Re: [members-discuss] Discussion on LIRs from Donetsk Area
To clarify matters relating to the discussion on LIRs from the Donetsk area, I would like to remind you of the RIPE NCC Executive Board's resolution on continuity to service to all members. Please see the statement at:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/executive-boa... <https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/executive-board-resolution-on-continuity-of-services-to-all-ripe-ncc-members>
The RIPE NCC needs to confirm that an entity exists. Dutch law does not restrict the RIPE NCC from using any means it finds appropriate as proof that a legal entity exists. Documents issued by any national authority are considered to be sufficient proof.
Thank you for reply, it would be great to have some clarifications, if possible. Does it mean that organization "Center of Internet services in DNR” is exists in Russia? I cant find any references to it in the registries. Also it is not clear what is “national authority” here. Admin-c and tech-c numbers are with Ukrainian prefix. Lugansk is Ukrainian city. DNR itself is a terroristic organization which is located in the Donetsk area (not Lugansk, btw). Could you please check and confirm that all documents were checked properly? Thank you.
Hey all, While I agree RIPE NCC should not get involved in political debates, they should, however, make sure all papers are legal in the nation they were issued. As for disputed regions, I realize it is difficult and something perhaps not possible for RIPE NCC to decide who is right in an interim period, and just what a "nation" constitutes. We have to remember that changes in geography usually happens as a result of some sort of war or invasion, and is rarely something all involved parties agree on (except in post-war situations in the form of treaties - and even then, it's a compromise at best after having lost). However, having said that, it is curious I had to send about 25 documents back and forth while renaming a LIR and moving it to a different geographical location. The requirements for legal papers issued in both countries were a must then, and I had to submit information from various government entities in both nations. So I do wonder a bit why this was so easily pushed through. Was it perhaps pushed through simply BECAUSE the RIPE NCC felt it was a political issue and not something they should touch (so perhaps they didn't apply full scrutiny to documentation out of fear for touching the untouchables?). If I am entirely out of line or out of sync with procedures, I apologize. Just an observation. PS. To mailing list admin: please ignore my email in the queue sent from team@robtex.com. My subscribed email is johan@robtex.com, so naturally that bounced. DS. - Johan Boger, AS48285. On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Samorukov,Alexey <samm@net-art.cz> wrote:
To clarify matters relating to the discussion on LIRs from the Donetsk area, I would like to remind you of the RIPE NCC Executive Board's resolution on continuity to service to all members. Please see the statement at:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/executive-boa...
The RIPE NCC needs to confirm that an entity exists. Dutch law does not restrict the RIPE NCC from using any means it finds appropriate as proof that a legal entity exists. Documents issued by any national authority are considered to be sufficient proof.
Thank you for reply, it would be great to have some clarifications, if possible.
Does it mean that organization "Center of Internet services in DNR” is exists in Russia? I cant find any references to it in the registries. Also it is not clear what is “national authority” here. Admin-c and tech-c numbers are with Ukrainian prefix. Lugansk is Ukrainian city. DNR itself is a terroristic organization which is located in the Donetsk area (not Lugansk, btw). Could you please check and confirm that all documents were checked properly?
Thank you.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com
Johan, Where did you find political debates? As Alexey told you 1) There is no information about “Center of Internet services in DNR” (Центр интернет-поддержки ДНР) in http://egrul.nalog.ru/ database 2) Donetsk/Lugansk are located in Ukraine (not Russian Federation). If you have alternative point of view please provide us proofs. 3) When Sergey Myasoedov started this discussion the organization address was Lugansk, Russian Federation but now it’s updated to Donetsk, Russian Federation. Both addresses are invalid and don’t meet RIPE policies. I placed Andrea’s email to the CC to pay his attention to this issue.. because this situation is NOT normal and overshadow to RIPE NCC. Thanks. --- Andrei.
On 30 Jun 2015, at 13:45, Johan Boger <johan@robtex.com> wrote:
Hey all,
While I agree RIPE NCC should not get involved in political debates, they should, however, make sure all papers are legal in the nation they were issued. As for disputed regions, I realize it is difficult and something perhaps not possible for RIPE NCC to decide who is right in an interim period, and just what a "nation" constitutes. We have to remember that changes in geography usually happens as a result of some sort of war or invasion, and is rarely something all involved parties agree on (except in post-war situations in the form of treaties - and even then, it's a compromise at best after having lost).
