RIPEdb registry need to be ready for separating?
Dear colleagues, I found some strange scheme - https://twitter.com/EvgeniiBender/status/1502709009408835589?s=20&t=PSGBvgccyYeUB03ZpDPQug If this is true, Russian LIR must be already registered in those structures. Can anyone confirm or disprove the existence of such events? -- Sergey
W dniu 14.03.2022 o 16:46, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear colleagues,
I found some strange scheme - https://twitter.com/EvgeniiBender/status/1502709009408835589?s=20&t=PSGBvgccyYeUB03ZpDPQug
If this is true, Russian LIR must be already registered in those structures.
Can anyone confirm or disprove the existence of such events?
Putin has been preparing for this for some time - they don't want to be cut off completely, because they want to attack the civilized world, but they want to control the access to keep Russians in the dark. See: "Great Firewall of China". I'm a bit uncertain about what steps should be taken... on one hand decent Russians need access to real information. On the other hand - those who are able to see the truth are already convinced and are either hiding or fleeing the country. The rest is, I am afraid, beyond any reason - they are rejecting inconvenient facts even from their own family members. AND they will be attacking "the evil west". In fact they are attacking already - from the necessity I started to block off whole Russian (and Chinese) IP blocks from my network because they were attempting brute-force attacks not from a single IP but from hundreds of IPs simultaneously - so it was evidently a coordinated action from those particular Russian and Chinese ISPs, not just individual hackers. I would want to keep Russia connected in (naive?) hope of making the truth available to Russians (via VPNs) but... cutting Russia off completely would reduce security risks. And all those ex-Russian IPv4s free again would be a bonus. Cogent has already cut its backbone connection to Russia: https://www.cnet.com/news/politics/inside-cogents-decision-to-curtail-russia... So please convince me what is the better course of action. BTW: recently if I write anything on this mailing list some Russian service providers want to set up some account for me at their cloud - it became so bothersome I had to block those domains at the mail server level. -- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
Dear colleagues, Propaganda is all around us (in all mass media from all countries, in soccial medias, etc.), we do not need to carry it here. The main task of RIPE is to maintain the allocation of resources for the functioning of the Internet in the region. The main task of the Internet is to give every user access to information. Screening, restricting, banning people's access to information (internet) will not in any way resolve the world's military conflicts, nor will it lead to peace. On the contrary, it will only deepen differences in people's thinking and boost propaganda that is not in the interests of societies around the world. I support the idea of a RIPE program for financial assistance to Ukranian LIRs badly affected by the military conflict there, but only after the preparation, voting and adoption of clearly set and regulated conditions in RIPE documents and contracts that can be used in the future similar situations. Otherwise, and hasty action, there is a risk of setting a precedent that could be used in the future by unscrupulous members. Ivaylo Josifov VarnaIX / Varteh LTD +359 52 969393 Varna, Bulgaria On Mon, 14 Mar 2022, Andrzej ?awa wrote:
W dniu 14.03.2022 o?16:46, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear colleagues,
I found some strange scheme - https://twitter.com/EvgeniiBender/status/1502709009408835589?s=20&t=PSGBvgccyYeUB03ZpDPQug
If this is true, Russian LIR must be already registered in those structures.
Can anyone confirm or disprove the existence of such events?
Putin has been preparing for this for some time - they don't want to be cut off completely, because they want to attack the civilized world, but they want to control the access to keep Russians in the dark. See: "Great Firewall of China".
I'm a bit uncertain about what steps should be taken... on one hand decent Russians need access to real information. On the other hand - those who are able to see the truth are already convinced and are either hiding or fleeing the country. The rest is, I am afraid, beyond any reason - they are rejecting inconvenient facts even from their own family members. AND they will be attacking "the evil west". In fact they are attacking already - from the necessity I started to block off whole Russian (and Chinese) IP blocks from my network because they were attempting brute-force attacks not from a single IP but from hundreds of IPs simultaneously - so it was evidently a coordinated action from those particular Russian and Chinese ISPs, not just individual hackers.
I would want to keep Russia connected in (naive?) hope of making the truth available to Russians (via VPNs) but... cutting Russia off completely would reduce security risks. And all those ex-Russian IPv4s free again would be a bonus.
Cogent has already cut its backbone connection to Russia: https://www.cnet.com/news/politics/inside-cogents-decision-to-curtail-russia...
So please convince me what is the better course of action.
BTW: recently if I write anything on this mailing list some Russian service providers want to set up some account for me at their cloud - it became so bothersome I had to block those domains at the mail server level.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzib? w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszk?w KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
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W dniu 15.03.2022 o 11:40, ivaylo pisze:
Dear colleagues,
Propaganda is all around us (in all mass media from all countries, in soccial medias, etc.), we do not need to carry it here. The main task of RIPE is to maintain the allocation of resources for the functioning of the Internet in the region.
Indeed, however Putin's plans to isolate Russia network from the rest of the world in a way similar to NK or PRC are a fact. At this point of time the measures in place are quite primitive - banning all foreign DNS servers and forcing Russian users to use Russian (government-controlled) DNS only. Something similar was, sadly, implemented in Poland in all of places supposedly to stop the internet gambling problem, but because one has only to use global DNS servers instead of local to circumvent that it is just a "security theater" (government pretending they are doing "something" to solve a "problem") - albeit a bit unnerving to be honest.
The main task of the Internet is to give every user access to information. Screening, restricting, banning people's access to information (internet) will not in any way resolve the world's military conflicts, nor will it lead to peace. On the contrary, it will only deepen differences in people's thinking and boost propaganda that is not in the interests of societies around the world.
Oh, I completely agree with that. However the problem is that the measures Putin is implementing could make that free access to information impossible in practice anyway while at the same time keeping us vulnerable to attacks by his military hackers - which can hinder or even prevent access to information and services here outside Russia too. I'm sure You've probably seen the increase of brute-force hack attacks from all over the world - and I am wondering how many of those originate from Russia (or China) and are just using overseas proxies/VPNs/clouds to mask the origin of the attack. Physically cutting Russia would stop that, obviously, but I am worried - as You are - about the cost of such a drastic measure. It is not about politics - it is about ensuring network availability. Is keeping Russia connected putting us in danger of even wider network failure? I would call it "House's leg dilemma" (if You've seen House MD you'll get what I mean) So my question is what would be the best (or least worse) course of action in that situation... I am leaning toward prioritizing maintaining free access to information, obviously, but I am also concerned about our security. Especially since I know how woefully inadequate IT support is in plenty of even big corporations due to stupid cost cutting (see: Colonial Pipeline ransomware attack; that should not have happened! even my smallest systems have separate RDIFF backup system that is inaccessible to any user and is cut off from the internet so when I had a ransomware attack few years back due to a privileged user being careless it was just a trivial issue of restoring backups from last evening - at most a day's work lost, no biggie, and as a bonus I got to dish out a lot of "I told you so" and suddenly there was money for a real antivirus packet and I was able to finally push some additional security measures). There are big professional customers who call about internet failure when in fact the cause was power failure on their site - I shudder to think how inadequate their network security might be if that is the level of their competence.
I support the idea of a RIPE program for financial assistance to Ukranian LIRs badly affected by the military conflict there, but only after the preparation, voting and adoption of clearly set and regulated conditions in RIPE documents and contracts that can be used in the future similar situations. Otherwise, and hasty action, there is a risk of setting a precedent that could be used in the future by unscrupulous members. That is true.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
Dear Andrzej, I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on? Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent. On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 8:46 PM Andrzej Ława <andrzej.lawa@dawis-it.pl> wrote:
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 11:40, ivaylo pisze:
Dear colleagues,
Propaganda is all around us (in all mass media from all countries, in soccial medias, etc.), we do not need to carry it here. The main task of RIPE is to maintain the allocation of resources for the functioning of the Internet in the region.
Indeed, however Putin's plans to isolate Russia network from the rest of the world in a way similar to NK or PRC are a fact. At this point of time the measures in place are quite primitive - banning all foreign DNS servers and forcing Russian users to use Russian (government-controlled) DNS only. Something similar was, sadly, implemented in Poland in all of places supposedly to stop the internet gambling problem, but because one has only to use global DNS servers instead of local to circumvent that it is just a "security theater" (government pretending they are doing "something" to solve a "problem") - albeit a bit unnerving to be honest.
