Re: [members-discuss] [address-policy-wg] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2016 Discussion
Hi, On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 08:53:11AM +0100, Tore Anderson wrote:
One way I believe this could be accomplished is that if you already pay the NCC membership fee or a PI fee, then you automatically get a reasonable quota of gratis ASNs. (Not automatic assignment of those ASNs, but that you won't get a separate charge until you have requested enough ASNs to exceed your quota.)
This would work for me. Agreeing with Tore that this is not supposed to bring in additional revenue, and also not supposed to punish/hurt LIRs that make good use of their ASNs - but to be an incentive to return (or trade away) unused ASNs to make them used again, and to prevent useless hoarding which would burn NCC resources. Gert Doering -- RIPE member, and interested in good resource management -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
On 25/01/2015 19:56, Gert Doering wrote:
On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 08:53:11AM +0100, Tore Anderson wrote:
One way I believe this could be accomplished is that if you already pay the NCC membership fee or a PI fee, then you automatically get a reasonable quota of gratis ASNs. (Not automatic assignment of those ASNs, but that you won't get a separate charge until you have requested enough ASNs to exceed your quota.)
This would work for me.
Agreeing with Tore that this is not supposed to bring in additional revenue, and also not supposed to punish/hurt LIRs that make good use of their ASNs - but to be an incentive to return (or trade away) unused ASNs to make them used again, and to prevent useless hoarding which would burn NCC resources.
I see why this looks attractive, but I don't think it's a good idea. Today's figures from delegated-ripencc-latest and the ripedb show: - 26768 ASNs assigned - 7165 LIRs with ASNs - 6245 with a single ASN assigned - 649 with 2 ASNs Looking at these numbers, even if a quota figure were set as low as 2 ASNs per LIR, that's still over 25% of all ASNs for which there is no reason to return if they're unused. This is not going to encourage efficient garbage collection. As a separate issue, free asn quotas for LIRs are not really within the spirit of RIPE community policy for PI resource assignment. Nick
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 10:08:27PM +0000, Nick Hilliard wrote:
Today's figures from delegated-ripencc-latest and the ripedb show:
- 26768 ASNs assigned - 7165 LIRs with ASNs - 6245 with a single ASN assigned - 649 with 2 ASNs
Looking at these numbers, even if a quota figure were set as low as 2 ASNs per LIR, that's still over 25% of all ASNs for which there is no reason to return if they're unused. This is not going to encourage efficient garbage collection.
Erm. 25% of all *currently assigned* ASNs, whatever that may signify. 2ASN/LIR is ~0.0007% of *all* ASNs (assuming 9k LIRs)
As a separate issue, free asn quotas for LIRs are not really within the spirit of RIPE community policy for PI resource assignment.
Currently all ASN are "free", so how does this proposal make it worse? rgds, Sascha Luck
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 11:48:41AM +0000, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
Erm. 25% of all *currently assigned* ASNs, whatever that may signify. 2ASN/LIR is ~0.0007% of *all* ASNs (assuming 9k LIRs)
Actually my math sucks too. If it's unsigned 32bit, the percentage is ~ 0.0004 rgds, s.
Hi, On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 11:48:41AM +0000, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
Currently all ASN are "free", so how does this proposal make it worse?
ASNs are not free, their cost is hidden in the LIR fee. So, LIRs with few ASes sponsor LIRs with many ASes. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 01:01:46PM +0100, Gert Doering wrote:
So, LIRs with few ASes sponsor LIRs with many ASes.
In the same way that LIRs with one /22 sponsor those with multiple /12. Charging piddly sums for ASN will not fundamentally change this "unfairness". If all this is about is "garbage collection", a possible solution would be to "audit" independent resources yearly - as simple as asking "are these resources still in use and by whom" and reclaim negatives/unreachables. If it is about someone getting something for free, the whole one-LIR-one fee debate needs to be reopened. rgds, Sascha Luck
On 26/01/2015 12:29, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
If all this is about is "garbage collection", a possible solution would be to "audit" independent resources yearly
Sasha, this isn't just about GC; it's about a lot of things, including: - allowing the ASN assignment process to become far simpler and more transparent than it currently is - creating a mechanism to help prevent hoarding of resources - aligning RIPE NCC policy with existing RIPE community policy - ensuring that end users of PI resources cover the costs of running their share of the registry - ensuring that there is a mechanism to encourage end users to return unused ASNs to the RIPE NCC. Nick
Please note I'm only addressing the matter of ASN charges here, the merit of 2014-03 itself are probably better discussed in address-policy. On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 01:14:37PM +0000, Nick Hilliard wrote:
this isn't just about GC; it's about a lot of things, including:
- allowing the ASN assignment process to become far simpler and more transparent than it currently is
IME, as soon as money is involved, things get more complicated (at least for a LIR) and less automatable.
- creating a mechanism to help prevent hoarding of resources
A numerical or time-based limit would provide that and would be automatable.
- aligning RIPE NCC policy with existing RIPE community policy
2007-01 applies and, IIRC, it does not demand that money change hands.
- ensuring that end users of PI resources cover the costs of running their share of the registry
End Users don't have a share. They don't have a vote. No taxation without representation.
- ensuring that there is a mechanism to encourage end users to return unused ASNs to the RIPE NCC.
Is there any data on how effective the EUR50 charge for PI has been in that? I think an annual (automated) "audit" of independent resources would be better in providing this function... rgds, Sascha Luck
participants (3)
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Gert Doering -
Nick Hilliard -
Sascha Luck [ml]