Charging Scheme Task Force 2024 Meeting Minutes (10 December 2024)
Dear RIPE NCC members, The Charging Scheme Task Force held a meeting on 10 December 2024. The minutes from the meeting are now available at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/member-and-community-consultations/char... The task force welcomes comments on the minutes, either on this list or you can email the task force directly at: charging-scheme-task-force2024@ripe.net The first task force meeting of 2025 will be held this week and we will keep you informed of the progress being made. Best regards, Karla Liddle-White Communications Officer RIPE NCC
As the years go by, nothing changes. We are discussing the category model, although it has already been rejected twice. It reminds me of the story of the elections in Romania and the European Commission. When will the discussion about paying for resources without categories begin?
Dear RIPE NCC members,
The Charging Scheme Task Force held a meeting on 10 December 2024.
The minutes from the meeting are now available at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/member-and-community-consultations/char...
The task force welcomes comments on the minutes, either on this list or you can email the task force directly at: charging-scheme-task-force2024@ripe.net
The first task force meeting of 2025 will be held this week and we will keep you informed of the progress being made.
Best regards, Karla Liddle-White Communications Officer RIPE NCC ----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.
Hello, On 13/01/2025 12:38, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
As the years go by, nothing changes. We are discussing the category model, although it has already been rejected twice. It reminds me of the story of the elections in Romania and the European Commission. When will the discussion about paying for resources without categories begin?
RIPE NCC needs to maintain its non-profit status (that's a requirement as a RIR) and it is desirable to keep the current tax agreement. Charging directly for resources would put this status at risk. A category-based model is viewed as the safest option to differentiate fees. For more information: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/member-and-community-consultations/char... Best regards, Sebastien Brossier Disclaimer: I am a member of the charging scheme task force 2024
On 13/01/2025 20:33:31, "Sebastien Brossier" <sebastien@brossier.org> wrote:
On 13/01/2025 12:38, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
As the years go by, nothing changes. We are discussing the category model, although it has already been rejected twice. It reminds me of the story of the elections in Romania and the European Commission. When will the discussion about paying for resources without categories begin?
RIPE NCC needs to maintain its non-profit status (that's a requirement as a RIR) and it is desirable to keep the current tax agreement. Charging directly for resources would put this status at risk.
So charge for services in proportion to a members amount of resources.
A category-based model is viewed as the safest option to differentiate fees.
Lets be honest, that is just a quantised version of charging in proportion to a members amount of resources so should be no more tax safe. People may be fine with category-based if they thought it fair. However a non linear quantisation scheme is going to be unfair to someone. So the way to get one passed is to weight the unfairness into the categories with fewer voting members. I do not see directly proportionate passing due to large members who have been protected by the tax argument. Otherwise we'll have the same old arguments and end up with a flat fee again, which is least worse. One more peril of categories that may put people off is agreeing to them then the categories changing unfavourably but I presume they could vote for flat again if it was offered. brandon
Am 14.01.25 um 00:52 schrieb Brandon Butterworth:
One more peril of categories that may put people off is agreeing to them then the categories changing unfavourably but I presume they could vote for flat again if it was offered.