The main task of the Internet is to give every user access to information. Screening, restricting, banning people's access to information (internet) will not in any way resolve the world's military conflicts, nor will it lead to peace. On the contrary, it will only deepen differences in people's thinking and boost propaganda that is not in the interests of societies around the world.
Oh, I completely agree with that. However the problem is that the measures Putin is implementing could make that free access to information impossible in practice anyway while at the same time keeping us vulnerable to attacks by his military hackers - which can hinder or even prevent access to information and services here outside Russia too.
I'm sure You've probably seen the increase of brute-force hack attacks from all over the world - and I am wondering how many of those originate from Russia (or China) and are just using overseas proxies/VPNs/clouds to mask the origin of the attack. Physically cutting Russia would stop that, obviously, but I am worried - as You are - about the cost of such a drastic measure.
It is not about politics - it is about ensuring network availability. Is keeping Russia connected putting us in danger of even wider network failure? I would call it "House's leg dilemma" (if You've seen House MD you'll get what I mean)
So my question is what would be the best (or least worse) course of action in that situation... I am leaning toward prioritizing maintaining free access to information, obviously, but I am also concerned about our security. Especially since I know how woefully inadequate IT support is in plenty of even big corporations due to stupid cost cutting (see: Colonial Pipeline ransomware attack; that should not have happened! even my smallest systems have separate RDIFF backup system that is inaccessible to any user and is cut off from the internet so when I had a ransomware attack few years back due to a privileged user being careless it was just a trivial issue of restoring backups from last evening - at most a day's work lost, no biggie, and as a bonus I got to dish out a lot of "I told you so" and suddenly there was money for a real antivirus packet and I was able to finally push some additional security measures). There are big professional customers who call about internet failure when in fact the cause was power failure on their site - I shudder to think how inadequate their network security might be if that is the level of their competence.
I support the idea of a RIPE program for financial assistance to Ukranian LIRs badly affected by the military conflict there, but only after the preparation, voting and adoption of clearly set and regulated conditions in RIPE documents and contracts that can be used in the future similar situations. Otherwise, and hasty action, there is a risk of setting a precedent that could be used in the future by unscrupulous members. That is true.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
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-- Sergey
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China". And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent. Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
Dear Andrzej, unfortunately, any extra word can land us... :-( Reagrds, Dmitry -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Andrzej Lawa Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 11:20 PM To: members-discuss <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] RIPEdb registry need to be ready for separating? W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China". And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent. Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/dmmenzulskiy%40beelin...
Who can put you down? What are you making up? -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Dmitriy V Menzulskiy Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 12:03 PM To: Andrzej Ława Cc: members-discuss Subject: Re: [members-discuss] RIPEdb registry need to be ready for separating? Dear Andrzej, unfortunately, any extra word can land us... :-( Reagrds, Dmitry -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Andrzej Lawa Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 11:20 PM To: members-discuss <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] RIPEdb registry need to be ready for separating? W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China". And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent. Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/dmmenzulskiy%40beelin... _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/vgorelik%40wiland.ru
No, we are not making anything up. As you probably are aware. Also: could you please explain what did you mean by "Who can put you down?" - maybe you are not aware of that but (especially in that context) it sounds like that infamous "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" W dniu 16.03.2022 o 11:27, Горелик Владимир pisze:
Who can put you down? What are you making up?
-----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Dmitriy V Menzulskiy Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 12:03 PM To: Andrzej Ława Cc: members-discuss Subject: Re: [members-discuss] RIPEdb registry need to be ready for separating?
Dear Andrzej,
unfortunately, any extra word can land us... :-(
Reagrds,
Dmitry
-----Original Message----- From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Andrzej Lawa Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 11:20 PM To: members-discuss <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] RIPEdb registry need to be ready for separating?
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent. Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
That is the scheme - is true, exists and implemented. Silence speaks volumes in this case. On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 12:22 PM Dmitriy V Menzulskiy <DmMenzulskiy@beeline.ru> wrote:
Dear Andrzej,
unfortunately, any extra word can land us... :-(
Reagrds,
Dmitry
-----Original Message----- From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Andrzej Lawa Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 11:20 PM To: members-discuss <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] RIPEdb registry need to be ready for separating?
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent. Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
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-- Sergey
Dear Andrzej, Looks like Russia created its own NIR. Against all policies, as RIPE as global. It was not clear whether this was discussed and agreed with RIPE as RIR. On scheme I saw a broken link to RIPEdb after release. What will be for all other members of all other RIR? Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry? DNS and "The Great Russian Fire Wall" - these next questions, but not so critically important, to my mind. On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:45 AM Andrzej Ława <andrzej.lawa@dawis-it.pl> wrote:
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent. Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
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-- Sergey
Dear Athina, Please take a look here. In my opinion, no one fully understands how it can end for the entire community by implementing such a project. On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:53 PM Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Andrzej,
Looks like Russia created its own NIR. Against all policies, as RIPE as global. It was not clear whether this was discussed and agreed with RIPE as RIR. On scheme I saw a broken link to RIPEdb after release. What will be for all other members of all other RIR? Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
DNS and "The Great Russian Fire Wall" - these next questions, but not so critically important, to my mind.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:45 AM Andrzej Ława <andrzej.lawa@dawis-it.pl> wrote:
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent. Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
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-- Sergey
-- Sergey
Dear Serg, all, I would like to give some background on this matter and describe the RIPE NCC’s view. We have been closely following legal developments with respect to Russian Internet regulation and provided updates in the past: https://labs.ripe.net/author/maxim_burtikov/russia-regulatory-update/ <https://labs.ripe.net/author/maxim_burtikov/russia-regulatory-update/> The creation of a local database of all Internet resources was part of the Russian Sovereign Internet Bill. According to Russian government officials, this was an effort to establish the security and resilience of a “Russian segment of Internet”. In February 2021, the RIPE NCC had a discussion with the organisation responsible for implementing the database to learn about the technical details. They told us that their database would have the same data as the RIPE Database and it was only intended as a back-up. They also stated that the RIPE Database would remain the primary source of data. Please note that while we sought to understand the details, the RIPE NCC did not contribute to this work in any way. It is also worth noting that other governments in our service region also maintain similar databases, whether as back-ups or for other purposes. The RIPE NCC has always understood that governments will want to ensure diligent administration within their territories. We have sought to offer technical knowledge so that these efforts do not have a negative impact on Internet stability. Our position on this matter has been firm: The RIPE Database and the other RIR databases remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources. It is critical for Internet stability that any databases maintained by governments are consistent with the RIPE Database. Inconsistencies between these various databases and the RIPE Database may have severe consequences for the uniqueness of Internet number resources, which is fundamental for the global Internet. Having said that, it is true that regulatory developments over the past decade include deliberate efforts to protect or otherwise affect the local Internet infrastructure, and these have the potential to impact our operations even as unintended consequence or side effect. This concern has been highlighted on multiple occasions at RIPE Meetings and in the RIPE Labs article “Caught in the Middle: Regulatory Impact and our Mission as the RIPE NCC”: https://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/caught-in-the-middle-regulatory-impact-a... <https://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/caught-in-the-middle-regulatory-impact-and-our-mission-as-the-ripe-ncc/> In this article we explained that national or international legislation has already started to interfere with our ability to provide the same services to all RIPE NCC members on an equal basis, and this has the potential to impact the operation of the global Internet and might ultimately lead to fragmentation of the Internet. As we work to mitigate potential threats to our ability to provide services to our members or to the operations of the Internet, we will keep the following principles in mind: • The wider Internet governance system is essential to the stability of the global Internet and should not be undermined • The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources • All networks must be able to access Internet resources and related services on an equal basis, regardless of geography We will share more information about this work with the membership and the community in due course. Kind Regards, Athina Fragkouli Chief Legal Officer RIPE NCC
On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:10, Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Athina,
Please take a look here. In my opinion, no one fully understands how it can end for the entire community by implementing such a project.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:53 PM Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com <mailto:greysticky@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Andrzej,
Looks like Russia created its own NIR. Against all policies, as RIPE as global. It was not clear whether this was discussed and agreed with RIPE as RIR. On scheme I saw a broken link to RIPEdb after release. What will be for all other members of all other RIR? Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
DNS and "The Great Russian Fire Wall" - these next questions, but not so critically important, to my mind.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:45 AM Andrzej Ława <andrzej.lawa@dawis-it.pl> wrote:
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent. Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/greysticky%40gmail.co...