However, having said that, it is curious I had to send about 25 documents back and forth while renaming a LIR and moving it to a different geographical location. The requirements for legal papers issued in both countries were a must then, and I had to submit information from various government entities in both nations. So I do wonder a bit why this was so easily pushed through. Was it perhaps pushed through simply BECAUSE the RIPE NCC felt it was a political issue and not something they should touch (so perhaps they didn't apply full scrutiny to documentation out of fear for touching the untouchables?).
If I am entirely out of line or out of sync with procedures, I apologize.
Just an observation.
PS. To mailing list admin: please ignore my email in the queue sent from team@robtex.com. My subscribed email is johan@robtex.com, so naturally that bounced. DS.
- Johan Boger, AS48285.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Samorukov,Alexey <samm@net-art.cz> wrote:
To clarify matters relating to the discussion on LIRs from the Donetsk area, I would like to remind you of the RIPE NCC Executive Board's resolution on continuity to service to all members. Please see the statement at:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/executive-boa...
The RIPE NCC needs to confirm that an entity exists. Dutch law does not restrict the RIPE NCC from using any means it finds appropriate as proof that a legal entity exists. Documents issued by any national authority are considered to be sufficient proof.
Thank you for reply, it would be great to have some clarifications, if possible.
Does it mean that organization "Center of Internet services in DNR” is exists in Russia? I cant find any references to it in the registries. Also it is not clear what is “national authority” here. Admin-c and tech-c numbers are with Ukrainian prefix. Lugansk is Ukrainian city. DNR itself is a terroristic organization which is located in the Donetsk area (not Lugansk, btw). Could you please check and confirm that all documents were checked properly?
Thank you.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Hello, RIPE-members. Donetsk/Lugansk are located in Ukraine. But... now when Ukraine cut off any communications to him, it's not better time for chicanery about addressess. Frases "DNR itself is a terroristic organization" and etc. it's real political games. I agree RIPE position in this question. Let's close this discussion. Mikhail Semenenko -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Andrei Kushnireuski Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 5:57 PM To: members-discuss@ripe.net Cc: Andrea Cima Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Discussion on LIRs from Donetsk Area Johan, Where did you find political debates? As Alexey told you 1) There is no information about “Center of Internet services in DNR” (Центр интернет-поддержки ДНР) in http://egrul.nalog.ru/ database 2) Donetsk/Lugansk are located in Ukraine (not Russian Federation). If you have alternative point of view please provide us proofs. 3) When Sergey Myasoedov started this discussion the organization address was Lugansk, Russian Federation but now it’s updated to Donetsk, Russian Federation. Both addresses are invalid and don’t meet RIPE policies. I placed Andrea’s email to the CC to pay his attention to this issue.. because this situation is NOT normal and overshadow to RIPE NCC. Thanks. --- Andrei.
On 30 Jun 2015, at 13:45, Johan Boger <johan@robtex.com> wrote:
Hey all,
While I agree RIPE NCC should not get involved in political debates, they should, however, make sure all papers are legal in the nation they were issued. As for disputed regions, I realize it is difficult and something perhaps not possible for RIPE NCC to decide who is right in an interim period, and just what a "nation" constitutes. We have to remember that changes in geography usually happens as a result of some sort of war or invasion, and is rarely something all involved parties agree on (except in post-war situations in the form of treaties - and even then, it's a compromise at best after having lost).
However, having said that, it is curious I had to send about 25 documents back and forth while renaming a LIR and moving it to a different geographical location. The requirements for legal papers issued in both countries were a must then, and I had to submit information from various government entities in both nations. So I do wonder a bit why this was so easily pushed through. Was it perhaps pushed through simply BECAUSE the RIPE NCC felt it was a political issue and not something they should touch (so perhaps they didn't apply full scrutiny to documentation out of fear for touching the untouchables?).
If I am entirely out of line or out of sync with procedures, I apologize.
Just an observation.
PS. To mailing list admin: please ignore my email in the queue sent from team@robtex.com. My subscribed email is johan@robtex.com, so naturally that bounced. DS.
- Johan Boger, AS48285.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Samorukov,Alexey <samm@net-art.cz> wrote:
To clarify matters relating to the discussion on LIRs from the Donetsk area, I would like to remind you of the RIPE NCC Executive Board's resolution on continuity to service to all members. Please see the statement at:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/execut ive-board-resolution-on-continuity-of-services-to-all-ripe-ncc-member s
The RIPE NCC needs to confirm that an entity exists. Dutch law does not restrict the RIPE NCC from using any means it finds appropriate as proof that a legal entity exists. Documents issued by any national authority are considered to be sufficient proof.
