Hi, With IPv4 running out and LIRs only being allowed final /22 in my view makes it unfair to new members who may need additional addresses. With some of the other LIRs having for example /19 unused makes it unfair for them to advertise their unused address space on the transfer service and want to charge up words of £8 per IP Address. Given the fact the IP Addresses is a public resource, I fail to see how it should be allowed for LIRs to make a profit out of unused space. There should be a policy and if the address space is not used / required, it must be handed back to the public pool of resources so can then be allocated to other LIRS as part of their annual membership. I even recall the Government sitting on "I believe" a /8 and then tried to sell this off to raise money. Again this should not be allowed. LIRS should NOT be able to make profit for selling a public resource. Regards Dave [http://www.3cxacademy.com/mod/certificate/pix/seals/3CX-Certified-Engineer.p...] Dave Benwell - 3CX Certified Professional [http://www.3cx-phone-system.co.uk/email-sig/Signature.png] [http://www.3cx-phone-system.co.uk/email-sig/image001.png] support@it-communicationsltd.co.uk<mailto:support@it-communicationsltd.co.uk> [http://www.3cx-phone-system.co.uk/email-sig/image003.png] www.it-communicationsltd.co.uk<http://www.it-communicationsltd.co.uk> [http://www.3cx-phone-system.co.uk/email-sig/image005.png] @IT Communications<https://twitter.com/ITCommsltd> [http://www.3cx-phone-system.co.uk/email-sig/image007.png] Facebook<http://www.facebook.com/pages/IT-Communications-LTD-3cx-support/173045309375315> Telephone: 01702 66 88 36 | Fax: 01702 66 88 37 Office: I.T Communications Limited, 20-24 High Street, Rayleigh, Essex, SS6 7EF [cid:image006.gif@01CE1059.1B386EA0] This email, including any attachment, is private and confidential. It should not be read, copied, disclosed or otherwise used by any person other than the intended recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately. I.T Communications Limited is a company registered in England, registered number 7418692. Registered office: I.T Communications Limited, Seedbed Business Centre, Vanguard Way, Shoeburyness, Essex, SS3 9QY
Hi!
Given the fact the IP Addresses is a public resource, I fail to see how it should be allowed for LIRs to make a profit out of unused space.
Because if you do not allow that market to happen in the open, there will be a grey or black market, and the fairness problem will not be solved. There is much more to say about it, but it already has been said by many sides many times, so let's not rehash this here. -- MfG/Best regards, Kurt Jaeger 4 years to go ! Dr.-Ing. Nepustil & Co. GmbH fon +49 7123 93006-0 pi@nepustil.net Rathausstr. 3 mob +49 171 3101372 72658 Bempflingen
Hello Dave, the IP Address Policy Working Group has a mailing list for this discussion, please go there. And please read the discussions we had on this list in the last few month and watch the videos from RIPE72 about this topic. Then write a policy proposal and send it to the APWG mailing list. Regards, Wilhelm Am 27.05.2016 um 10:34 schrieb David Benwell:
Hi,
With IPv4 running out and LIRs only being allowed final /22 in my view makes it unfair to new members who may need additional addresses.
With some of the other LIRs having for example /19 unused makes it unfair for them to advertise their unused address space on the transfer service and want to charge up words of £8 per IP Address.
Given the fact the IP Addresses is a public resource, I fail to see how it should be allowed for LIRs to make a profit out of unused space.
There should be a policy and if the address space is not used / required, it must be handed back to the public pool of resources so can then be allocated to other LIRS as part of their annual membership.
I even recall the Government sitting on “I believe” a /8 and then tried to sell this off to raise money. Again this should not be allowed. LIRS should NOT be able to make profit for selling a public resource.
Regards
Dave
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Hi David, I think you are referring to 51/8, which belongs to the UK government via the Department of Work and Pensions (the UK Ministry of Defence also has 25/8). Whilst not routed on the public internet (for want of a better term), a big chunk of 51/8 (~70%) is used internally on the UK government's private networks such as the PSN, but some unused chunks of the unused space were sold off last year. It's also worth noting that this is legacy space that predates the RIRs and so isn't really subject to any modern policies. There are plenty of similar sized legacy IPv4 blocks allocated to various world government organisations (mainly the US) and private companies, but you're not going to be able to recover them and even if you did they would only delay the inevitable for a little while. As others have said, you're never going to be able to stop such transfers happening (simple market forces), so it's much better to have them happen transparently in public under RIR policies with the details documented in the registry than have shady, undocumented backroom deals. This has all been rehashed several times before and I'm afraid that I can't see any reason that the conclusions would be any different this time, but if you have something new that will change things then by all means put together a policy proposal. Edward Dore Freethought Internet
On 27 May 2016, at 09:34, David Benwell <dave@it-communicationsltd.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,
With IPv4 running out and LIRs only being allowed final /22 in my view makes it unfair to new members who may need additional addresses.
With some of the other LIRs having for example /19 unused makes it unfair for them to advertise their unused address space on the transfer service and want to charge up words of £8 per IP Address.