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
Dear Athina, I have read your reply with great interest. You have done a great job with an impressive result. However, I will allow myself to repeat some of the questions that I am sure the entire community is interested in, and which have not been answered. And so: a) You said "The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources", when and if russian register with self isolated, will RIPEdb will be authoritative source? b) Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry? c) What action RIPE NCC will do when and if the Russian national register will self isolate from RIPEdb, as they plan. Based on some of their sovereign bills, of course? And finally, I didn't have this question before, but you said "They told us that their database will have the same data as the RIPE database and it's just for backup" and I want to ask - do you believe them? After the statements of the Russians "we are not going to attack anyone," can they still be trusted now? On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:48 PM Athina Fragkouli <afragkou@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, all,
I would like to give some background on this matter and describe the RIPE NCC’s view.
We have been closely following legal developments with respect to Russian Internet regulation and provided updates in the past: https://labs.ripe.net/author/maxim_burtikov/russia-regulatory-update/
The creation of a local database of all Internet resources was part of the Russian Sovereign Internet Bill. According to Russian government officials, this was an effort to establish the security and resilience of a “Russian segment of Internet”.
In February 2021, the RIPE NCC had a discussion with the organisation responsible for implementing the database to learn about the technical details. They told us that their database would have the same data as the RIPE Database and it was only intended as a back-up. They also stated that the RIPE Database would remain the primary source of data. Please note that while we sought to understand the details, the RIPE NCC did not contribute to this work in any way.
It is also worth noting that other governments in our service region also maintain similar databases, whether as back-ups or for other purposes. The RIPE NCC has always understood that governments will want to ensure diligent administration within their territories. We have sought to offer technical knowledge so that these efforts do not have a negative impact on Internet stability.
Our position on this matter has been firm:
The RIPE Database and the other RIR databases remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources. It is critical for Internet stability that any databases maintained by governments are consistent with the RIPE Database. Inconsistencies between these various databases and the RIPE Database may have severe consequences for the uniqueness of Internet number resources, which is fundamental for the global Internet.
Having said that, it is true that regulatory developments over the past decade include deliberate efforts to protect or otherwise affect the local Internet infrastructure, and these have the potential to impact our operations even as unintended consequence or side effect.
This concern has been highlighted on multiple occasions at RIPE Meetings and in the RIPE Labs article “Caught in the Middle: Regulatory Impact and our Mission as the RIPE NCC”: https://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/caught-in-the-middle-regulatory-impact-a... In this article we explained that national or international legislation has already started to interfere with our ability to provide the same services to all RIPE NCC members on an equal basis, and this has the potential to impact the operation of the global Internet and might ultimately lead to fragmentation of the Internet.
As we work to mitigate potential threats to our ability to provide services to our members or to the operations of the Internet, we will keep the following principles in mind:
• The wider Internet governance system is essential to the stability of the global Internet and should not be undermined • The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources • All networks must be able to access Internet resources and related services on an equal basis, regardless of geography
We will share more information about this work with the membership and the community in due course.
Kind Regards,
Athina Fragkouli Chief Legal Officer RIPE NCC
On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:10, Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Athina,
Please take a look here. In my opinion, no one fully understands how it can end for the entire community by implementing such a project.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:53 PM Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Andrzej,
Looks like Russia created its own NIR. Against all policies, as RIPE as global. It was not clear whether this was discussed and agreed with RIPE as RIR. On scheme I saw a broken link to RIPEdb after release. What will be for all other members of all other RIR? Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
DNS and "The Great Russian Fire Wall" - these next questions, but not so critically important, to my mind.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:45 AM Andrzej Ława <andrzej.lawa@dawis-it.pl> wrote:
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent.
Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszków KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/greysticky%40gmail.co...
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
Dear Serg, Dear colleagues I do not know exactly what are the purpose of your questions and fears, but from a technical point of view (for the functioning of the Internet in the region) they are unfounded. The Internet is a global structure with limited resources. To function this structure, resources _MUST_ be fairly allocated and have a clear and accurate register in which to describe them. This is taken care of by the IANA organization. It delegates the relevant resources based on the requests and needs to the respective RIRs (Regional Internet Registries - RIPE NCC, APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC, AFRINIC). They, in turn, delegate to local Internet registers - LIRs (we). And LIRs delegate resources to the end users. Each LIR is obliged to create and maintain up-to-date records for the resources under its control. And the LIR's records are kept in the database of the respective RIR. RIRs are required to provide publicly, freely, up-to-date and accurate information on all records in their database so that all Internet participants (routers) can verify that the relevant resources are used by the entity to which they are delegated. Everyone in the Internet can create their own database of records for Internet resources, the question is whether other participants in the Internet will believe and comply with his data. Every country in the world (in theory) can pass a law or laws that regulate an industry. If the Russian state decides to make its own register, and obliges all operators operating on its territory, OK, it would affect the Internet connectivity in the territory of the Russian Federation (if their DB is out of sync with the rest of the world ). Everyone else in the world will continue to use and trust RIRs databases. Below I answer your questions from technical point of view... Ivaylo Josifov VarnaIX / Varteh LTD Varna, Bulgaria On Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Serg Galat wrote:
Dear Athina,
I have read your reply with great interest. You have done a great job with an impressive result. However, I will allow myself to repeat some of the questions that I am sure the entire community is interested in, and which have not been answered. And so: a) You said "The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources", when and if russian register with self isolated, will RIPEdb will be authoritative source?
Of course IANA and RIRs DB was,are and always will be authoritative sources.
b) Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
RIPE db was,is,and will be valid except cases when there are technical problems.
c) What action RIPE NCC will do when and if the Russian national register will self isolate from RIPEdb, as they plan. Based on some of their sovereign bills, of course?
Nothing.
And finally, I didn't have this question before, but you said "They told us that their database will have the same data as the RIPE database and it's just for backup" and I want to ask - do you believe them? After the statements of the Russians "we are not going to attack anyone," can they still be trusted now?
As I explained on top, they can do whatever they want with their copy of the db, we do not need to trust anyone else except IANA and RIRs. I do not understand your fear here.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:48 PM Athina Fragkouli <afragkou@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, all,
I would like to give some background on this matter and describe the RIPE NCC?s view.
We have been closely following legal developments with respect to Russian Internet regulation and provided updates in the past: https://labs.ripe.net/author/maxim_burtikov/russia-regulatory-update/
The creation of a local database of all Internet resources was part of the Russian Sovereign Internet Bill. According to Russian government officials, this was an effort to establish the security and resilience of a ?Russian segment of Internet?.
In February 2021, the RIPE NCC had a discussion with the organisation responsible for implementing the database to learn about the technical details. They told us that their database would have the same data as the RIPE Database and it was only intended as a back-up. They also stated that the RIPE Database would remain the primary source of data. Please note that while we sought to understand the details, the RIPE NCC did not contribute to this work in any way.
It is also worth noting that other governments in our service region also maintain similar databases, whether as back-ups or for other purposes. The RIPE NCC has always understood that governments will want to ensure diligent administration within their territories. We have sought to offer technical knowledge so that these efforts do not have a negative impact on Internet stability.
Our position on this matter has been firm:
The RIPE Database and the other RIR databases remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources. It is critical for Internet stability that any databases maintained by governments are consistent with the RIPE Database. Inconsistencies between these various databases and the RIPE Database may have severe consequences for the uniqueness of Internet number resources, which is fundamental for the global Internet.
Having said that, it is true that regulatory developments over the past decade include deliberate efforts to protect or otherwise affect the local Internet infrastructure, and these have the potential to impact our operations even as unintended consequence or side effect.
This concern has been highlighted on multiple occasions at RIPE Meetings and in the RIPE Labs article ?Caught in the Middle: Regulatory Impact and our Mission as the RIPE NCC?: https://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/caught-in-the-middle-regulatory-impact-a... In this article we explained that national or international legislation has already started to interfere with our ability to provide the same services to all RIPE NCC members on an equal basis, and this has the potential to impact the operation of the global Internet and might ultimately lead to fragmentation of the Internet.
As we work to mitigate potential threats to our ability to provide services to our members or to the operations of the Internet, we will keep the following principles in mind:
? The wider Internet governance system is essential to the stability of the global Internet and should not be undermined ? The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources ? All networks must be able to access Internet resources and related services on an equal basis, regardless of geography
We will share more information about this work with the membership and the community in due course.
