Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010
We've been discussing this draft with some of the NLNOG'ers (Dutch network operators), and from what we (or at least I) understood in a nutshell: In this draft, the PI space will lose it's scoring points scheme, and it'll just cost 50 euro's/year for an allocation (doesn't matter if it's a /24 or a /21 ?) Now a lot can (and has) already been said about the administrative implications, but from an operational standpoint it raises a few questions here. If a PI assignment will 'only' cost 50 euro's a year, won't everyone and his dog with a good story on why they need PI space just request their own range ?, I'm seeing a flurry of new customers with 1 or 2 servers knocking at our door to colocate these and say: 'Hey we have our own PI space, we don't need part of your PA, please add our range to your routers' Resulting lots of new small fragmented prefixes being added to the already growing global routing table.. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Jeroen Wunnink, EasyHosting B.V. Systeembeheerder systeembeheer@easyhosting.nl telefoon:+31 (035) 6285455 Postbus 48 fax: +31 (035) 6838242 3755 ZG Eemnes http://www.easyhosting.nl http://www.easycolocate.nl
oh dear, the routing table again... do you still run on your cisco 7200 with 32mb ram or what... get with the program, ours all have 8gb ram and even load the routing tables in under 15 minutes (half a second to be precise)... and yes, the original design was ofcourse for everyone thats connected to the internet to have their own ip space, now that hardware no longer costs a shit, i dont see any problems with that, if you still run old shit, upgrade! (you are gonna need it for ipv6 and 32 bit ASNs anyway) route table size, in my opinion, hasnt been an arguement since the invention of zebra and hot plug pci cards. -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Jeroen Wunnink wrote:
We've been discussing this draft with some of the NLNOG'ers (Dutch network operators), and from what we (or at least I) understood in a nutshell:
In this draft, the PI space will lose it's scoring points scheme, and it'll just cost 50 euro's/year for an allocation (doesn't matter if it's a /24 or a /21 ?)
Now a lot can (and has) already been said about the administrative implications, but from an operational standpoint it raises a few questions here. If a PI assignment will 'only' cost 50 euro's a year, won't everyone and his dog with a good story on why they need PI space just request their own range ?, I'm seeing a flurry of new customers with 1 or 2 servers knocking at our door to colocate these and say: 'Hey we have our own PI space, we don't need part of your PA, please add our range to your routers'
Resulting lots of new small fragmented prefixes being added to the already growing global routing table..
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Jeroen Wunnink, EasyHosting B.V. Systeembeheerder systeembeheer@easyhosting.nl
telefoon:+31 (035) 6285455 Postbus 48 fax: +31 (035) 6838242 3755 ZG Eemnes
http://www.easyhosting.nl http://www.easycolocate.nl
X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net"
oh dear, the routing table again... do you still run on your cisco 7200 with 32mb ram or what... get with the program, ours all have 8gb ram and even load the routing tables in under 15 minutes (half a second to be precise)... and yes, the original design was ofcourse for everyone thats connected to the internet to have their own ip space, now that hardware no longer costs a shit, i dont see any problems with that, if you still run old shit, upgrade! (you are gonna need it for ipv6 and 32 bit ASNs anyway) route table size, in my opinion, hasnt been an arguement since the invention of zebra and hot plug pci cards. -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Jeroen Wunnink wrote:
We've been discussing this draft with some of the NLNOG'ers (Dutch network operators), and from what we (or at least I) understood in a nutshell:
In this draft, the PI space will lose it's scoring points scheme, and it'll just cost 50 euro's/year for an allocation (doesn't matter if it's a /24 or a /21 ?)
Now a lot can (and has) already been said about the administrative implications, but from an operational standpoint it raises a few questions here. If a PI assignment will 'only' cost 50 euro's a year, won't everyone and his dog with a good story on why they need PI space just request their own range ?, I'm seeing a flurry of new customers with 1 or 2 servers knocking at our door to colocate these and say: 'Hey we have our own PI space, we don't need part of your PA, please add our range to your routers'
Resulting lots of new small fragmented prefixes being added to the already growing global routing table..
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Jeroen Wunnink, EasyHosting B.V. Systeembeheerder systeembeheer@easyhosting.nl
telefoon:+31 (035) 6285455 Postbus 48 fax: +31 (035) 6838242 3755 ZG Eemnes
http://www.easyhosting.nl http://www.easycolocate.nl
X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net"
Please remove me from this list. Thank you. Best regards Nicola Pavoni -----Messaggio originale----- Da: members-discuss-admin@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] Per conto di Sven Olaf Kamphuis Inviato: venerdì 19 giugno 2009 12.42 A: Jeroen Wunnink Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Oggetto: Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010 oh dear, the routing table again... do you still run on your cisco 7200 with 32mb ram or what... get with the program, ours all have 8gb ram and even load the routing tables in under 15 minutes (half a second to be precise)... and yes, the original design was ofcourse for everyone thats connected to the internet to have their own ip space, now that hardware no longer costs a shit, i dont see any problems with that, if you still run old shit, upgrade! (you are gonna need it for ipv6 and 32 bit ASNs anyway) route table size, in my opinion, hasnt been an arguement since the invention of zebra and hot plug pci cards. -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Jeroen Wunnink wrote:
We've been discussing this draft with some of the NLNOG'ers (Dutch network operators), and from what we (or at least I) understood in a nutshell:
In this draft, the PI space will lose it's scoring points scheme, and it'll just cost 50 euro's/year for an allocation (doesn't matter if it's a /24 or a /21 ?)