Thank you for reply, it would be great to have some clarifications, if possible.
Does it mean that organization "Center of Internet services in DNR” is exists in Russia? I cant find any references to it in the registries. Also it is not clear what is “national authority” here. Admin-c and tech-c numbers are with Ukrainian prefix. Lugansk is Ukrainian city. DNR itself is a terroristic organization which is located in the Donetsk area (not Lugansk, btw). Could you please check and confirm that all documents were checked properly?
Thank you.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
Semenenko, I am not at all disputing the need to use RU-addresses to get their postal mail. Seems entirely understandable. I also fully grasp the need to maintain Internet Services ESPECIALLY during a time like this. I just don't fully grasp how they managed to get the paperwork approved. That's what I'm curious about. Or, what sort of papers they used, and from where. That part does matter, to me. I will have to assume RIPE NCC had enough to feel comfortable with renaming the LIR. In my personal experience, it is somewhat hard to get them to feel comfortable with that, even if you try to move between two very not disputed areas, in mainstream EU-land. It still takes lots of paperwork. So, I guess I wonder what paperwork can really exist in that region at this point, that would be of equal quality and legitimacy to the list of papers I had to submit. As for the politics. I agree; that does not belong here. JB On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Semenenko Mikhail <MSemenenko@beeline.kz> wrote:
Hello, RIPE-members.
Donetsk/Lugansk are located in Ukraine. But... now when Ukraine cut off any communications to him, it's not better time for chicanery about addressess.
Frases "DNR itself is a terroristic organization" and etc. it's real political games.
I agree RIPE position in this question. Let's close this discussion.
Mikhail Semenenko
-----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Andrei Kushnireuski Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 5:57 PM To: members-discuss@ripe.net Cc: Andrea Cima Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Discussion on LIRs from Donetsk Area
Johan,
Where did you find political debates? As Alexey told you
1) There is no information about “Center of Internet services in DNR” (Центр интернет-поддержки ДНР) in http://egrul.nalog.ru/ database
2) Donetsk/Lugansk are located in Ukraine (not Russian Federation). If you have alternative point of view please provide us proofs.
3) When Sergey Myasoedov started this discussion the organization address was Lugansk, Russian Federation but now it’s updated to Donetsk, Russian Federation.
Both addresses are invalid and don’t meet RIPE policies.
I placed Andrea’s email to the CC to pay his attention to this issue.. because this situation is NOT normal and overshadow to RIPE NCC.
Thanks.
--- Andrei.
On 30 Jun 2015, at 13:45, Johan Boger <johan@robtex.com> wrote:
Hey all,
While I agree RIPE NCC should not get involved in political debates, they should, however, make sure all papers are legal in the nation they were issued. As for disputed regions, I realize it is difficult and something perhaps not possible for RIPE NCC to decide who is right in an interim period, and just what a "nation" constitutes. We have to remember that changes in geography usually happens as a result of some sort of war or invasion, and is rarely something all involved parties agree on (except in post-war situations in the form of treaties - and even then, it's a compromise at best after having lost).
However, having said that, it is curious I had to send about 25 documents back and forth while renaming a LIR and moving it to a different geographical location. The requirements for legal papers issued in both countries were a must then, and I had to submit information from various government entities in both nations. So I do wonder a bit why this was so easily pushed through. Was it perhaps pushed through simply BECAUSE the RIPE NCC felt it was a political issue and not something they should touch (so perhaps they didn't apply full scrutiny to documentation out of fear for touching the untouchables?).
If I am entirely out of line or out of sync with procedures, I apologize.
Just an observation.
PS. To mailing list admin: please ignore my email in the queue sent from team@robtex.com. My subscribed email is johan@robtex.com, so naturally that bounced. DS.
- Johan Boger, AS48285.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Samorukov,Alexey <samm@net-art.cz> wrote:
To clarify matters relating to the discussion on LIRs from the Donetsk area, I would like to remind you of the RIPE NCC Executive Board's resolution on continuity to service to all members. Please see the statement at:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/execut ive-board-resolution-on-continuity-of-services-to-all-ripe-ncc-member s
The RIPE NCC needs to confirm that an entity exists. Dutch law does not restrict the RIPE NCC from using any means it finds appropriate as proof that a legal entity exists. Documents issued by any national authority are considered to be sufficient proof.
Thank you for reply, it would be great to have some clarifications, if possible.