Kind Regards,
Athina Fragkouli Chief Legal Officer RIPE NCC
On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:10, Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Athina,
Please take a look here. In my opinion, no one fully understands how it can end for the entire community by implementing such a project.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:53 PM Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Andrzej,
Looks like Russia created its own NIR. Against all policies, as RIPE as global. It was not clear whether this was discussed and agreed with RIPE as RIR. On scheme I saw a broken link to RIPEdb after release. What will be for all other members of all other RIR? Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
DNS and "The Great Russian Fire Wall" - these next questions, but not so critically important, to my mind.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:45 AM Andrzej ?awa <andrzej.lawa@dawis-it.pl> wrote:
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent.
Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzib? w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszk?w KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/greysticky%40gmail.co...
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ivaylo%40bglans.net
Dear colleague, Thank you for your opinion. I'm understand you opinion - everything working right until everyone is do everything right. What I fear? I'm wrote about a little before "Have you understood what was written on the plan-scheme? I let myself to translate records on bottom - "Российские локальные регистратуры должны будут отключиться от международного реестра и переключиться на российский" Russian local registries (LIRs) will have to disconnect from the international registry and switch to the Russian. Are you understand what this means for RIPE/EU community?" Those. Russian LIRs stop registering and updating their data in the registry? So, what is next? And I'm not at all interested in what they will do in their national registry. And in what form they will use one. But I'm concerned about the validity of the data in RIPEdb. On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 5:21 PM ivaylo <ivaylo@bglans.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, Dear colleagues
I do not know exactly what are the purpose of your questions and fears, but from a technical point of view (for the functioning of the Internet in the region) they are unfounded.
The Internet is a global structure with limited resources. To function this structure, resources _MUST_ be fairly allocated and have a clear and accurate register in which to describe them. This is taken care of by the IANA organization. It delegates the relevant resources based on the requests and needs to the respective RIRs (Regional Internet Registries - RIPE NCC, APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC, AFRINIC). They, in turn, delegate to local Internet registers - LIRs (we). And LIRs delegate resources to the end users. Each LIR is obliged to create and maintain up-to-date records for the resources under its control. And the LIR's records are kept in the database of the respective RIR.
RIRs are required to provide publicly, freely, up-to-date and accurate information on all records in their database so that all Internet participants (routers) can verify that the relevant resources are used by the entity to which they are delegated.
Everyone in the Internet can create their own database of records for Internet resources, the question is whether other participants in the Internet will believe and comply with his data. Every country in the world (in theory) can pass a law or laws that regulate an industry. If the Russian state decides to make its own register, and obliges all operators operating on its territory, OK, it would affect the Internet connectivity in the territory of the Russian Federation (if their DB is out of sync with the rest of the world ). Everyone else in the world will continue to use and trust RIRs databases.
Below I answer your questions from technical point of view...
Ivaylo Josifov VarnaIX / Varteh LTD Varna, Bulgaria
On Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Serg Galat wrote:
Dear Athina,
I have read your reply with great interest. You have done a great job with an impressive result. However, I will allow myself to repeat some of the questions that I am sure the entire community is interested in, and which have not been answered. And so: a) You said "The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources", when and if russian register with self isolated, will RIPEdb will be authoritative source?
Of course IANA and RIRs DB was,are and always will be authoritative sources.
b) Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
RIPE db was,is,and will be valid except cases when there are technical problems.
c) What action RIPE NCC will do when and if the Russian national register will self isolate from RIPEdb, as they plan. Based on some of their sovereign bills, of course?
Nothing.
And finally, I didn't have this question before, but you said "They told us that their database will have the same data as the RIPE database and it's just for backup" and I want to ask - do you believe them? After the statements of the Russians "we are not going to attack anyone," can they still be trusted now?
As I explained on top, they can do whatever they want with their copy of the db, we do not need to trust anyone else except IANA and RIRs. I do not understand your fear here.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:48 PM Athina Fragkouli <afragkou@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, all,
I would like to give some background on this matter and describe the RIPE NCC?s view.
We have been closely following legal developments with respect to Russian Internet regulation and provided updates in the past: https://labs.ripe.net/author/maxim_burtikov/russia-regulatory-update/
The creation of a local database of all Internet resources was part of the Russian Sovereign Internet Bill. According to Russian government officials, this was an effort to establish the security and resilience of a ?Russian segment of Internet?.
In February 2021, the RIPE NCC had a discussion with the organisation responsible for implementing the database to learn about the technical details. They told us that their database would have the same data as the RIPE Database and it was only intended as a back-up. They also stated that the RIPE Database would remain the primary source of data. Please note that while we sought to understand the details, the RIPE NCC did not contribute to this work in any way.
It is also worth noting that other governments in our service region also maintain similar databases, whether as back-ups or for other purposes. The RIPE NCC has always understood that governments will want to ensure diligent administration within their territories. We have sought to offer technical knowledge so that these efforts do not have a negative impact on Internet stability.
Our position on this matter has been firm:
The RIPE Database and the other RIR databases remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources. It is critical for Internet stability that any databases maintained by governments are consistent with the RIPE Database. Inconsistencies between these various databases and the RIPE Database may have severe consequences for the uniqueness of Internet number resources, which is fundamental for the global Internet.
Having said that, it is true that regulatory developments over the past decade include deliberate efforts to protect or otherwise affect the local Internet infrastructure, and these have the potential to impact our operations even as unintended consequence or side effect.
This concern has been highlighted on multiple occasions at RIPE Meetings and in the RIPE Labs article ?Caught in the Middle: Regulatory Impact and our Mission as the RIPE NCC?: https://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/caught-in-the-middle-regulatory-impact-a... In this article we explained that national or international legislation has already started to interfere with our ability to provide the same services to all RIPE NCC members on an equal basis, and this has the potential to impact the operation of the global Internet and might ultimately lead to fragmentation of the Internet.
As we work to mitigate potential threats to our ability to provide services to our members or to the operations of the Internet, we will keep the following principles in mind:
? The wider Internet governance system is essential to the stability of the global Internet and should not be undermined ? The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources ? All networks must be able to access Internet resources and related services on an equal basis, regardless of geography
We will share more information about this work with the membership and the community in due course.
Kind Regards,
Athina Fragkouli Chief Legal Officer RIPE NCC
On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:10, Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Athina,
Please take a look here. In my opinion, no one fully understands how it can end for the entire community by implementing such a project.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:53 PM Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Andrzej,
Looks like Russia created its own NIR. Against all policies, as RIPE as global. It was not clear whether this was discussed and agreed with RIPE as RIR. On scheme I saw a broken link to RIPEdb after release. What will be for all other members of all other RIR? Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
DNS and "The Great Russian Fire Wall" - these next questions, but not so critically important, to my mind.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:45 AM Andrzej ?awa <andrzej.lawa@dawis-it.pl> wrote:
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent.
Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzib? w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszk?w KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/greysticky%40gmail.co...
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ivaylo%40bglans.net
-- Sergey
Hello Serg, That's do not change anything for us, only internet in Russian Federation will be affected. All internet routing in the rest of the world is based on the trust of five RIRs DBs. We trust RIPE NCC, APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC, AFRINIC data bases, and we do not care in what will trust Russians ISP's routers. If somebody or some company, no matter what nationality it is, do not maintain and update properly their records (for example roa) in the RIRs DBs the internet routers will automaticly drop the connectivity to them. In the end that person or company that do not trust to authority DBs will not be connected to the global Internet, but in some kind of local Intranet, thats all. I guess they do that because will be much easier for russians ISPs to apply their government regulations and filter/block part of the internet (for example the connection - russian users -> facebook). Even in some cases where security is priority, invalid data is intentionally created in RIR databases. If you are concerned about the IRR, and now there are tons of invalid ones, especially in the ARIN database. From my almost 35 years of technical experience in the IT sector, I can assure you that the global Internet will not be affected by the decision that Russia will use its own "caching" registry. It could only affect Internet services and users inside the Russian Federation. I am not a lawyer, and from a legal point of view I could not say whether the use of such a "caching" register by any country/company/person is in breach of any of the clauses of the contracts between RIPE and LIRs, but I think it is unlikely.
Those. Russian LIRs stop registering and updating their data in the registry? So, what is next?
Nothing for us, they will lost connectivity to the global network (transiting carriers + IXPs will filter their BGP announces).
And I'm not at all interested in what they will do in their national registry. And in what form they will use one. But I'm concerned about the validity of the data in RIPEdb.