Now a lot can (and has) already been said about the administrative implications, but from an operational standpoint it raises a few questions here. If a PI assignment will 'only' cost 50 euro's a year, won't everyone and his dog with a good story on why they need PI space just request their own range ?, I'm seeing a flurry of new customers with 1 or 2 servers knocking at our door to colocate these and say: 'Hey we have our own PI space, we don't need part of your PA, please add our range to your routers'
Resulting lots of new small fragmented prefixes being added to the already growing global routing table..
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Jeroen Wunnink, EasyHosting B.V. Systeembeheerder systeembeheer@easyhosting.nl
telefoon:+31 (035) 6285455 Postbus 48 fax: +31 (035) 6838242 3755 ZG Eemnes
http://www.easyhosting.nl http://www.easycolocate.nl
X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net"
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besides, everyone and his dog -should- get pi space, thats what lirs are supposed to do, only until now they used to get it for free, usually at a one-time-payment base and for as long as the original criteria for the use are met, and ripe is trying to get the "old" ones to pay without no legal basis whatsoever changes in policy ofcourse cannot be applied to existing registrations... (and seriously... routing table size a problem? 1993 called, they want their hardware back) -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Jeroen Wunnink wrote:
We've been discussing this draft with some of the NLNOG'ers (Dutch network operators), and from what we (or at least I) understood in a nutshell:
In this draft, the PI space will lose it's scoring points scheme, and it'll just cost 50 euro's/year for an allocation (doesn't matter if it's a /24 or a /21 ?)
Now a lot can (and has) already been said about the administrative implications, but from an operational standpoint it raises a few questions here. If a PI assignment will 'only' cost 50 euro's a year, won't everyone and his dog with a good story on why they need PI space just request their own range ?, I'm seeing a flurry of new customers with 1 or 2 servers knocking at our door to colocate these and say: 'Hey we have our own PI space, we don't need part of your PA, please add our range to your routers'
Resulting lots of new small fragmented prefixes being added to the already growing global routing table..
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Jeroen Wunnink, EasyHosting B.V. Systeembeheerder systeembeheer@easyhosting.nl
telefoon:+31 (035) 6285455 Postbus 48 fax: +31 (035) 6838242 3755 ZG Eemnes
http://www.easyhosting.nl http://www.easycolocate.nl
X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net"
Jeroen Wunnink <jeroen@easyhosting.nl> wrote:
In this draft, the PI space will lose it's scoring points scheme, and it'll just cost 50 euro's/year for an allocation (doesn't matter if it's a /24 or a /21 ?)
If a PI assignment will 'only' cost 50 euro's a year, won't everyone and his dog with a good story on why they need PI space just request their own range ?, I'm seeing a flurry of new customers with 1 or 2 servers knocking at our door to colocate these and say: 'Hey we have our own PI space, we don't need part of your PA, please add our range to your routers'
From our point of view being SMALL, we'll still pay the same when we lose the PI/AS scoring (with 1x v4 PA and 1x v6 PA) yet we'll now have to go around and tell our clients that their admin fee for their AS/PI is going to have to go up because RIPE rules have changed. Previously our charges were reflecting by our costs, ie. our category, now they will be reflected by our category
What I have seen happening is this, some providers at the lower end of the hosting/colo/network end of the market have been offering the PI and AS services for free to get new business in. They've done this because once they have reached a certain size and their LIR category is big enough they have enough scoring leeway available to do this without it costing them more. Obviously this kind of practice where it's easy for PI/AS to become a zero cost option will naturally increase take up. I have even seen it advertised as part of the sale process ("/24 PI with our full racks"). I could speculate that when we are running out of address space that attaching a direct monetary value to that IP space may serve to effect some slow down in take up. plus 50 EUR per object. This is annoying when you've already told clients what the admin fee will be and then have to go around telling them things have changed, no-one gets price rises, especially in a recession. I am fine with the concept but the implications are very annoying and could cost us money. Regards, -Paul- -- Paul Civati <paul(at)racksense.com> 0870 321 2855 Rack Sense Ltd - Managed Service Provider - www.racksense.com
* Jeroen Wunnink:
If a PI assignment will 'only' cost 50 euro's a year, won't everyone and his dog with a good story on why they need PI space just request their own range ?,
Over all the years, PI assignments weren't included in the LIR billing score after the year of assignment. There has already been a rather strong incentive to obtain PI space for customers. (BTW, if you don't want to receive this discussion, please go to the LIR Portal and make the required changes to your mailing list subscriptions.) -- Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de> BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstraße 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99
It's not ? From the charging scheme on the RIPE site, PI space is currently counted with a higher score as PA space: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/charging.html A /21 PA has a score of 1 against a /24 PI which also has a score of 1 Florian Weimer wrote:
* Jeroen Wunnink:
If a PI assignment will 'only' cost 50 euro's a year, won't everyone and his dog with a good story on why they need PI space just request their own range ?,
Over all the years, PI assignments weren't included in the LIR billing score after the year of assignment. There has already been a rather strong incentive to obtain PI space for customers.
