Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
Hello Is there a statistic of how many LIR:s would go to which bracket? Is there any statistic of usage of IP:s for a bit larger organizations? I think its a good way forward to somehow take allocated resources as base for fees. This is because i would hope that some organizations which would not use IP:s efficiently might reconsider their allocations. That is why i would even consider higher prices for larger allocations. Im not sure how it could be done so that if you have let say a company that has legacy IP:s of 100 000 + and it does not use them for ISP services but are just for own network needs, would start to reconsider their need for allocation. It might also be that this is more of a problem in ARIN region as they probably have more large allocations to private companies. But let say a industry company that in reality uses 5% of their IP:s and a bean counter would receive a invoice of 100 000 euros, he might start to question things đ But if there is many companies that have so called oversized allocations (non-ISP ie. industry companies) i would definately vote for more punising pricing for every IP allocated. But it might also be that im picturing a problem that in reality does not exists. I think if one is using IP:s for its customers (being ISP or similar service provider) its very hard to see that the price of IP:s would be too high on any scenario. There is probably some problem with pricing in that case đ I can see that ASN resources might be a different story. I also agree with comments that RIPE also needs to think about its budget in these hard times. So at the same time i would like them to check the expenses and increase fees to get organizations return part of allocations (i know this is a conflicting thing...) Maybe RIPE could even start a IP repurchase program đ ? Excess of membership fees would be used to pay some modest compensation for returning IP:s and then redistribute them to new LIR:s. This is also why i think that non-profit organizations should not get different pricing bracket as im my hopes price at some beautiful day would actually make every organization think how many IP:s they have. Also even if IP:s would costs 0,5 euros/IP/year it would still be quite modest amount for even largest allocations. Lets say German Telecom who seems to have around 30 million of them, it would only be 15 million a year. Thats nothing for them. But it would be problematic for RIPE to use all that money đ But if the amount would be let say 0,1 euros/IP/year no one with 100 000 IP allocation would care about the invoice... so no allocations would be returned... I am well aware that it might simply be impossible to get unused allocations back with money incentive but i would probably still vote for suggestions that even try to achieve it... So my vote goes for option 2 or if option to is revised to increase the price even more for larger allocations i will still vote for that. Br. Hans Govenius DevNet Oy -----Alkuperäinen viesti----- Lähettäjä: ncc-announce <ncc-announce-bounces@ripe.net> Puolesta Simon Jan Haytink Lähetetty: tiistai 7. maaliskuuta 2023 11.35 Vastaanottaja: ncc-announce@ripe.net Aihe: [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 Dear RIPE NCC members, We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCCâs members. To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: Model 1: A âone-LIR, one-feeâ model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. You can download the Excel sheet from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/mem... We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss@ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations I look forward to your input. Kind regards, Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC Summary 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 References Open House and Survey Results https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-cha... Presentation at General Meeting https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentation...
There is already a sizable market for renting or selling IP blocks where addresses are exchanged for currency. The buyers and sellers seem to be able to conclude transactions at a level of 30-50 USD/address. How would a second market, where the price is fixed and fraction of the primary market, be able to exist and thrive? Realistically, if you think someone wants to start paying 15M or 3M for addresses... well, this is the situation that I mentioned where people start asking what they're really getting for that kind of money and Nick disagreed ;) Kaj Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Hans Govenius <hans.govenius@devnet.fi> Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 6:02 PM To: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 Hello Is there a statistic of how many LIR:s would go to which bracket? Is there any statistic of usage of IP:s for a bit larger organizations? I think its a good way forward to somehow take allocated resources as base for fees. This is because i would hope that some organizations which would not use IP:s efficiently might reconsider their allocations. That is why i would even consider higher prices for larger allocations. Im not sure how it could be done so that if you have let say a company that has legacy IP:s of 100 000 + and it