And you think all information in all five RIRs DBs are (or at least was sometime) 100% valid ? Right now more than 1/4 from the global routing information in RIRs DBs is invalid. Imagine what is the state of the other much less important information in these databases. If your worries are due to some technical aspect of the operation of the global network in RIPE region, please be more specific and share exactly what your concerns are. Ivaylo Josifov VarnaIX / Varteh LTD Varna, Bulgaria On Tue, 22 Mar 2022, Serg Galat wrote:
Dear colleague, Thank you for your opinion. I'm understand you opinion - everything working right until everyone is do everything right. What I fear? I'm wrote about a little before
"Have you understood what was written on the plan-scheme? I let myself to translate records on bottom - "?????????? ????????? ???????????? ?????? ????? ??????????? ?? ?????????????? ??????? ? ????????????? ?? ??????????" Russian local registries (LIRs) will have to disconnect from the international registry and switch to the Russian. Are you understand what this means for RIPE/EU community?"
Those. Russian LIRs stop registering and updating their data in the registry? So, what is next? And I'm not at all interested in what they will do in their national registry. And in what form they will use one. But I'm concerned about the validity of the data in RIPEdb.
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 5:21 PM ivaylo <ivaylo@bglans.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, Dear colleagues
I do not know exactly what are the purpose of your questions and fears, but from a technical point of view (for the functioning of the Internet in the region) they are unfounded.
The Internet is a global structure with limited resources. To function this structure, resources _MUST_ be fairly allocated and have a clear and accurate register in which to describe them. This is taken care of by the IANA organization. It delegates the relevant resources based on the requests and needs to the respective RIRs (Regional Internet Registries - RIPE NCC, APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC, AFRINIC). They, in turn, delegate to local Internet registers - LIRs (we). And LIRs delegate resources to the end users. Each LIR is obliged to create and maintain up-to-date records for the resources under its control. And the LIR's records are kept in the database of the respective RIR.
RIRs are required to provide publicly, freely, up-to-date and accurate information on all records in their database so that all Internet participants (routers) can verify that the relevant resources are used by the entity to which they are delegated.
Everyone in the Internet can create their own database of records for Internet resources, the question is whether other participants in the Internet will believe and comply with his data. Every country in the world (in theory) can pass a law or laws that regulate an industry. If the Russian state decides to make its own register, and obliges all operators operating on its territory, OK, it would affect the Internet connectivity in the territory of the Russian Federation (if their DB is out of sync with the rest of the world ). Everyone else in the world will continue to use and trust RIRs databases.
Below I answer your questions from technical point of view...
Ivaylo Josifov VarnaIX / Varteh LTD Varna, Bulgaria
On Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Serg Galat wrote:
Dear Athina,
I have read your reply with great interest. You have done a great job with an impressive result. However, I will allow myself to repeat some of the questions that I am sure the entire community is interested in, and which have not been answered. And so: a) You said "The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources", when and if russian register with self isolated, will RIPEdb will be authoritative source?
Of course IANA and RIRs DB was,are and always will be authoritative sources.
b) Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
RIPE db was,is,and will be valid except cases when there are technical problems.
c) What action RIPE NCC will do when and if the Russian national register will self isolate from RIPEdb, as they plan. Based on some of their sovereign bills, of course?
Nothing.
And finally, I didn't have this question before, but you said "They told us that their database will have the same data as the RIPE database and it's just for backup" and I want to ask - do you believe them? After the statements of the Russians "we are not going to attack anyone," can they still be trusted now?
As I explained on top, they can do whatever they want with their copy of the db, we do not need to trust anyone else except IANA and RIRs. I do not understand your fear here.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:48 PM Athina Fragkouli <afragkou@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, all,
I would like to give some background on this matter and describe the RIPE NCC?s view.
We have been closely following legal developments with respect to Russian Internet regulation and provided updates in the past: https://labs.ripe.net/author/maxim_burtikov/russia-regulatory-update/
The creation of a local database of all Internet resources was part of the Russian Sovereign Internet Bill. According to Russian government officials, this was an effort to establish the security and resilience of a ?Russian segment of Internet?.
In February 2021, the RIPE NCC had a discussion with the organisation responsible for implementing the database to learn about the technical details. They told us that their database would have the same data as the RIPE Database and it was only intended as a back-up. They also stated that the RIPE Database would remain the primary source of data. Please note that while we sought to understand the details, the RIPE NCC did not contribute to this work in any way.
It is also worth noting that other governments in our service region also maintain similar databases, whether as back-ups or for other purposes. The RIPE NCC has always understood that governments will want to ensure diligent administration within their territories. We have sought to offer technical knowledge so that these efforts do not have a negative impact on Internet stability.
Our position on this matter has been firm:
The RIPE Database and the other RIR databases remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources. It is critical for Internet stability that any databases maintained by governments are consistent with the RIPE Database. Inconsistencies between these various databases and the RIPE Database may have severe consequences for the uniqueness of Internet number resources, which is fundamental for the global Internet.
Having said that, it is true that regulatory developments over the past decade include deliberate efforts to protect or otherwise affect the local Internet infrastructure, and these have the potential to impact our operations even as unintended consequence or side effect.
This concern has been highlighted on multiple occasions at RIPE Meetings and in the RIPE Labs article ?Caught in the Middle: Regulatory Impact and our Mission as the RIPE NCC?: https://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/caught-in-the-middle-regulatory-impact-a... In this article we explained that national or international legislation has already started to interfere with our ability to provide the same services to all RIPE NCC members on an equal basis, and this has the potential to impact the operation of the global Internet and might ultimately lead to fragmentation of the Internet.
As we work to mitigate potential threats to our ability to provide services to our members or to the operations of the Internet, we will keep the following principles in mind:
? The wider Internet governance system is essential to the stability of the global Internet and should not be undermined ? The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources ? All networks must be able to access Internet resources and related services on an equal basis, regardless of geography
We will share more information about this work with the membership and the community in due course.
Kind Regards,
Athina Fragkouli Chief Legal Officer RIPE NCC
On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:10, Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Athina,
Please take a look here. In my opinion, no one fully understands how it can end for the entire community by implementing such a project.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:53 PM Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Andrzej,
Looks like Russia created its own NIR. Against all policies, as RIPE as global. It was not clear whether this was discussed and agreed with RIPE as RIR. On scheme I saw a broken link to RIPEdb after release. What will be for all other members of all other RIR? Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
DNS and "The Great Russian Fire Wall" - these next questions, but not so critically important, to my mind.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:45 AM Andrzej ?awa <andrzej.lawa@dawis-it.pl> wrote:
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent.
Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzib? w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszk?w KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/greysticky%40gmail.co...
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
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-- Sergey
Dear Serg First, are we seriously discussing topic based on tweet of some random anonymous person??? All this flood based just on that? Please provide more credible and informative source. Second, i don't think it worth discussion, because only several options are possible: 1)They can make their copy of registry, with more extended data and LIR will maintain their records in RIPE according RIPE rules. Outcome: Thats doesnt change anything for rest of world. Russian operators will have more paperwork 2)They cut LIR from managing resources, and some russian government agency will act as proxy. Outcome: Some headache for RIPE, but for rest of the world data will be consistent, again. 3)They will make their own IP space and live in their own bubble. Outcome: Nobody will peer with Russia as before, likely it will be some sort of NAT to go in/out "Russian intranet". The only colossal harm to connectivity can be caused by those whose emotional voices are heard here more and more often and who are pushing RIPE to violate the neutrality, with their "ideas" to disconnect someone or take away their addresses. This will end up with regional RIRs losing trust, ceasing to exist and each state will be managing its own address space. In my opinion, this will be the end of the Internet as we know it. On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 19:55 EET, Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote: Dear colleague, Thank you for your opinion. I'm understand you opinion - everything working right until everyone is do everything right. What I fear? I'm wrote about a little before "Have you understood what was written on the plan-scheme? I let myself to translate records on bottom - "Российские локальные регистратуры должны будут отключиться от международного реестра и переключиться на российский" Russian local registries (LIRs) will have to disconnect from the international registry and switch to the Russian. Are you understand what this means for RIPE/EU community?" Those. Russian LIRs stop registering and updating their data in the registry? So, what is next? And I'm not at all interested in what they will do in their national registry. And in what form they will use one. But I'm concerned about the validity of the data in RIPEdb. On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 5:21 PM ivaylo <ivaylo@bglans.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, Dear colleagues
I do not know exactly what are the purpose of your questions and fears, but from a technical point of view (for the functioning of the Internet in the region) they are unfounded.
