Re: [members-discuss] Membership Fee Question
Dominic, I think the reason is that at the GM RIPE misleadingly said that even if we redistribute only “50%” of the surplus, the amount will be the same as last year. Which clearly it isn’t. Unfortunately many based their votes on what the people at RIPE SAID and they didn’t do the math themselves, otherwise they would have seen that there is a significant difference in amounts. And now RIPE is covered, they will say “you voted, case closed” even though they gave very misleading information. So, that’s why the surplus is so much smaller compared to 2019, and that’s the reason RIPE NCC will also pay taxes to NL authorities, etc etc. Basically, they didn’t want to give money to it’s members, they preferred to give money to the dutch fiscal authority. From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Dominic Schallert Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 20:38 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Membership Fee Question I can‘t understand why the surplus redistribution in 2019 had been EUR 567,52 and in 2020 it’s only EUR 353,82 per LIR. This does not match with the actual new-LIR development figures in 2019 according to https://labs.ripe.net/statistics/number-of-lirs Regards Am 26.02.2020 um 15:26 schrieb Radu-Adrian Feurdean <ripe-ncc@radu-adrian.feurdean.net<mailto:ripe-ncc@radu-adrian.feurdean.net>>: On Mon, Feb 24, 2020, at 21:41, Arash Naderpour wrote: It doesn't looks fair to me, but you need to see enough support from the memebers to change it, NCC also like easy money, same as many of others. ...and as most of its members who do enjoy the redistribution (when there is one) the next year. Back to the initial question, the membership fee *IS* pro-rated when you *open* the LIR, sometimes to the advantage of the new member (not including an extra quarter for up to 2 or 3 weeks only). If you perform a merger via "M&A Process", the rules are pretty clear that both LIRs involved need to be with membership fees paid. Even if you would manage to propose a resolution to change this, I'm not sure it will pass. -- Radu-Adrian FEURDEAN _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ds%40schallert.com
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, Skyline Telecom wrote:
Dominic,
I think the reason is that at the GM RIPE misleadingly said that even if we redistribute only ?50%? of the surplus, the amount will be the same as last year. Which clearly it isn?t.
Hello, I think i was there (at the Rotterdam GM) but don't really recall that. Is that in the minutes? -- i haven't checked. Even if it isn't, who said that? It was someone from the Board or a NCC employee? The Board is elected by the Membership. If you feel you were mislead you can always try to elect different people next time. Cheers, Carlos
Unfortunately many based their votes on what the people at RIPE SAID and they didn?t do the math themselves, otherwise they would have seen that there is a significant difference in amounts. And now RIPE is covered, they will say ?you voted, case closed? even though they gave very misleading information.
So, that?s why the surplus is so much smaller compared to 2019, and that?s the reason RIPE NCC will also pay taxes to NL authorities, etc etc. Basically, they didn?t want to give money to it?s members, they preferred to give money to the dutch fiscal authority.
From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Dominic Schallert Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 20:38 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Membership Fee Question
I can?t understand why the surplus redistribution in 2019 had been EUR 567,52 and in 2020 it?s only EUR 353,82 per LIR. This does not match with the actual new-LIR development figures in 2019 according to https://labs.ripe.net/statistics/number-of-lirs
Regards
Am 26.02.2020 um 15:26 schrieb Radu-Adrian Feurdean <ripe-ncc@radu-adrian.feurdean.net>:
On Mon, Feb 24, 2020, at 21:41, Arash Naderpour wrote:
It doesn't looks fair to me, but you need to see enough support from
the memebers to change it, NCC also like easy money, same as many of
others.
...and as most of its members who do enjoy the redistribution (when there is one) the next year.
Back to the initial question, the membership fee *IS* pro-rated when you *open* the LIR, sometimes to the advantage of the new member (not including an extra quarter for up to 2 or 3 weeks only).
If you perform a merger via "M&A Process", the rules are pretty clear that both LIRs involved need to be with membership fees paid. Even if you would manage to propose a resolution to change this, I'm not sure it will pass.
--
Radu-Adrian FEURDEAN
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Hello again, I think i found it -- you were right! https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2019/stenograp... "So, now is the number too big or either doing one or the other, we thought it would be an awesome idea if we split it and offer the compromise of the 50:50 chance. This is the part that got confusing unfortunately. You will see then in the presentation the exact numbers and what they mean and one big part which we looked at, if we do 50:50 the amount of money we give back is roughly in the order of what we did in the last years, so what you have expected and kind of got accustomed to. In the 50:50 example it is pretty much the same amount of money. But I'll leave the rest for Gwen, otherwise I'll steal all other slides. But of that the rationale for having three options." However if we see the referenced slides, on slide 6 the values are 528 EUR in 2018 vs. a projected 296 EUR (with 50% for 2019). 296 is around 56% of 528 -- that doesn't really seem "roughly in the order of what we did in the last years" to me... Cheers, Carlos On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, Carlos Friaças via members-discuss wrote:
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, Skyline Telecom wrote:
Dominic,
I think the reason is that at the GM RIPE misleadingly said that even if we redistribute only ?50%? of the surplus, the amount will be the same as last year. Which clearly it isn?t.