Does it mean that organization "Center of Internet services in DNR” is exists in Russia? I cant find any references to it in the registries. Also it is not clear what is “national authority” here. Admin-c and tech-c numbers are with Ukrainian prefix. Lugansk is Ukrainian city. DNR itself is a terroristic organization which is located in the Donetsk area (not Lugansk, btw). Could you please check and confirm that all documents were checked properly?
Thank you.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com
On 30 Jun 2015, at 14:24, Semenenko Mikhail <MSemenenko@beeline.kz> wrote:
Hello, RIPE-members.
Donetsk/Lugansk are located in Ukraine. But... now when Ukraine cut off any communications to him, it's not better time for chicanery about addressess.
Yes? Lets use London, France then. Its also not very easy to deliver post on Iceland. Under UN recognized borders and Russian/Ukrainian law this is Ukraine, please correct me if your data is different.
Frases "DNR itself is a terroristic organization" and etc. it's real political games.
It is not “political game”, but definition of the Ukrainian parliament. And it sounds like “ISIS internet technology center” inside Ukraine. Anyway, if you will try to read carefully, my question was very clear and about different things.
I agree RIPE position in this question. Let's close this discussion.
You are not a person which may “close this discussion”, sorry.
Dear Andrei and other colleagues, I fully agree with all three statements above. Not sure why you think I do not. I was saying I find it odd this was approved by RIPE NCC given the very tricky political situation and the questionable legality of any documents issued by the Russian Federation, concerning this region at this point in time. My personal opinion is best kept to myself, but let's say I'm not on Russia's side. I am, after all, Swedish. But, that's for another discussion, at another forum. I am not a political expert on the conflict, and even if I were, I am not here to discuss that. I also said that it was curious I had to provide an enormous amount of documents to transfer a LIR from one nation to another. It took a long time and lots of emails back and forth to get it approved. Now, that was between two nations in the EU, both fully acknowledged by all nations on the planet, and with documentation from both company registries in both nations, as well as all company documentation (incorporation certificates and other legal stuff). I wonder if they truly managed to get legal documentation produced by both parties in this dispute. I seriously doubt it. But, perhaps it is not a requirement. Perhaps it does not include new LIRs, and that there are more requirements for moving a LIR than there is for creating one. But that also sounds a bit skewed, to me personally. -JB On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Andrei Kushnireuski <ipas.master@gmail.com> wrote:
Johan,
Where did you find political debates? As Alexey told you
1) There is no information about “Center of Internet services in DNR” (Центр интернет-поддержки ДНР) in http://egrul.nalog.ru/ database
2) Donetsk/Lugansk are located in Ukraine (not Russian Federation). If you have alternative point of view please provide us proofs.
3) When Sergey Myasoedov started this discussion the organization address was Lugansk, Russian Federation but now it’s updated to Donetsk, Russian Federation.
Both addresses are invalid and don’t meet RIPE policies.
I placed Andrea’s email to the CC to pay his attention to this issue.. because this situation is NOT normal and overshadow to RIPE NCC.
Thanks.
--- Andrei.
On 30 Jun 2015, at 13:45, Johan Boger <johan@robtex.com> wrote:
Hey all,
While I agree RIPE NCC should not get involved in political debates, they should, however, make sure all papers are legal in the nation they were issued. As for disputed regions, I realize it is difficult and something perhaps not possible for RIPE NCC to decide who is right in an interim period, and just what a "nation" constitutes. We have to remember that changes in geography usually happens as a result of some sort of war or invasion, and is rarely something all involved parties agree on (except in post-war situations in the form of treaties - and even then, it's a compromise at best after having lost).
However, having said that, it is curious I had to send about 25 documents back and forth while renaming a LIR and moving it to a different geographical location. The requirements for legal papers issued in both countries were a must then, and I had to submit information from various government entities in both nations. So I do wonder a bit why this was so easily pushed through. Was it perhaps pushed through simply BECAUSE the RIPE NCC felt it was a political issue and not something they should touch (so perhaps they didn't apply full scrutiny to documentation out of fear for touching the untouchables?).
If I am entirely out of line or out of sync with procedures, I apologize.
Just an observation.
PS. To mailing list admin: please ignore my email in the queue sent from team@robtex.com. My subscribed email is johan@robtex.com, so naturally that bounced. DS.
- Johan Boger, AS48285.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Samorukov,Alexey <samm@net-art.cz> wrote:
To clarify matters relating to the discussion on LIRs from the Donetsk area, I would like to remind you of the RIPE NCC Executive Board's resolution on continuity to service to all members. Please see the statement at:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/executive-boa...