The Internet is a global structure with limited resources. To function this structure, resources _MUST_ be fairly allocated and have a clear and accurate register in which to describe them. This is taken care of by the IANA organization. It delegates the relevant resources based on the requests and needs to the respective RIRs (Regional Internet Registries - RIPE NCC, APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC, AFRINIC). They, in turn, delegate to local Internet registers - LIRs (we). And LIRs delegate resources to the end users. Each LIR is obliged to create and maintain up-to-date records for the resources under its control. And the LIR's records are kept in the database of the respective RIR.
RIRs are required to provide publicly, freely, up-to-date and accurate information on all records in their database so that all Internet participants (routers) can verify that the relevant resources are used by the entity to which they are delegated.
Everyone in the Internet can create their own database of records for Internet resources, the question is whether other participants in the Internet will believe and comply with his data. Every country in the world (in theory) can pass a law or laws that regulate an industry. If the Russian state decides to make its own register, and obliges all operators operating on its territory, OK, it would affect the Internet connectivity in the territory of the Russian Federation (if their DB is out of sync with the rest of the world ). Everyone else in the world will continue to use and trust RIRs databases.
Below I answer your questions from technical point of view...
Ivaylo Josifov VarnaIX / Varteh LTD Varna, Bulgaria
On Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Serg Galat wrote:
Dear Athina,
I have read your reply with great interest. You have done a great job with an impressive result. However, I will allow myself to repeat some of the questions that I am sure the entire community is interested in, and which have not been answered. And so: a) You said "The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources", when and if russian register with self isolated, will RIPEdb will be authoritative source?
Of course IANA and RIRs DB was,are and always will be authoritative sources.
b) Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
RIPE db was,is,and will be valid except cases when there are technical problems.
c) What action RIPE NCC will do when and if the Russian national register will self isolate from RIPEdb, as they plan. Based on some of their sovereign bills, of course?
Nothing.
And finally, I didn't have this question before, but you said "They told us that their database will have the same data as the RIPE database and it's just for backup" and I want to ask - do you believe them? After the statements of the Russians "we are not going to attack anyone," can they still be trusted now?
As I explained on top, they can do whatever they want with their copy of the db, we do not need to trust anyone else except IANA and RIRs. I do not understand your fear here.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:48 PM Athina Fragkouli <afragkou@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, all,
I would like to give some background on this matter and describe the RIPE NCC?s view.
We have been closely following legal developments with respect to Russian Internet regulation and provided updates in the past: https://labs.ripe.net/author/maxim_burtikov/russia-regulatory-update/
The creation of a local database of all Internet resources was part of the Russian Sovereign Internet Bill. According to Russian government officials, this was an effort to establish the security and resilience of a ?Russian segment of Internet?.
In February 2021, the RIPE NCC had a discussion with the organisation responsible for implementing the database to learn about the technical details. They told us that their database would have the same data as the RIPE Database and it was only intended as a back-up. They also stated that the RIPE Database would remain the primary source of data. Please note that while we sought to understand the details, the RIPE NCC did not contribute to this work in any way.
It is also worth noting that other governments in our service region also maintain similar databases, whether as back-ups or for other purposes. The RIPE NCC has always understood that governments will want to ensure diligent administration within their territories. We have sought to offer technical knowledge so that these efforts do not have a negative impact on Internet stability.
Our position on this matter has been firm:
The RIPE Database and the other RIR databases remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources. It is critical for Internet stability that any databases maintained by governments are consistent with the RIPE Database. Inconsistencies between these various databases and the RIPE Database may have severe consequences for the uniqueness of Internet number resources, which is fundamental for the global Internet.
Having said that, it is true that regulatory developments over the past decade include deliberate efforts to protect or otherwise affect the local Internet infrastructure, and these have the potential to impact our operations even as unintended consequence or side effect.
This concern has been highlighted on multiple occasions at RIPE Meetings and in the RIPE Labs article ?Caught in the Middle: Regulatory Impact and our Mission as the RIPE NCC?: https://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/caught-in-the-middle-regulatory-impact-a... In this article we explained that national or international legislation has already started to interfere with our ability to provide the same services to all RIPE NCC members on an equal basis, and this has the potential to impact the operation of the global Internet and might ultimately lead to fragmentation of the Internet.
As we work to mitigate potential threats to our ability to provide services to our members or to the operations of the Internet, we will keep the following principles in mind:
? The wider Internet governance system is essential to the stability of the global Internet and should not be undermined ? The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources ? All networks must be able to access Internet resources and related services on an equal basis, regardless of geography
We will share more information about this work with the membership and the community in due course.
Kind Regards,
Athina Fragkouli Chief Legal Officer RIPE NCC
On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:10, Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Athina,
Please take a look here. In my opinion, no one fully understands how it can end for the entire community by implementing such a project.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:53 PM Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Andrzej,
Looks like Russia created its own NIR. Against all policies, as RIPE as global. It was not clear whether this was discussed and agreed with RIPE as RIR. On scheme I saw a broken link to RIPEdb after release. What will be for all other members of all other RIR? Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
DNS and "The Great Russian Fire Wall" - these next questions, but not so critically important, to my mind.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:45 AM Andrzej ?awa <andrzej.lawa@dawis-it.pl> wrote:
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent.
Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzib? w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszk?w KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/greysticky%40gmail.co...
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ivaylo%40bglans.net
-- Sergey _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/nuclearcat%40nuclearc...
On 23 Mar 2022, at 15:32, Denys Fedoryshchenko <nuclearcat@nuclearcat.com> wrote:
Dear Serg
First, are we seriously discussing topic based on tweet of some random anonymous person??? All this flood based just on that? Please provide more credible and informative source.
All as usual, someone unknown opening a Polichenell's Secret. Is this enough credible and informative source? https://labs.ripe.net/author/alexander-isavnin/the-russian-sovereign-interne...
Second, i don't think it worth discussion, because only several options are possible: 1)They can make their copy of registry, with more extended data and LIR will maintain their records in RIPE according RIPE rules. Outcome: Thats doesnt change anything for rest of world. Russian operators will have more paperwork 2)They cut LIR from managing resources, and some russian government agency will act as proxy. Outcome: Some headache for RIPE, but for rest of the world data will be consistent, again. 3)They will make their own IP space and live in their own bubble. Outcome: Nobody will peer with Russia as before, likely it will be some sort of NAT to go in/out "Russian intranet".
The first and third are the problem only of Russian LIPs. But my concerns are about the second. How and who validate this data? Russian government? Ok. Will you sure that some IP address and ASn is from some Siberian ISP and not FSB?
The only colossal harm to connectivity can be caused by those whose emotional voices are heard here more and more often and who are pushing RIPE to violate the neutrality, with their "ideas" to disconnect someone or take away their addresses. This will end up with regional RIRs losing trust, ceasing to exist and each state will be managing its own address space. In my opinion, this will be the end of the Internet as we know it.
Are you hear this from me? Then why did you say me about? My question is - what will we need to do when this happens? We - I mean internet community. And RIPE NCC in particular.
On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 19:55 EET, Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear colleague, Thank you for your opinion. I'm understand you opinion - everything working right until everyone is do everything right. What I fear? I'm wrote about a little before
"Have you understood what was written on the plan-scheme? I let myself to translate records on bottom - "Российские локальные регистратуры должны будут отключиться от международного реестра и переключиться на российский" Russian local registries (LIRs) will have to disconnect from the international registry and switch to the Russian. Are you understand what this means for RIPE/EU community?"
Those. Russian LIRs stop registering and updating their data in the registry? So, what is next? And I'm not at all interested in what they will do in their national registry. And in what form they will use one. But I'm concerned about the validity of the data in RIPEdb.
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 5:21 PM ivaylo <ivaylo@bglans.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, Dear colleagues
I do not know exactly what are the purpose of your questions and fears, but from a technical point of view (for the functioning of the Internet in the region) they are unfounded.
The Internet is a global structure with limited resources. To function this structure, resources _MUST_ be fairly allocated and have a clear and accurate register in which to describe them. This is taken care of by the IANA organization. It delegates the relevant resources based on the requests and needs to the respective RIRs (Regional Internet Registries - RIPE NCC, APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC, AFRINIC). They, in turn, delegate to local Internet registers - LIRs (we). And LIRs delegate resources to the end users. Each LIR is obliged to create and maintain up-to-date records for the resources under its control. And the LIR's records are kept in the database of the respective RIR.