With emphasis on 'if'. IMO, last year showed pretty well that members only have limited control on this aspect of their membership. Regards, -kai -- Kai Siering Senior System Engineer mail.de GmbH Münsterstraße 3 D-33330 Gütersloh Tel.: +49 (0) 5241 / 74 34 986 Fax: +49 (0) 5241 / 74 34 987 E-Mail: k.siering@team.mail.de Web: https://mail.de/ Geschäftsführender Gesellschafter: Fabian Bock Sitz der Gesellschaft Nordhastedt Handelsregister Pinneberg HRB 8007 PI Steuernummer 18 293 20020
Hi All ! -- The Problem: It has been said more AND MORE than once, that paying for categories with falling price for 1 IP will only worsen the situation. -- Because: There will be NO point in releasing unused addresses by holders. But now it will be more tragedic! After current model of categories starting, big holders will continue nothing to do and simply wait, and will sell IP in x1000 price that they pay per year for it. And they will talking everyone: "Look we are pay more! We are GOOD BOYS!". And time to change charging scheme to close deficite or move to IPv(X) will never come. -- My decision IPV4 problem: If we want categories - Ok! Let's do 5-10 categories, but using the formula P*N ^ K, where K>1 (for exapmle = 1.01 ). Fee = ( (P - Base price for 1 IP) multiplying (N - Max IP count by holder in category) ) in power K ), where K>1. So then, the more addresses you have, the more you pay for 1 IP address! -- Results: This we will really see a start to transition to a new level in the problem that has happen in IPv4! An it will be Revolution! -- Litle more Someone will tell me again: that then we will be heavily dependent on individual players! OK! Then let's do a 2-part fee. First part: 50-70% (= 95% of current NCC budget) - is equal for everyone. Second part: according to the above formula. So if it will work we will have 150% of current year budget, but most of us will pay less!!! It is good! If the big players will leave, we will somehow survive and divide these addresses among those who really need them! If they stay we will have a big profit budget next year, and do lower first part to 50% of real budget and can make more reserves for future dificult times. ---- With best regards to everyone. Serbulov Dmitry.
Hello,
On 13/01/2025 12:38, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
As the years go by, nothing changes. We are discussing the category model, although it has already been rejected twice. It reminds me of the story of the elections in Romania and the European Commission. When will the discussion about paying for resources without categories begin?
RIPE NCC needs to maintain its non-profit status (that's a requirement as a RIR) and it is desirable to keep the current tax agreement. Charging directly for resources would put this status at risk. A category-based model is viewed as the safest option to differentiate fees.
For more information: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/member-and-community-consultations/char...
Best regards, Sebastien Brossier Disclaimer: I am a member of the charging scheme task force 2024
----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.
Look, some people got some addresses a long time ago. Some didn’t. It’s very unlikely that anyone would return addresses or that the situation would change materially. Most people run businesses that depend on addressing. I don’t think it’s RIPE’s (or NCC’s) job to introduce a Pigouvian tax to try to get people to use less addresses, either. Neither does it make any sense that the unit cost would increase as it would in your proposal. I'd guess everyone would shift the increase cost to the customer. Also, could we skip the talk about a revolution, please. Kaj Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ From: sdy@a-n-t.ru <sdy@a-n-t.ru> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2025 5:01:41 AM To: Sebastien Brossier <sebastien@brossier.org> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: [members-discuss] Re: Charging Scheme Task Force 2024 Meeting Minutes (10 December 2024) Hi All ! -- The Problem: It has been said more AND MORE than once, that paying for categories with falling price for 1 IP will only worsen the situation. -- Because: There will be NO point in releasing unused addresses by holders. But now it will be more tragedic! After current model of categories starting, big holders will continue nothing to do and simply wait, and will sell IP in x1000 price that they pay per year for it. And they will talking everyone: "Look we are pay more! We are GOOD BOYS!". And time to change charging scheme to close deficite or move to IPv(X) will never come. -- My decision IPV4 problem: If we want categories - Ok! Let's do 5-10 categories, but using the formula P*N ^ K, where K>1 (for exapmle = 1.01 ). Fee = ( (P - Base price for 1 IP) multiplying (N - Max IP count by holder in category) ) in power K ), where K>1. So then, the more addresses you have, the more you pay for 1 IP address! -- Results: This we will really see a start to transition to a new level in the problem that has happen in IPv4! An it will be Revolution! -- Litle more Someone will tell me again: that then we will be heavily dependent on individual players! OK! Then let's do a 2-part fee. First part: 50-70% (= 95% of current NCC budget) - is equal for everyone. Second part: according to the above formula. So if it will work we will have 150% of current year budget, but most of us will pay less!!! It is good! If the big players will leave, we will somehow survive and divide these addresses among those who really need them! If they stay we will have a big profit budget next year, and do lower first part to 50% of real budget and can make more reserves for future dificult times. ---- With best regards to everyone. Serbulov Dmitry.
Hello,
On 13/01/2025 12:38, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
As the years go by, nothing changes. We are discussing the category model, although it has already been rejected twice. It reminds me of the story of the elections in Romania and the European Commission. When will the discussion about paying for resources without categories begin?