Hello,
I think i was there (at the Rotterdam GM) but don't really recall that.
Is that in the minutes? -- i haven't checked.
Even if it isn't, who said that? It was someone from the Board or a NCC employee?
The Board is elected by the Membership. If you feel you were mislead you can always try to elect different people next time.
Cheers, Carlos
Unfortunately many based their votes on what the people at RIPE SAID and they didn?t do the math themselves, otherwise they would have seen that there is a significant difference in amounts. And now RIPE is covered, they will say ?you voted, case closed? even though they gave very misleading information.
So, that?s why the surplus is so much smaller compared to 2019, and that?s the reason RIPE NCC will also pay taxes to NL authorities, etc etc. Basically, they didn?t want to give money to it?s members, they preferred to give money to the dutch fiscal authority.
From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Dominic Schallert Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 20:38 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Membership Fee Question
I can?t understand why the surplus redistribution in 2019 had been EUR 567,52 and in 2020 it?s only EUR 353,82 per LIR. This does not match with the actual new-LIR development figures in 2019 according to https://labs.ripe.net/statistics/number-of-lirs
Regards
Am 26.02.2020 um 15:26 schrieb Radu-Adrian Feurdean <ripe-ncc@radu-adrian.feurdean.net>:
On Mon, Feb 24, 2020, at 21:41, Arash Naderpour wrote:
It doesn't looks fair to me, but you need to see enough support from
the memebers to change it, NCC also like easy money, same as many of
others.
...and as most of its members who do enjoy the redistribution (when there is one) the next year.
Back to the initial question, the membership fee *IS* pro-rated when you *open* the LIR, sometimes to the advantage of the new member (not including an extra quarter for up to 2 or 3 weeks only).
If you perform a merger via "M&A Process", the rules are pretty clear that both LIRs involved need to be with membership fees paid. Even if you would manage to propose a resolution to change this, I'm not sure it will pass.
--
Radu-Adrian FEURDEAN
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Thank you very much for admitting I was right. This is exactly what I was talking about. And this information has been restated 2-3 times and when the slides with the actual amount were shown, all discussion was deviated to another subject .... As for the amount itself, of course it does not mean so much business wise but I really do not appreciate the way it was done. If RIPE NCC managed to mislead the entire membership with this, it really is an alarm signal, they may as well be doing it on a much larger scale. Silviu -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Friaças <cfriacas@fccn.pt> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 22:49 To: Skyline Telecom <Skylinetelecom@outlook.com> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [LIR] Re: [members-discuss] Membership Fee Question Hello again, I think i found it -- you were right! https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2019/stenograp... "So, now is the number too big or either doing one or the other, we thought it would be an awesome idea if we split it and offer the compromise of the 50:50 chance. This is the part that got confusing unfortunately. You will see then in the presentation the exact numbers and what they mean and one big part which we looked at, if we do 50:50 the amount of money we give back is roughly in the order of what we did in the last years, so what you have expected and kind of got accustomed to. In the 50:50 example it is pretty much the same amount of money. But I'll leave the rest for Gwen, otherwise I'll steal all other slides. But of that the rationale for having three options." However if we see the referenced slides, on slide 6 the values are 528 EUR in 2018 vs. a projected 296 EUR (with 50% for 2019). 296 is around 56% of 528 -- that doesn't really seem "roughly in the order of what we did in the last years" to me... Cheers, Carlos On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, Carlos Friaças via members-discuss wrote:
On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, Skyline Telecom wrote:
Dominic,
I think the reason is that at the GM RIPE misleadingly said that even if we redistribute only ?50%? of the surplus, the amount will be the same as last year. Which clearly it isn?t.
Hello,
I think i was there (at the Rotterdam GM) but don't really recall that.
Is that in the minutes? -- i haven't checked.
Even if it isn't, who said that? It was someone from the Board or a NCC employee?
The Board is elected by the Membership. If you feel you were mislead you can always try to elect different people next time.
Cheers, Carlos
Unfortunately many based their votes on what the people at RIPE SAID and they didn?t do the math themselves, otherwise they would have seen that there is a significant difference in amounts. And now RIPE is covered, they will say ?you voted, case closed? even though they gave very misleading information.