RIRs are required to provide publicly, freely, up-to-date and accurate information on all records in their database so that all Internet participants (routers) can verify that the relevant resources are used by the entity to which they are delegated.
Everyone in the Internet can create their own database of records for Internet resources, the question is whether other participants in the Internet will believe and comply with his data. Every country in the world (in theory) can pass a law or laws that regulate an industry. If the Russian state decides to make its own register, and obliges all operators operating on its territory, OK, it would affect the Internet connectivity in the territory of the Russian Federation (if their DB is out of sync with the rest of the world ). Everyone else in the world will continue to use and trust RIRs databases.
Below I answer your questions from technical point of view...
Ivaylo Josifov VarnaIX / Varteh LTD Varna, Bulgaria
On Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Serg Galat wrote:
Dear Athina,
I have read your reply with great interest. You have done a great job with an impressive result. However, I will allow myself to repeat some of the questions that I am sure the entire community is interested in, and which have not been answered. And so: a) You said "The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources", when and if russian register with self isolated, will RIPEdb will be authoritative source?
Of course IANA and RIRs DB was,are and always will be authoritative sources.
b) Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
RIPE db was,is,and will be valid except cases when there are technical problems.
c) What action RIPE NCC will do when and if the Russian national register will self isolate from RIPEdb, as they plan. Based on some of their sovereign bills, of course?
Nothing.
And finally, I didn't have this question before, but you said "They told us that their database will have the same data as the RIPE database and it's just for backup" and I want to ask - do you believe them? After the statements of the Russians "we are not going to attack anyone," can they still be trusted now?
As I explained on top, they can do whatever they want with their copy of the db, we do not need to trust anyone else except IANA and RIRs. I do not understand your fear here.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:48 PM Athina Fragkouli <afragkou@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, all,
I would like to give some background on this matter and describe the RIPE NCC?s view.
We have been closely following legal developments with respect to Russian Internet regulation and provided updates in the past: https://labs.ripe.net/author/maxim_burtikov/russia-regulatory-update/
The creation of a local database of all Internet resources was part of the Russian Sovereign Internet Bill. According to Russian government officials, this was an effort to establish the security and resilience of a ?Russian segment of Internet?.
In February 2021, the RIPE NCC had a discussion with the organisation responsible for implementing the database to learn about the technical details. They told us that their database would have the same data as the RIPE Database and it was only intended as a back-up. They also stated that the RIPE Database would remain the primary source of data. Please note that while we sought to understand the details, the RIPE NCC did not contribute to this work in any way.
It is also worth noting that other governments in our service region also maintain similar databases, whether as back-ups or for other purposes. The RIPE NCC has always understood that governments will want to ensure diligent administration within their territories. We have sought to offer technical knowledge so that these efforts do not have a negative impact on Internet stability.
Our position on this matter has been firm:
The RIPE Database and the other RIR databases remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources. It is critical for Internet stability that any databases maintained by governments are consistent with the RIPE Database. Inconsistencies between these various databases and the RIPE Database may have severe consequences for the uniqueness of Internet number resources, which is fundamental for the global Internet.
Having said that, it is true that regulatory developments over the past decade include deliberate efforts to protect or otherwise affect the local Internet infrastructure, and these have the potential to impact our operations even as unintended consequence or side effect.
This concern has been highlighted on multiple occasions at RIPE Meetings and in the RIPE Labs article ?Caught in the Middle: Regulatory Impact and our Mission as the RIPE NCC?: https://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/caught-in-the-middle-regulatory-impact-a... In this article we explained that national or international legislation has already started to interfere with our ability to provide the same services to all RIPE NCC members on an equal basis, and this has the potential to impact the operation of the global Internet and might ultimately lead to fragmentation of the Internet.
As we work to mitigate potential threats to our ability to provide services to our members or to the operations of the Internet, we will keep the following principles in mind:
? The wider Internet governance system is essential to the stability of the global Internet and should not be undermined ? The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources ? All networks must be able to access Internet resources and related services on an equal basis, regardless of geography
We will share more information about this work with the membership and the community in due course.
Kind Regards,
Athina Fragkouli Chief Legal Officer RIPE NCC
On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:10, Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Athina,
Please take a look here. In my opinion, no one fully understands how it can end for the entire community by implementing such a project.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:53 PM Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Andrzej,
Looks like Russia created its own NIR. Against all policies, as RIPE as global. It was not clear whether this was discussed and agreed with RIPE as RIR. On scheme I saw a broken link to RIPEdb after release. What will be for all other members of all other RIR? Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
DNS and "The Great Russian Fire Wall" - these next questions, but not so critically important, to my mind.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:45 AM Andrzej ?awa <andrzej.lawa@dawis-it.pl> wrote:
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent.
Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzib? w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszk?w KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/greysticky%40gmail.co...
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
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-- Sergey
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On Fri, 2022-04-01 at 01:34 +0300, Serg Galat wrote:
On 23 Mar 2022, at 15:32, Denys Fedoryshchenko <nuclearcat@nuclearcat.com> wrote:
Dear Serg
First, are we seriously discussing topic based on tweet of some random anonymous person??? All this flood based just on that? Please provide more credible and informative source.
All as usual, someone unknown opening a Polichenell's Secret.
Is this enough credible and informative source? https://labs.ripe.net/author/alexander-isavnin/the-russian-sovereign-interne...
Second, i don't think it worth discussion, because only several options are possible: 1)They can make their copy of registry, with more extended data and LIR will maintain their records in RIPE according RIPE rules. Outcome: Thats doesnt change anything for rest of world. Russian operators will have more paperwork 2)They cut LIR from managing resources, and some russian government agency will act as proxy. Outcome: Some headache for RIPE, but for rest of the world data will be consistent, again. 3)They will make their own IP space and live in their own bubble. Outcome: Nobody will peer with Russia as before, likely it will be some sort of NAT to go in/out "Russian intranet".
The first and third are the problem only of Russian LIPs. But my concerns are about the second. How and who validate this data? Russian government? Ok. Will you sure that some IP address and ASn is from some Siberian ISP and not FSB? Do you really think that the FSB will appear only from the subnet where it says FSB, RUSSIA, KREMLIN and at the same time they should wave a Russian flag? Or law enforcement or counterintelligence of any country? Just please, take part in conferences, ask how it all works, so as not to write such nonsense. In cases of some questionable activity, one of the major purposes of
I'm not seeing really anything new here. Yes, the country is plunging into the abyss of bureaucratic procedures that will make telecom operators and content generators less competitive in the global market. But, this is their internal affair and it is up to them to decide how to deal with their internal issues, and not to you or me, foreigners. Very similar questions from government agencies were received, for example, in Lebanon and Turkey, at least, so what? The only difference was that the procedure was done with varying degrees of literacy and automation, and government agencies could be interested in other details. For example, some countries are asking for all customers on the ASN, with their names and phone numbers. For some reason, this did not arouse your sharp interest. the RIPE records is to identify the "legal routes" to real owner of the subnet. But this will not be done by a private person, but by law enforcement, which will specify who exactly was behind this IPv6 address or IPv4 connection tuple. Concluding, if the state where IP addresses are operating does not want to cooperate on some issues, incl. identifying a rogue person, the accuracy of the data in RIPE does not play a significant role.
The only colossal harm to connectivity can be caused by those whose emotional voices are heard here more and more often and who are pushing RIPE to violate the neutrality, with their "ideas" to disconnect someone or take away their addresses. This will end up with regional RIRs losing trust, ceasing to exist and each state will be managing its own address space. In my opinion, this will be the end of the Internet as we know it.
Are you hear this from me? Then why did you say me about? My question is - what will we need to do when this happens? We - I mean internet community. And RIPE NCC in particular.
On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 19:55 EET, Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear colleague, Thank you for your opinion. I'm understand you opinion - everything working right until everyone is do everything right. What I fear? I'm wrote about a little before
"Have you understood what was written on the plan-scheme? I let myself to translate records on bottom - "Российские локальные регистратуры должны будут отключиться от международного реестра и переключиться на российский" Russian local registries (LIRs) will have to disconnect from the international registry and switch to the Russian. Are you understand what this means for RIPE/EU community?"
