiently accurate for our needs. If the level of accuracy of these services drops such that it starts to causes us problems, then we will stop using these services and MaxMind will have lost a customer, therefore it is in their best interests to keep the data as accurate as possible. Simple free market economics. Perhaps in your case MaxMind don't have much/any data about your IP addresses and so are trying to guess the location based on the only data available to them - the RIPE database? It sounds like RIPE are using the MaxMind GeoIP database and API for their RIPEstat service and indeed they clearly state this next to the geographic data on the page. The RIPEstat service is completely separate to the RIPE database and can be used to view details about any IP address from any of the RIRs, not just those administered by RIPE. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 11:16, Sinan Özşekerci <sozsekerci@esertelekom.com> wrote: I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private company's database and helping them to earn more money where they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information about them. This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a "Village" which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city. So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these "more specific" data is crap for me. As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. Regards Sinan ÖZŞEKERCİ From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM To: admin@intl-alliance.com Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted. MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the "country" field in the "inetnum" object: "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries" As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms. Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason. Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible. As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, <mailto:admin@intl-alliance.com> admin@intl-alliance.com wrote: I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: Dear Jared, Thank you for your email. We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources. However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also the reputation of the providers of this data. And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the <http://stat.ripe.net/> stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from MaxMind. <https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo> https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools. -- Thank you again for bring up this topic. Kind regards, Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different. I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem. What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: <https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Hi, On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 09:43:59AM +0100, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote:
I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies.
From a geolocation point of view, this is the same thing: hiding the true location of the user, and as such, geolocation data for these addresses is meaningless.
And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different.
For geolocation questions, the end result is the same thing. I think they did exactly what their customers are paying them for: providing accurate geolocation data where possible, and for services where people are making money by circumventing geolocation restrictions, they are now making this clear. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 5/28/14, 11:42 AM, Gert Doering wrote:
I think they did exactly what their customers are paying them for
Hi, what about RIPE Database Terms and Conditions, art. 4? http://www.ripe.net/data-tools/support/documentation/terms [...] "4. Users may not use the RIPE Database or the data contained therein for advertising, direct marketing, marketing research or similar purposes. 5. A User may not re-package, download, compile, re-distribute or re-use any or all of the RIPE Database or the data contained therein unless he does so only with an insubstantial part of the RIPE Database or the data contained therein or when permission to do so is granted by the RIPE NCC" [...] just asking thank you - -- antonio -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlOFtB8ACgkQJVX0I651yDusaACfVBoIuMCQL2pUdlYyr+5L/oY9 e5oAoMJGuMsXK9FaE6fUnVIzT8NEA/H/ =g+MW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (14)
-
"Mag. Matthias Šubik" -
admin＠intl-alliance.com -
Alfredo Sola -
Antonio Prado -
Bill Lewis -
Edward Dore -
Fahad AlShirawi -
Gert Doering -
Hans Petter Holen -
Jan Marius Evang -
Lu Heng -
Sander Steffann -
Sascha Luck -
Sinan Özşekerci