Given the fact the IP Addresses is a public resource, I fail to see how it should be allowed for LIRs to make a profit out of unused space.
There should be a policy and if the address space is not used / required, it must be handed back to the public pool of resources so can then be allocated to other LIRS as part of their annual membership.
I even recall the Government sitting on “I believe” a /8 and then tried to sell this off to raise money. Again this should not be allowed. LIRS should NOT be able to make profit for selling a public resource.
Regards Dave
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There’s certainly been a lot of talk about IPv4, and it running out and has been for a very long time, and how it’s turned into a black market with people selling IP’s at ridiculous figures. We’re all up in arms about that but to be honest, it’s up to us to correct this situation. How do we do this? By adopting IPv6 more widely and more quickly. IPv6 is 20 years old this year, yet according to Google, only 10-11% of its visitors use IPv6. This is appalling. At my company, we’ve implemented IPv6 as a dual-stack solution. Every new customer we add gets IPv6 whether they ask for it or not. We also have a project to IPv6-ise all our existing customers, because I feel it’s really important to adopt IPv6 to avoid all these IPv4 complications and issues. IPv6 is easy people, don’t be afraid of it. Put it on all your servers. Make your websites support it. We, as network administrators, have a responsibility to the world to lead by example and utilize IPv6 to its fullest. It’s not going to resolve the IPv4 issues that we have today, but the more we do, the closer we get ourselves to a final solution – no more IPv4. Nowadays, when I talk to customers, or even other technical people, I refer to IP – and legacy IP. We all need to have the same mind-set. Best Regards [Netscenario] Lester Clayton Technical Manager Netscenario AS Fridtjof Nansens Gate 19C 3722 Skien Norway Mobile: +47 35 12 29 68 E-mail: lester@netscenario.no<mailto://lester@netscenario.no> www.netscenario.no<http://www.netscenario.no/> *************************************************************************************** e-posten er kontrollert for virus p� vegne av Netscenario, med sikkerhet fra Comendo! ***************************************************************************************
Hi I'm rather new here and i don't know the past discussions. Wouldn't it be better to force ipv6 adoption? I think that's the only way to solve the problems with ipv4, from it's high price to it's scarcity and inequality. Best Regards, Bogdan Ionescu https://www.host.ag On 5/27/2016 12:50 PM, Host Master wrote:
There’s certainly been a lot of talk about IPv4, and it running out and has been for a very long time, and how it’s turned into a black market with people selling IP’s at ridiculous figures. We’re all up in arms about that but to be honest, it’s up to us to correct this situation. How do we do this? By adopting IPv6 more widely and more quickly. IPv6 is 20 years old this year, yet according to Google, only 10-11% of its visitors use IPv6. This is appalling. At my company, we’ve implemented IPv6 as a dual-stack solution. Every new customer we add gets IPv6 whether they ask for it or not. We also have a project to IPv6-ise all our existing customers, because I feel it’s really important to adopt IPv6 to avoid all these IPv4 complications and issues.
IPv6 is easy people, don’t be afraid of it. Put it on all your servers. Make your websites support it. We, as network administrators, have a responsibility to the world to lead by example and utilize IPv6 to its fullest. It’s not going to resolve the IPv4 issues that we have today, but the more we do, the closer we get ourselves to a final solution – no more IPv4.
Nowadays, when I talk to customers, or even other technical people, I refer to IP – and legacy IP. We all need to have the same mind-set.
Best Regards
Netscenario
*Lester Clayton*
Technical Manager
*Netscenario AS*
Fridtjof Nansens Gate 19C
3722 Skien
Norway
Mobile: +47 35 12 29 68
E-mail: lester@netscenario.no <mailto://lester@netscenario.no>
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Please Please look at the working group email discussion archive before starting this endless discussion again. Kind Regards, Dom uk.clouvider -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Host.AG Sent: 27 May 2016 11:08 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] IPV4 Addresses Hi I'm rather new here and i don't know the past discussions. Wouldn't it be better to force ipv6 adoption? I think that's the only way to solve the problems with ipv4, from it's high price to it's scarcity and inequality. Best Regards, Bogdan Ionescu https://www.host.ag On 5/27/2016 12:50 PM, Host Master wrote:
There's certainly been a lot of talk about IPv4, and it running out and has been for a very long time, and how it's turned into a black market with people selling IP's at ridiculous figures. We're all up in arms about that but to be honest, it's up to us to correct this situation. How do we do this? By adopting IPv6 more widely and more quickly. IPv6 is 20 years old this year, yet according to Google, only 10-11% of its visitors use IPv6. This is appalling. At my company, we've implemented IPv6 as a dual-stack solution. Every new customer we add gets IPv6 whether they ask for it or not. We also have a project to IPv6-ise all our existing customers, because I feel it's really important to adopt IPv6 to avoid all these IPv4 complications and issues.