Those. Russian LIRs stop registering and updating their data in the registry? So, what is next? And I'm not at all interested in what they will do in their national registry. And in what form they will use one. But I'm concerned about the validity of the data in RIPEdb.
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 5:21 PM ivaylo <ivaylo@bglans.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, Dear colleagues
I do not know exactly what are the purpose of your questions and fears, but from a technical point of view (for the functioning of the Internet in the region) they are unfounded.
The Internet is a global structure with limited resources. To function this structure, resources _MUST_ be fairly allocated and have a clear and accurate register in which to describe them. This is taken care of by the IANA organization. It delegates the relevant resources based on the requests and needs to the respective RIRs (Regional Internet Registries - RIPE NCC, APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC, AFRINIC). They, in turn, delegate to local Internet registers - LIRs (we). And LIRs delegate resources to the end users. Each LIR is obliged to create and maintain up-to-date records for the resources under its control. And the LIR's records are kept in the database of the respective RIR.
RIRs are required to provide publicly, freely, up-to-date and accurate information on all records in their database so that all Internet participants (routers) can verify that the relevant resources are used by the entity to which they are delegated.
Everyone in the Internet can create their own database of records for Internet resources, the question is whether other participants in the Internet will believe and comply with his data. Every country in the world (in theory) can pass a law or laws that regulate an industry. If the Russian state decides to make its own register, and obliges all operators operating on its territory, OK, it would affect the Internet connectivity in the territory of the Russian Federation (if their DB is out of sync with the rest of the world ). Everyone else in the world will continue to use and trust RIRs databases.
Below I answer your questions from technical point of view...
Ivaylo Josifov VarnaIX / Varteh LTD Varna, Bulgaria
On Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Serg Galat wrote:
Dear Athina,
I have read your reply with great interest. You have done a great job with an impressive result. However, I will allow myself to repeat some of the questions that I am sure the entire community is interested in, and which have not been answered. And so: a) You said "The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources", when and if russian register with self isolated, will RIPEdb will be authoritative source?
Of course IANA and RIRs DB was,are and always will be authoritative sources.
b) Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
RIPE db was,is,and will be valid except cases when there are technical problems.
c) What action RIPE NCC will do when and if the Russian national register will self isolate from RIPEdb, as they plan. Based on some of their sovereign bills, of course?
Nothing.
And finally, I didn't have this question before, but you said "They told us that their database will have the same data as the RIPE database and it's just for backup" and I want to ask - do you believe them? After the statements of the Russians "we are not going to attack anyone," can they still be trusted now?
As I explained on top, they can do whatever they want with their copy of the db, we do not need to trust anyone else except IANA and RIRs. I do not understand your fear here.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:48 PM Athina Fragkouli <afragkou@ripe.net> wrote:
Dear Serg, all,
I would like to give some background on this matter and describe the RIPE NCC?s view.
We have been closely following legal developments with respect to Russian Internet regulation and provided updates in the past: https://labs.ripe.net/author/maxim_burtikov/russia-regulatory-update/
The creation of a local database of all Internet resources was part of the Russian Sovereign Internet Bill. According to Russian government officials, this was an effort to establish the security and resilience of a ?Russian segment of Internet?.
In February 2021, the RIPE NCC had a discussion with the organisation responsible for implementing the database to learn about the technical details. They told us that their database would have the same data as the RIPE Database and it was only intended as a back-up. They also stated that the RIPE Database would remain the primary source of data. Please note that while we sought to understand the details, the RIPE NCC did not contribute to this work in any way.
It is also worth noting that other governments in our service region also maintain similar databases, whether as back-ups or for other purposes. The RIPE NCC has always understood that governments will want to ensure diligent administration within their territories. We have sought to offer technical knowledge so that these efforts do not have a negative impact on Internet stability.
Our position on this matter has been firm:
The RIPE Database and the other RIR databases remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources. It is critical for Internet stability that any databases maintained by governments are consistent with the RIPE Database. Inconsistencies between these various databases and the RIPE Database may have severe consequences for the uniqueness of Internet number resources, which is fundamental for the global Internet.
Having said that, it is true that regulatory developments over the past decade include deliberate efforts to protect or otherwise affect the local Internet infrastructure, and these have the potential to impact our operations even as unintended consequence or side effect.
This concern has been highlighted on multiple occasions at RIPE Meetings and in the RIPE Labs article ?Caught in the Middle: Regulatory Impact and our Mission as the RIPE NCC?:https://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/caught-in-the-middle-regulatory-impact-a... In this article we explained that national or international legislation has already started to interfere with our ability to provide the same services to all RIPE NCC members on an equal basis, and this has the potential to impact the operation of the global Internet and might ultimately lead to fragmentation of the Internet.
As we work to mitigate potential threats to our ability to provide services to our members or to the operations of the Internet, we will keep the following principles in mind:
? The wider Internet governance system is essential to the stability of the global Internet and should not be undermined ? The RIPE Database, along with the equivalent databases of the other RIRs, must remain the authoritative source to determine uniqueness of Internet number resources ? All networks must be able to access Internet resources and related services on an equal basis, regardless of geography
We will share more information about this work with the membership and the community in due course.
Kind Regards,
Athina Fragkouli Chief Legal Officer RIPE NCC
On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:10, Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Athina,
Please take a look here. In my opinion, no one fully understands how it can end for the entire community by implementing such a project.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:53 PM Serg Galat <greysticky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Andrzej,
Looks like Russia created its own NIR. Against all policies, as RIPE as global. It was not clear whether this was discussed and agreed with RIPE as RIR. On scheme I saw a broken link to RIPEdb after release. What will be for all other members of all other RIR? Will it be possible to consider RIPEdb records as valid? Or will part of the registry be compromised? What part? Or the entire registry?
DNS and "The Great Russian Fire Wall" - these next questions, but not so critically important, to my mind.
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:45 AM Andrzej ?awa <andrzej.lawa@dawis-it.pl> wrote:
W dniu 15.03.2022 o 20:58, Serg Galat pisze:
Dear Andrzej,
I agree with you, but the question is - what's going on?
IP registry separation seems to be not true, however it looks like they will be separating their DNS systems, or at least enforce (within Russia) fake DNS entries for "undesirable" foreign domains. I don't know about IP blacklisting... but it seems their government will try to create something akin to the "Great Firewall of China".
And some big backbone operators are cutting off Russia from their infrastructure.
Usually very active Russian LIRs are unusually silent.
Well, there's this Russian (or maybe Soviet? I can't recall if it originated in pre-revolutionary Russia or later in Soviet Union) saying: "Tisze budiesz, dalsze jediesz". I suspect they don't want to say anything that might get them into trouble - especially since even admitting there's any war going on can land them in jail.
-- tel. 500 206 0268 DAWIS IT Sp. z o.o. z siedzib? w Pruszkowie Adres: ul. Staszica 1, 05-800 Pruszk?w KRS 0000319237 I NIP 5342409456 I REGON 141663620
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-- Sergey
-- Sergey
-- Sergey
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-- Sergey
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Dear Serg, This is a fake, even the text on the picture is misspelled. The only truth is that some government sites do not announce networks outside the country. And the RANR database is apparently used to optimize restrictions. 14.03.2022 20:46, Serg Galat пишет:
Dear colleagues,
I found some strange scheme - https://twitter.com/EvgeniiBender/status/1502709009408835589?s=20&t=PSGBvgccyYeUB03ZpDPQug
If this is true, Russian LIR must be already registered in those structures.
Can anyone confirm or disprove the existence of such events?
-- Best regards, Denis Davydov
So, RANR is exist and working? And are all russian LIRs registered there? Am i right? On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 10:25 AM IZET telecom <noc@454.ru> wrote:
Dear Serg,
This is a fake, even the text on the picture is misspelled. The only truth is that some government sites do not announce networks outside the country. And the RANR database is apparently used to optimize restrictions.
14.03.2022 20:46, Serg Galat пишет:
Dear colleagues,
I found some strange scheme - https://twitter.com/EvgeniiBender/status/1502709009408835589?s=20&t=PSGBvgccyYeUB03ZpDPQug
If this is true, Russian LIR must be already registered in those structures.
Can anyone confirm or disprove the existence of such events?
-- Best regards, Denis Davydov
-- Sergey
participants (8)
-
Andrzej Ława -
Athina Fragkouli -
Denys Fedoryshchenko -
Dmitriy V Menzulskiy -
ivaylo -
IZET telecom -
Serg Galat -
Горелик Владимир