does not use them for ISP services but are just for own network needs, would start to reconsider their need for allocation. It might also be that this is more of a problem in ARIN region as they probably have more large allocations to private companies. But let say a industry company that in reality uses 5% of their IP:s and a bean counter would receive a invoice of 100 000 euros, he might start to question things đ But if there is many companies that have so called oversized allocations (non-ISP ie. industry companies) i would definately vote for more punising pricing for every IP allocated. But it might also be that im picturing a problem that in reality does not exists. I think if one is using IP:s for its customers (being ISP or similar service provider) its very hard to see that the price of IP:s would be too high on any scenario. There is probably some problem with pricing in that case đ I can see that ASN resources might be a different story. I also agree with comments that RIPE also needs to think about its budget in these hard times. So at the same time i would like them to check the expenses and increase fees to get organizations return part of allocations (i know this is a conflicting thing...) Maybe RIPE could even start a IP repurchase program đ ? Excess of membership fees would be used to pay some modest compensation for returning IP:s and then redistribute them to new LIR:s. This is also why i think that non-profit organizations should not get different pricing bracket as im my hopes price at some beautiful day would actually make every organization think how many IP:s they have. Also even if IP:s would costs 0,5 euros/IP/year it would still be quite modest amount for even largest allocations. Lets say German Telecom who seems to have around 30 million of them, it would only be 15 million a year. Thats nothing for them. But it would be problematic for RIPE to use all that money đ But if the amount would be let say 0,1 euros/IP/year no one with 100 000 IP allocation would care about the invoice... so no allocations would be returned... I am well aware that it might simply be impossible to get unused allocations back with money incentive but i would probably still vote for suggestions that even try to achieve it... So my vote goes for option 2 or if option to is revised to increase the price even more for larger allocations i will still vote for that. Br. Hans Govenius DevNet Oy -----Alkuperäinen viesti----- Lähettäjä: ncc-announce <ncc-announce-bounces@ripe.net> Puolesta Simon Jan Haytink Lähetetty: tiistai 7. maaliskuuta 2023 11.35 Vastaanottaja: ncc-announce@ripe.net Aihe: [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 Dear RIPE NCC members, We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCCâs members. To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: Model 1: A âone-LIR, one-feeâ model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. You can download the Excel sheet from: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmail%2Fmember-and-community-consultations%2Fmember-calculator-charging-scheme-2024.xlsx&data=05%7C01%7C%7C022939aa0baa492d7e2e08db20b7a3a2%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139745321391633%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ImCYM0OOJ3k47vMOKPL5h%2FHs0tfuH8yHB3uWD8fzczY%3D&reserved=0 We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss@ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmail%2Fmember-and-community-consultations&data=05%7C01%7C%7C022939aa0baa492d7e2e08db20b7a3a2%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139745321391633%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Z4X%2FnNQg1gRUEa5gP0y3wKILpnfWUb7L%2Fp13PucEe3w%3D&reserved=0 I look forward to your input. Kind regards, Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC Summary 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 References Open House and Survey Results https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmeetings%2Fopen-house%2Fripe-ncc-open-house-charging-scheme-principles&data=05%7C01%7C%7C022939aa0baa492d7e2e08db20b7a3a2%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139745321391633%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0Y1Gamz0%2B21clhnLuKOzQJTZcTCbl%2F1dSyZWZ7Q8pH8%3D&reserved=0 Presentation at General Meeting https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmeetings%2Fgm%2Fmeetings%2Fmay-2021%2Fdocumentation-and-archive%2Fripe-ncc-charging-scheme-discussion.pdf&data=05%7C01%7C%7C022939aa0baa492d7e2e08db20b7a3a2%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139745321391633%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pAk8hM423IY6mNFl58V2jLEMy%2FCBXQHVj5ygvBdK6c8%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss&data=05%7C01%7C%7C022939aa0baa492d7e2e08db20b7a3a2%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139745321391633%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Odh7z7idxiZm7dL0DB4w8YRNJeV0Xjh1aq4Xs0BwkZs%3D&reserved=0 Unsubscribe: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Fkajtzu%2540basen.net&data=05%7C01%7C%7C022939aa0baa492d7e2e08db20b7a3a2%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638139745321391633%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FRvqxO%2FjYy7Hw8b3OwykYr6fA2YOr14h%2FkRCc2iZMnc%3D&reserved=0
participants (2)
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Hans Govenius -
Kaj Niemi