The RIPE NCC needs to confirm that an entity exists. Dutch law does not restrict the RIPE NCC from using any means it finds appropriate as proof that a legal entity exists. Documents issued by any national authority are considered to be sufficient proof.
Thank you for reply, it would be great to have some clarifications, if possible.
Does it mean that organization "Center of Internet services in DNR” is exists in Russia? I cant find any references to it in the registries. Also it is not clear what is “national authority” here. Admin-c and tech-c numbers are with Ukrainian prefix. Lugansk is Ukrainian city. DNR itself is a terroristic organization which is located in the Donetsk area (not Lugansk, btw). Could you please check and confirm that all documents were checked properly?
Thank you.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com
Not sure why, but "Swiss Network SA Technical Support" keeps creating tickets for me every time I email this list. And not only them. Do people have ticket system-addresses as their subscribed emails? "[image: Swiss Network SA] <http://www.swissnetwork.ch/> Johan Boger, Thank you for contacting our support team. A support ticket has now been opened for your request. You will be notified when a response is made by email. The details of your ticket are shown below. Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Discussion on LIRs from Donetsk Area Priority: Medium Status: Open You can view the ticket at any time at https://www.swissnetwork.ch/members/viewticket.php?tid=2015-06-30-296&c=2EndH9P0 " Am I doing something wrong, or are they in fact using a ticket system address to subscribe to here? -JB On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:27 PM, Johan Boger <johan@robtex.com> wrote:
Dear Andrei and other colleagues,
I fully agree with all three statements above. Not sure why you think I do not. I was saying I find it odd this was approved by RIPE NCC given the very tricky political situation and the questionable legality of any documents issued by the Russian Federation, concerning this region at this point in time. My personal opinion is best kept to myself, but let's say I'm not on Russia's side. I am, after all, Swedish. But, that's for another discussion, at another forum. I am not a political expert on the conflict, and even if I were, I am not here to discuss that.
I also said that it was curious I had to provide an enormous amount of documents to transfer a LIR from one nation to another. It took a long time and lots of emails back and forth to get it approved. Now, that was between two nations in the EU, both fully acknowledged by all nations on the planet, and with documentation from both company registries in both nations, as well as all company documentation (incorporation certificates and other legal stuff). I wonder if they truly managed to get legal documentation produced by both parties in this dispute. I seriously doubt it. But, perhaps it is not a requirement. Perhaps it does not include new LIRs, and that there are more requirements for moving a LIR than there is for creating one. But that also sounds a bit skewed, to me personally.
-JB
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Andrei Kushnireuski < ipas.master@gmail.com> wrote:
Johan,
Where did you find political debates? As Alexey told you
1) There is no information about “Center of Internet services in DNR” (Центр интернет-поддержки ДНР) in http://egrul.nalog.ru/ database
2) Donetsk/Lugansk are located in Ukraine (not Russian Federation). If you have alternative point of view please provide us proofs.
3) When Sergey Myasoedov started this discussion the organization address was Lugansk, Russian Federation but now it’s updated to Donetsk, Russian Federation.
Both addresses are invalid and don’t meet RIPE policies.
I placed Andrea’s email to the CC to pay his attention to this issue.. because this situation is NOT normal and overshadow to RIPE NCC.
Thanks.
--- Andrei.
On 30 Jun 2015, at 13:45, Johan Boger <johan@robtex.com> wrote:
Hey all,
While I agree RIPE NCC should not get involved in political debates, they should, however, make sure all papers are legal in the nation they were issued. As for disputed regions, I realize it is difficult and something perhaps not possible for RIPE NCC to decide who is right in an interim period, and just what a "nation" constitutes. We have to remember that changes in geography usually happens as a result of some sort of war or invasion, and is rarely something all involved parties agree on (except in post-war situations in the form of treaties - and even then, it's a compromise at best after having lost).
However, having said that, it is curious I had to send about 25 documents back and forth while renaming a LIR and moving it to a different geographical location. The requirements for legal papers issued in both countries were a must then, and I had to submit information from various government entities in both nations. So I do wonder a bit why this was so easily pushed through. Was it perhaps pushed through simply BECAUSE the RIPE NCC felt it was a political issue and not something they should touch (so perhaps they didn't apply full scrutiny to documentation out of fear for touching the untouchables?).
If I am entirely out of line or out of sync with procedures, I apologize.
Just an observation.
PS. To mailing list admin: please ignore my email in the queue sent from team@robtex.com. My subscribed email is johan@robtex.com, so naturally that bounced. DS.