RIPE NCC needs to maintain its non-profit status (that's a requirement as a RIR) and it is desirable to keep the current tax agreement. Charging directly for resources would put this status at risk. A category-based model is viewed as the safest option to differentiate fees.
Best regards, Sebastien Brossier Disclaimer: I am a member of the charging scheme task force 2024
----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.ripe.net%2Fmailman3%2Flists%2Fmembers-discuss.ripe.net%2F&data=05%7C02%7C%7C02e329ddc6354a353a1008dd3447cc1d%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638724205178079843%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rtjII7X6otbRZg%2BMlBHL7gX25ezQk7XxwxqE3NuHFuA%3D&reserved=0<https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/> As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fmembership%2Fmail%2Fmailman-3-migration%2F&data=05%7C02%7C%7C02e329ddc6354a353a1008dd3447cc1d%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638724205178090725%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=RJx2O4CbvxgvE0%2Fd39ZXVdzqBd4fwgdeJkhDSAZA9Oc%3D&reserved=0<https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/>
----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот. ----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.ripe.net%2Fmailman3%2Flists%2Fmembers-discuss.ripe.net%2F&data=05%7C02%7C%7C02e329ddc6354a353a1008dd3447cc1d%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638724205178101763%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2Bh%2BUDB0ZhMnA63Taai2NcuR0LkIXIaO%2BDlnr7hm2%2FnI%3D&reserved=0<https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/> As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fmembership%2Fmail%2Fmailman-3-migration%2F&data=05%7C02%7C%7C02e329ddc6354a353a1008dd3447cc1d%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638724205178113494%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ID%2BYKSxDD2fxHsf%2BBx26xSst7pXmigaJ58oUAd%2FiLDY%3D&reserved=0<https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/>
Time passes, everything changes. When there were a lot of available addresses, a business could do what was convenient and profitable for it. And now, when something starts to be missing, and someone is abusing it and profiting from the deficit, it's time for regulation. This means it's time to change the business, for the benefit of other people.
Look, some people got some addresses a long time ago. Some didn’t. It’s very unlikely that anyone would return addresses or that the situation would change materially. Most people run businesses that depend on addressing.
I don’t think it’s RIPE’s (or NCC’s) job to introduce a Pigouvian tax to try to get people to use less addresses, either. Neither does it make any sense that the unit cost would increase as it would in your proposal. I'd guess everyone would shift the increase cost to the customer.
Also, could we skip the talk about a revolution, please.
Kaj
Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ From: sdy@a-n-t.ru <sdy@a-n-t.ru> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2025 5:01:41 AM To: Sebastien Brossier <sebastien@brossier.org> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: [members-discuss] Re: Charging Scheme Task Force 2024 Meeting Minutes (10 December 2024)
Hi All !
-- The Problem: It has been said more AND MORE than once, that paying for categories with falling price for 1 IP will only worsen the situation.
-- Because: There will be NO point in releasing unused addresses by holders. But now it will be more tragedic! After current model of categories starting, big holders will continue nothing to do and simply wait, and will sell IP in x1000 price that they pay per year for it. And they will talking everyone: "Look we are pay more! We are GOOD BOYS!". And time to change charging scheme to close deficite or move to IPv(X) will never come.
-- My decision IPV4 problem: If we want categories - Ok! Let's do 5-10 categories, but using the formula P*N ^ K, where K>1 (for exapmle = 1.01 ).
Fee = ( (P - Base price for 1 IP) multiplying (N - Max IP count by holder in category) ) in power K ), where K>1. So then, the more addresses you have, the more you pay for 1 IP address!
-- Results: This we will really see a start to transition to a new level in the problem that has happen in IPv4! An it will be Revolution!
-- Litle more Someone will tell me again: that then we will be heavily dependent on individual players!
OK! Then let's do a 2-part fee. First part: 50-70% (= 95% of current NCC budget) - is equal for everyone.
Second part: according to the above formula.
So if it will work we will have 150% of current year budget, but most of us will pay less!!! It is good!
If the big players will leave, we will somehow survive and divide these addresses among those who really need them! If they stay we will have a big profit budget next year, and do lower first part to 50% of real budget and can make more reserves for future dificult times.