(BTW, if you don't want to receive this discussion, please go to the LIR Portal and make the required changes to your mailing list subscriptions.)
-- Met vriendelijke groet, Jeroen Wunnink, EasyHosting B.V. Systeembeheerder systeembeheer@easyhosting.nl telefoon:+31 (035) 6285455 Postbus 48 fax: +31 (035) 6838242 3755 ZG Eemnes http://www.easyhosting.nl http://www.easycolocate.nl
It's not ?
From the charging scheme on the RIPE site, PI space is currently counted with a higher score as PA space:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/charging.html
A /21 PA has a score of 1 against a /24 PI which also has a score of 1
only for the first (2?) year(s) after registration. after that pi space and customer-org as numbers are no longer counted in the lir billing score, after all, the PI-users intention is to be independant of providers, and therefore doesnt want the possibility for the lir to screw him over (change prices, contracts,etc) in the long run either. -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Jeroen Wunnink wrote:
It's not ?
From the charging scheme on the RIPE site, PI space is currently counted with a higher score as PA space:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/charging.html
A /21 PA has a score of 1 against a /24 PI which also has a score of 1
Florian Weimer wrote:
* Jeroen Wunnink:
If a PI assignment will 'only' cost 50 euro's a year, won't everyone and his dog with a good story on why they need PI space just request their own range ?,
Over all the years, PI assignments weren't included in the LIR billing score after the year of assignment. There has already been a rather strong incentive to obtain PI space for customers.
(BTW, if you don't want to receive this discussion, please go to the LIR Portal and make the required changes to your mailing list subscriptions.)
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Jeroen Wunnink, EasyHosting B.V. Systeembeheerder systeembeheer@easyhosting.nl
telefoon:+31 (035) 6285455 Postbus 48 fax: +31 (035) 6838242 3755 ZG Eemnes
http://www.easyhosting.nl http://www.easycolocate.nl
X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net"
Sven, Even though I generally agree with your point of view(s) in this discussion, I have to agree with Florian here. It doesn't show from the billing score that IPv4 PI space is only influencing the billing score for a couple of years. The formula is the same for all resources, referencing to 1992 and IPv4 PI space and AS numbers are no exception there. With kind regards, Andries Hettema IP-Office KPN Internet 070 45 13398 ip-office@kpn.com -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-admin@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Sven Olaf Kamphuis Sent: vrijdag 19 juni 2009 13:21 To: Jeroen Wunnink Cc: Florian Weimer; members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010
It's not ?
From the charging scheme on the RIPE site, PI space is currently counted with a higher score as PA space:
A /21 PA has a score of 1 against a /24 PI which also has a score of 1
only for the first (2?) year(s) after registration. after that pi space and customer-org as numbers are no longer counted in the lir billing score, after all, the PI-users intention is to be independant of providers, and therefore doesnt want the possibility for the lir to screw him over (change prices, contracts,etc) in the long run either. -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Jeroen Wunnink wrote:
It's not ?
From the charging scheme on the RIPE site, PI space is currently counted with a higher score as PA space:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/charging.html
A /21 PA has a score of 1 against a /24 PI which also has a score of 1
Florian Weimer wrote:
* Jeroen Wunnink:
If a PI assignment will 'only' cost 50 euro's a year, won't everyone and his dog with a good story on why they need PI space just request their own range ?,
Over all the years, PI assignments weren't included in the LIR billing score after the year of assignment. There has already been a rather strong incentive to obtain PI space for customers.
(BTW, if you don't want to receive this discussion, please go to the LIR Portal and make the required changes to your mailing list subscriptions.)
--
Met vriendelijke groet,
Jeroen Wunnink, EasyHosting B.V. Systeembeheerder systeembeheer@easyhosting.nl
telefoon:+31 (035) 6285455 Postbus 48 fax: +31 (035) 6838242 3755 ZG Eemnes
http://www.easyhosting.nl http://www.easycolocate.nl
X-CONTACT-FILTER-MATCH: "ripe.net"
participants (9)
-
Florian Weimer -
IP-Office KPN -
Jeroen Wunnink -
Paul Civati -
Pavoni Nicola -
Sven Olaf Kamphuis -
Sven Olaf Kamphuis -
Thomas Mangin -
Venditti Stefano