- Johan Boger, AS48285.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Samorukov,Alexey <samm@net-art.cz> wrote:
To clarify matters relating to the discussion on LIRs from the Donetsk area, I would like to remind you of the RIPE NCC Executive Board's resolution on continuity to service to all members. Please see the statement at:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/executive-boa...
The RIPE NCC needs to confirm that an entity exists. Dutch law does not restrict the RIPE NCC from using any means it finds appropriate as
proof
that a legal entity exists. Documents issued by any national authority are considered to be sufficient proof.
Thank you for reply, it would be great to have some clarifications, if possible.
Does it mean that organization "Center of Internet services in DNR” is exists in Russia? I cant find any references to it in the registries. Also it is not clear what is “national authority” here. Admin-c and tech-c numbers are with Ukrainian prefix. Lugansk is Ukrainian city. DNR itself is a terroristic organization which is located in the Donetsk area (not Lugansk, btw). Could you please check and confirm that all documents were checked properly?
Thank you.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
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-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com
1. http://egrul.nalog.ru/ database contains not the entire list of organizations from Russia. There's must be only commercial organizations. “Center of Internet services in DNR” may be a non-profit organization. 2. Russian organization may have an office in Ukraine, as Ukrainian in Russia. There is nothing illegal. 3. Delivery of mail to these cities through Russia much easier than through Ukraine. On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 13:57:21 +0200 Andrei Kushnireuski <ipas.master@gmail.com> wrote:
Johan,
Where did you find political debates? As Alexey told you
1) There is no information about “Center of Internet services in DNR” (Центр интернет-поддержки ДНР) in http://egrul.nalog.ru/ database
2) Donetsk/Lugansk are located in Ukraine (not Russian Federation). If you have alternative point of view please provide us proofs.
3) When Sergey Myasoedov started this discussion the organization address was Lugansk, Russian Federation but now it’s updated to Donetsk, Russian Federation.
Both addresses are invalid and don’t meet RIPE policies.
I placed Andrea’s email to the CC to pay his attention to this issue.. because this situation is NOT normal and overshadow to RIPE NCC.
Thanks.
--- Andrei.
On 30 Jun 2015, at 13:45, Johan Boger <johan@robtex.com> wrote:
Hey all,
While I agree RIPE NCC should not get involved in political debates, they should, however, make sure all papers are legal in the nation they were issued. As for disputed regions, I realize it is difficult and something perhaps not possible for RIPE NCC to decide who is right in an interim period, and just what a "nation" constitutes. We have to remember that changes in geography usually happens as a result of some sort of war or invasion, and is rarely something all involved parties agree on (except in post-war situations in the form of treaties - and even then, it's a compromise at best after having lost).
However, having said that, it is curious I had to send about 25 documents back and forth while renaming a LIR and moving it to a different geographical location. The requirements for legal papers issued in both countries were a must then, and I had to submit information from various government entities in both nations. So I do wonder a bit why this was so easily pushed through. Was it perhaps pushed through simply BECAUSE the RIPE NCC felt it was a political issue and not something they should touch (so perhaps they didn't apply full scrutiny to documentation out of fear for touching the untouchables?).
If I am entirely out of line or out of sync with procedures, I apologize.
Just an observation.
PS. To mailing list admin: please ignore my email in the queue sent from team@robtex.com. My subscribed email is johan@robtex.com, so naturally that bounced. DS.
- Johan Boger, AS48285.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Samorukov,Alexey <samm@net-art.cz> wrote:
To clarify matters relating to the discussion on LIRs from the Donetsk area, I would like to remind you of the RIPE NCC Executive Board's resolution on continuity to service to all members. Please see the statement at:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/executive-boa...
The RIPE NCC needs to confirm that an entity exists. Dutch law does not restrict the RIPE NCC from using any means it finds appropriate as proof that a legal entity exists. Documents issued by any national authority are considered to be sufficient proof.
Thank you for reply, it would be great to have some clarifications, if possible.
Does it mean that organization "Center of Internet services in DNR” is exists in Russia? I cant find any references to it in the registries. Also it is not clear what is “national authority” here. Admin-c and tech-c numbers are with Ukrainian prefix. Lugansk is Ukrainian city. DNR itself is a terroristic organization which is located in the Donetsk area (not Lugansk, btw). Could you please check and confirm that all documents were checked properly?