---- With best regards to everyone. Serbulov Dmitry.
Hello,
On 13/01/2025 12:38, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
As the years go by, nothing changes. We are discussing the category model, although it has already been rejected twice. It reminds me of the story of the elections in Romania and the European Commission. When will the discussion about paying for resources without categories begin?
RIPE NCC needs to maintain its non-profit status (that's a requirement as a RIR) and it is desirable to keep the current tax agreement. Charging directly for resources would put this status at risk. A category-based model is viewed as the safest option to differentiate fees.
Best regards, Sebastien Brossier Disclaimer: I am a member of the charging scheme task force 2024
----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.ripe.net%2Fmailman3%2Flists%2Fmembers-discuss.ripe.net%2F&data=05%7C02%7C%7C02e329ddc6354a353a1008dd3447cc1d%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638724205178079843%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rtjII7X6otbRZg%2BMlBHL7gX25ezQk7XxwxqE3NuHFuA%3D&reserved=0<https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/> As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fmembership%2Fmail%2Fmailman-3-migration%2F&data=05%7C02%7C%7C02e329ddc6354a353a1008dd3447cc1d%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638724205178090725%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=RJx2O4CbvxgvE0%2Fd39ZXVdzqBd4fwgdeJkhDSAZA9Oc%3D&reserved=0<https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/>
----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.
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----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.
Hi, On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 06:01:41AM +0300, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
-- My decision IPV4 problem:
This is the problem. Stop being obsessed with IPv4, move to IPv6. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Ingo Lalla, Karin Schuler, Sebastian Cler Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
+1 -- Kind regards Sebastian Becker [T-Logo mit Schriftzug "Connecting your world."] The compulsory statement can be found here: www.telekom.com/compulsory-statement<http://www.telekom.com/compulsory-statement> Am 14.01.25, 08:55 schrieb "Gert Doering" <gert@space.net>: Hi, On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 06:01:41AM +0300, sdy@a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru> wrote:
-- My decision IPV4 problem:
This is the problem. Stop being obsessed with IPv4, move to IPv6. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Ingo Lalla, Karin Schuler, Sebastian Cler Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
This is the problem. Stop being obsessed with IPv4, move to IPv6.
you can not move to ipv6. you can, and should, *add* ipv6. like it or not, the internet pretty much requires ipv4. randy
How dare you bring pragmatism and logic to this discussion??? I am shocked and horrified! Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours. From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> Date: Tuesday, 14 January 2025 at 18:53 To: Gert Doering <gert@space.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: [members-discuss] Re: Charging Scheme Task Force 2024 Meeting Minutes (10 December 2024) [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources.
This is the problem. Stop being obsessed with IPv4, move to IPv6.
you can not move to ipv6. you can, and should, *add* ipv6. like it or not, the internet pretty much requires ipv4. randy ----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
Il 14/01/2025 04:01, sdy@a-n-t.ru ha scritto:
RIPE NCC needs to maintain its non-profit status (that's a requirement as a RIR) and it is desirable to keep the current tax agreement. Charging directly for resources would put this status at risk.
This is pure nonsense. RIPE is already charging AS numbers directly; why is it possible to charge AS numbers without affecting current "tax agreement" (*), but this would be impossible for IPV4?!?! About taxes: every european country has its own tax rules to limit or eliminate the tax impact of services provided to members of a non-profit; I guess this happens also in the Netherlands... (*) Is it really possible to sign a "tax agreement" with the tax authorities in the Netherland? In civilized countries, existing tax rules are usually respected, without the need for specific and particular agreements... -- Franco Tauceri *DomainRegister* m: 39.3483064202 w: https://DomainRegister.international <https://DomainRegister.international> e: franco.tauceri@domainregister.it -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
participants (11)
-
Brandon Butterworth -
Franco Tauceri -
Gert Doering -
Kai Siering -
Kaj Niemi -
Karla Liddle-White -
Michele Neylon - Blacknight -
Randy Bush -
sdy＠a-n-t.ru -
Sebastian-Becker＠telekom.de -
Sebastien Brossier