So, that?s why the surplus is so much smaller compared to 2019, and that?s the reason RIPE NCC will also pay taxes to NL authorities, etc etc. Basically, they didn?t want to give money to it?s members, they preferred to give money to the dutch fiscal authority.
From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> On Behalf Of Dominic Schallert Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 20:38 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Membership Fee Question
I can?t understand why the surplus redistribution in 2019 had been EUR 567,52 and in 2020 it?s only EUR 353,82 per LIR. This does not match with the actual new-LIR development figures in 2019 according to https://labs.ripe.net/statistics/number-of-lirs
Regards
Am 26.02.2020 um 15:26 schrieb Radu-Adrian Feurdean <ripe-ncc@radu-adrian.feurdean.net>:
On Mon, Feb 24, 2020, at 21:41, Arash Naderpour wrote:
It doesn't looks fair to me, but you need to see enough support from
the memebers to change it, NCC also like easy money, same as many of
others.
...and as most of its members who do enjoy the redistribution (when there is one) the next year.
Back to the initial question, the membership fee *IS* pro-rated when you *open* the LIR, sometimes to the advantage of the new member (not including an extra quarter for up to 2 or 3 weeks only).
If you perform a merger via "M&A Process", the rules are pretty clear that both LIRs involved need to be with membership fees paid. Even if you would manage to propose a resolution to change this, I'm not sure it will pass.
--
Radu-Adrian FEURDEAN
_______________________________________________
members-discuss mailing list
members-discuss@ripe.net
https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ds%40schallert .com
Hi, On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 03:26:28PM +0000, Skyline Telecom wrote:
296 is around 56% of 528 -- that doesn't really seem "roughly in the order of what we did in the last years" to me...
"Roughly in the order" is, among scientists, usually in the range 1/2 to 2x of the number compared to. So this would nicely fit the range. Now, if a physicist starts talking about "we got the order of the exponent right", he's talking about 10^x with "x" being "right by a factor of 1/5 to x5"... :-) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020, at 21:48, Carlos Friaças via members-discuss wrote:
296 is around 56% of 528 -- that doesn't really seem "roughly in the order of what we did in the last years" to me...
Please note that the text was "last year*s*". With "s", indicating more than one. And that is in line with the redistribution for 2017, 2016 and 2015. The only exceptional year (not counting 2019 - under discussion at that moment) was 2018 (redistributed on the 2019 invoice). -- Radu-Adrian FEURDEAN
Hi, On Fri, 28 Feb 2020, Radu-Adrian Feurdean wrote:
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020, at 21:48, Carlos Friaças via members-discuss wrote:
296 is around 56% of 528 -- that doesn't really seem "roughly in the order of what we did in the last years" to me...
Please note that the text was "last year*s*". With "s", indicating more than one. And that is in line with the redistribution for 2017, 2016 and 2015. The only exceptional year (not counting 2019 - under discussion at that moment) was 2018 (redistributed on the 2019 invoice).
From that i got the feeling that 2015-2017 was very different from 2018, and those 3 first years would lower the average for the whole 4-year
Yes, i've also looked at slide 11 -- i also read "last years" and not "last year's" (only 2018). :-) period. However, there is also a nagging detail: slide 6 shows values about the return per LIR, while slide 11 presents the total sums of money to be returned WITHOUT the value per LIR -- and we all know the number of LIRs was NOT linear during those 3 years! What i really would like to have seen is the expanded table for 2015, 2016 and 2017 on slide 6. But that doesn't really matter now, after the 50% return cut which was approved by the membership... Cheers, Carlos
-- Radu-Adrian FEURDEAN
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* Skyline Telecom <Skylinetelecom@outlook.com> [2020-02-26 21:12]:
Dominic,
I think the reason is that at the GM RIPE misleadingly said that even if we redistribute only “50%” of the surplus, the amount will be the same as last year. Which clearly it isn’t.
If I remember correctly the wording was that it would be "pretty much" the same amount. 353 EUR vs. 567 EUR from a business perspective sounds like "pretty much the same" to me.
Unfortunately many based their votes on what the people at RIPE SAID and they didn’t do the math themselves, otherwise they would have seen that there is a significant difference in amounts. And now RIPE is covered, they will say “you voted, case closed” even though they gave very misleading information.
If 214 EUR means a "significant difference" for your business I think it would be time to reevaluate your business model. Regards Sebastian
participants (5)
-
Carlos Friaças -
Gert Doering -
Radu-Adrian Feurdean -
Sebastian Wiesinger -
Skyline Telecom