Thank you.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
All of that may be true, Alexandr, but I would still like to review the documentation that made RIPE NCC go "this seems legit" ( of course I have no right to do so, I assume ). Because I very rarely succeed with that, even when I am undoubtedly legit in my requests. And if I succeed, it is after extensive paperwork-shuffling including lots of organizations and legal entities. This seems like a fairly similar scenario. Renaming the LIR, and thus effectively moving it. So, I assume they too had to provide tonnes of documentation from both RU and UA to justify the new RU-prefix. I just don't fully grasp what kind of documentation that can be. In that region. At this point in time. -JB On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Alexandr Popov <alexp@lec.tel> wrote:
1. http://egrul.nalog.ru/ database contains not the entire list of organizations from Russia. There's must be only commercial organizations. “Center of Internet services in DNR” may be a non-profit organization. 2. Russian organization may have an office in Ukraine, as Ukrainian in Russia. There is nothing illegal. 3. Delivery of mail to these cities through Russia much easier than through Ukraine.
On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 13:57:21 +0200 Andrei Kushnireuski <ipas.master@gmail.com> wrote:
Johan,
Where did you find political debates? As Alexey told you
1) There is no information about “Center of Internet services in DNR” (Центр интернет-поддержки ДНР) in http://egrul.nalog.ru/ database 2) Donetsk/Lugansk are located in Ukraine (not Russian Federation). If you have alternative point of view please provide us proofs.
3) When Sergey Myasoedov started this discussion the organization address was Lugansk, Russian Federation but now it’s updated to Donetsk, Russian Federation.
Both addresses are invalid and don’t meet RIPE policies.
I placed Andrea’s email to the CC to pay his attention to this issue.. because this situation is NOT normal and overshadow to RIPE NCC.
Thanks.
--- Andrei.
On 30 Jun 2015, at 13:45, Johan Boger <johan@robtex.com> wrote:
Hey all,
While I agree RIPE NCC should not get involved in political debates, they should, however, make sure all papers are legal in the nation they were issued. As for disputed regions, I realize it is difficult and something perhaps not possible for RIPE NCC to decide who is right in an interim period, and just what a "nation" constitutes. We have to remember that changes in geography usually happens as a result of some sort of war or invasion, and is rarely something all involved parties agree on (except in post-war situations in the form of treaties - and even then, it's a compromise at best after having lost). However, having said that, it is curious I had to send about 25 documents back and forth while renaming a LIR and moving it to a different geographical location. The requirements for legal papers issued in both countries were a must then, and I had to submit information from various government entities in both nations. So I do wonder a bit why this was so easily pushed through. Was it perhaps pushed through simply BECAUSE the RIPE NCC felt it was a political issue and not something they should touch (so perhaps they didn't apply full scrutiny to documentation out of fear for touching the untouchables?). If I am entirely out of line or out of sync with procedures, I apologize.
Just an observation. PS. To mailing list admin: please ignore my email in the queue sent from team@robtex.com. My subscribed email is johan@robtex.com, so naturally that bounced. DS. - Johan Boger, AS48285. On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Samorukov,Alexey <samm@net-art.cz> wrote:
To clarify matters relating to the discussion on LIRs from the Donetsk area, I would like to remind you of the RIPE NCC Executive Board's resolution on continuity to service to all members. Please see the statement at:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/executive-boa...
The RIPE NCC needs to confirm that an entity exists. Dutch law does not restrict the RIPE NCC from using any means it finds appropriate as proof that a legal entity exists. Documents issued by any national authority are considered to be sufficient proof.
Thank you for reply, it would be great to have some clarifications, if possible. Does it mean that organization "Center of Internet services in DNR” is exists in Russia? I cant find any references to it in the registries. Also it is not clear what is “national authority” here. Admin-c and tech-c numbers are with Ukrainian prefix. Lugansk is Ukrainian city. DNR itself is a terroristic organization which is located in the Donetsk area (not Lugansk, btw). Could you please check and confirm that all documents were checked properly? Thank you.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com w: http://www.robtex.com
On 30 Jun 2015, at 14:38, Alexandr Popov <alexp@lec.tel> wrote:
3. Delivery of mail to these cities through Russia much easier than through Ukraine.
Orly? Have you ever tried to deliver to Lugansk, Russia?