IPv6 is easy people, don't be afraid of it. Put it on all your servers. Make your websites support it. We, as network administrators, have a responsibility to the world to lead by example and utilize IPv6 to its fullest. It's not going to resolve the IPv4 issues that we have today, but the more we do, the closer we get ourselves to a final solution - no more IPv4.
Nowadays, when I talk to customers, or even other technical people, I refer to IP - and legacy IP. We all need to have the same mind-set.
Best Regards
Netscenario
*Lester Clayton*
Technical Manager
*Netscenario AS*
Fridtjof Nansens Gate 19C
3722 Skien
Norway
Mobile: +47 35 12 29 68
E-mail: lester@netscenario.no <mailto://lester@netscenario.no>
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Hi, Forcing IPv6 on all users is not an option. If just there was an simple "extension" on IPv4 on the other hand .... Imho also some level of scarcity is beneficial, IPs don't get "wasted" like in the days of old and all IPs are considered valuable. However, i am against the price gouging some operators do. -Aleksi Ursin Magna Capax Finland On 27.5.2016 13:08, Host.AG wrote:
Hi
I'm rather new here and i don't know the past discussions. Wouldn't it be better to force ipv6 adoption? I think that's the only way to solve the problems with ipv4, from it's high price to it's scarcity and inequality.
Best Regards, Bogdan Ionescu https://www.host.ag
On 5/27/2016 12:50 PM, Host Master wrote:
There’s certainly been a lot of talk about IPv4, and it running out and has been for a very long time, and how it’s turned into a black market with people selling IP’s at ridiculous figures. We’re all up in arms about that but to be honest, it’s up to us to correct this situation. How do we do this? By adopting IPv6 more widely and more quickly. IPv6 is 20 years old this year, yet according to Google, only 10-11% of its visitors use IPv6. This is appalling. At my company, we’ve implemented IPv6 as a dual-stack solution. Every new customer we add gets IPv6 whether they ask for it or not. We also have a project to IPv6-ise all our existing customers, because I feel it’s really important to adopt IPv6 to avoid all these IPv4 complications and issues.
IPv6 is easy people, don’t be afraid of it. Put it on all your servers. Make your websites support it. We, as network administrators, have a responsibility to the world to lead by example and utilize IPv6 to its fullest. It’s not going to resolve the IPv4 issues that we have today, but the more we do, the closer we get ourselves to a final solution – no more IPv4.
Nowadays, when I talk to customers, or even other technical people, I refer to IP – and legacy IP. We all need to have the same mind-set.
Best Regards
Netscenario
*Lester Clayton*
Technical Manager
*Netscenario AS*
Fridtjof Nansens Gate 19C
3722 Skien
Norway
Mobile: +47 35 12 29 68
E-mail: lester@netscenario.no <mailto://lester@netscenario.no>
*www.netscenario.no* <http://www.netscenario.no/>
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Hi David, it is rather simple - no regulation could works better than free market. Implement simple policy for anyone to pay for each /24 (and we can start on actual "black market" price cast for 3-4 years) and you will see how many LIR will return unused space quickly. Otherwise you just try to achieve impossible. No artificial regulation will work in conditions, where there is limited number of resources - people are very creative in finding the ways how to bend any rule, if they need to. And such policy is also really fair: more resources you have (more income you can generate on them), more you have to pay for - in linear way. With growing number of small LIRs (aka /22 LIRs), it is just mater of time, when these new LIRs will realize, that: - they have voting rights and they have same vote like the "old big ones" - they pay much more per resource than "old big ones" - and they will finally vote for this policy, whatever dinosaurs thinks :-) - the last IPv4 space run-out could just accelerate this So to your question - if someone keeps unused resource to speculate on it or just to have future reserve - let him do it, but he should pay it's market price (lets say for now 1000USD per /24 per year). Believe me, that no RIPE audit will work better than this rather simple billing policy. P.S.: ISP's in my country happily charge customers 4USD per month for one public IPv4 (so even with 1000USD per /24 per year they will still get~ 1200% profit, so please don't argue that it is overpriced). Kind regards Dominik On 5/27/2016 10:34 AM, David Benwell wrote:
Hi,
With IPv4 running out and LIRs only being allowed final /22 in my view makes it unfair to new members who may need additional addresses.
With some of the other LIRs having for example /19 unused makes it unfair for them to advertise their unused address space on the transfer service and want to charge up words of £8 per IP Address.
Given the fact the IP Addresses is a public resource, I fail to see how it should be allowed for LIRs to make a profit out of unused space.
There should be a policy and if the address space is not used / required, it must be handed back to the public pool of resources so can then be allocated to other LIRS as part of their annual membership.
I even recall the Government sitting on “I believe” a /8 and then tried to sell this off to raise money. Again this should not be allowed. LIRS should NOT be able to make profit for selling a public resource.
Regards
Dave
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participants (9)
-
Aleksi Ursin -
David Benwell -
Dominik Nowacki -
Dominik Strnad -
Edward Dore -
Host Master -
Host.AG -
Kurt Jaeger -
Wilhelm Boeddinghaus