The RIPE FAQ [1] states that “Any legal entity or natural person can become a member of RIPE NCC,” and that “official registration papers are the trade register documents that prove your company is a registered legal entity, authorised to carry out business activities in your country.” The Black’s Law Dictionary (2nd Ed.) defines a Legal Entity as “A lawful or legally standing association, corporation, partnership, proprietorship, trust, or individual. Has legal capacity to (1) enter into agreements or contracts, (2) assume obligations, (3) incur and pay debts, (4) sue and be sued in its own right, and (5) to be accountable for illegal activities.” It is reasonable to assume that those capacities are enabled by the Government, in particular via registration of a Legal Entity within the corresponding institution of the said Government. Which Government exactly a Legal Entity should be registered by, then? I think it is reasonable to assume that the locality of the Government should be defined by the Boundaries of the administrative area (a country, for example) where the Legal Entity is registered. If a Legal Entity is located in Russian Federation then it has to be registered by the Government of the Russian Federation. What defines the Government's Boundaries then, often blurred by wars and disputes, as we all observe? For this purpose, examples can be provided for multiple options: 1) GADM [2] 2) Wikimedia Commons Atlas of the World [3] 3) Commercial providers, e.g. VDS, Esri, etc [4, 5] 4) International organizations, such as NATO, UN [6, 7] Thus, establishing the Boundary of a Government that is entitled to register a Legal Entity in one or another country within the RIPE region appears to be fully possible. If we consider ORG-OISI2-RIPE, the registration within RIPE is clearly corrupt, as with its address provided as is, the Russian Federation, according to its Boundaries defined above, does not have capacity to register Legal Entities in Lugansk and enable their capacities. This leads all of us to believe that the organization behind the ORG-OISI2-RIPE record is clearly NOT a Legal Entity, and, thus, may contradict RIPE’s policies. References [1] https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/info/faqs/faq-joining [2] http://www.gadm.org [3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_first-level_administrative_divis... [4] http://www.vdstech.com/world-data.aspx [5] http://www.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=d86e32ea12a64727b9e94d6f820123a2 [6] http://www.nato.int/nato-on-duty/ [7] http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/world.pdf Regards, Maxim Usatov, Founder and CTO * BusinessCom Networks On 6/30/15 13:45, Johan Boger wrote:
Hey all,
While I agree RIPE NCC should not get involved in political debates, they should, however, make sure all papers are legal in the nation they were issued. As for disputed regions, I realize it is difficult and something perhaps not possible for RIPE NCC to decide who is right in an interim period, and just what a "nation" constitutes. We have to remember that changes in geography usually happens as a result of some sort of war or invasion, and is rarely something all involved parties agree on (except in post-war situations in the form of treaties - and even then, it's a compromise at best after having lost).
However, having said that, it is curious I had to send about 25 documents back and forth while renaming a LIR and moving it to a different geographical location. The requirements for legal papers issued in both countries were a must then, and I had to submit information from various government entities in both nations. So I do wonder a bit why this was so easily pushed through. Was it perhaps pushed through simply BECAUSE the RIPE NCC felt it was a political issue and not something they should touch (so perhaps they didn't apply full scrutiny to documentation out of fear for touching the untouchables?).
If I am entirely out of line or out of sync with procedures, I apologize.
Just an observation.
PS. To mailing list admin: please ignore my email in the queue sent from team@robtex.com <mailto:team@robtex.com>. My subscribed email is johan@robtex.com <mailto:johan@robtex.com>, so naturally that bounced. DS.
- Johan Boger, AS48285.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Samorukov,Alexey <samm@net-art.cz <mailto:samm@net-art.cz>> wrote:
To clarify matters relating to the discussion on LIRs from the Donetsk area, I would like to remind you of the RIPE NCC Executive Board's resolution on continuity to service to all members. Please see the statement at:
https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/about-ripe-ncc-and-ripe/executive-boa...
The RIPE NCC needs to confirm that an entity exists. Dutch law does not restrict the RIPE NCC from using any means it finds appropriate as proof that a legal entity exists. Documents issued by any national authority are considered to be sufficient proof.
Thank you for reply, it would be great to have some clarifications, if possible.
Does it mean that organization "Center of Internet services in DNR” is exists in Russia? I cant find any references to it in the registries. Also it is not clear what is “national authority” here. Admin-c and tech-c numbers are with Ukrainian prefix. Lugansk is Ukrainian city. DNR itself is a terroristic organization which is located in the Donetsk area (not Lugansk, btw). Could you please check and confirm that all documents were checked properly?
Thank you.
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
-- Johan Boger, Project Manager (AS48285) e: johan@robtex.com <mailto:johan@robtex.com> w: http://www.robtex.com
---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
participants (6)
-
Alexandr Popov -
Andrei Kushnireuski -
Johan Boger -
Maxim Usatov -
Samorukov,Alexey -
Semenenko Mikhail