Questions about the published Draft Agenda and Supporting Documents
Dear Hans Petter, Thank you for providing the supporting documents for the GM in Rome. Before we are going to be in Rome, I have a question for you and I cc:'ed the member-discuss ML, as I'm sure some other members might also have a couple questions on the following topic. I would like to ask you, how the RIPE NCC thought it was a great slide to present just a 2Milj Euro budget cut .. as if it was the best it could do .. given that it was stated on the last GM .. that it wasn't going to increase the budget .. And with the inflation, basically what that means .. you need to cut cost and cut hard ... So I would assume that the Director of the NCC .. would see this as an opportunity ... and discuss with management and staff, what is excessive .. and where can we 'kill our darlings' ... As for any writer that needs to do proper editing of a long novel .. I get the feeling that you didn't went/wanted to go through that process .. not as fierce as that the membership have suggested you to do .. And I would suggest that this budget document, need some serious editing ... One of the reasons for my disbelieve that you did that process already properly .. is that if I see an IT spend of 7.6 milj. Euro (2023 ) and you proudly present that the IT spend for 2024 is going to be 7.4 milj Euro .. Either you have a HUGE technical debt that you can't manage .. or you didn't went head to head with your CTO / IT Director ... and stopped asking for more cuts until he actually sad in your office crying in despair. Just an example ... If I'm correct, the RIPE NCC is currently in a datacenter facility in Amsterdam .. with roughly 80 cabinets filled with $random equipment, almost half of that (most likely as my gut feeling is ) to store and hold every single ICMP ping/trace life on disk etc.. since the conception of the Atlas project.. And the best you can come back to the community is .. we've managed to reduce the cost of Atlas with 50.000 euro p/yr ? The proper question to ask is, do we need every freaking completed test to store that into infinity on spinning disks .. because we never asked the community if we can just through away every PING test result after 60 days . and save 20 cabinets in storage, equipment and power usage. Who are you kidding ... And that colocation / hw cost is next to the already half milj. Euro charge for the public cloud (AWS) already (per year..) So I seriously wonder if you asked the right questions instead of just tried to maintain the status quo ... One of those 'services' that I seriously think that the NCC should step away from .. is providing 'secondary' DNS server for reverse dns .. I mean .. come on .. how hard is that for the community to manage that by themselves .. and just because the NCC did that since the conception of the NCC ( or at least longer than I can remember ) .. is that still something that people use and expect the NCC to provide ? It might be good suggestion to setup an impartial task force / audit team.. reporting to the Executive Board (EB) .. that does (IT) spending audits .. looking for projects that are WAY over budgets, technical debt, overspending due to historic reasoning etc.. These should be externals to the RIPE NCC (staff), but with lots of different views and know how to spot a pet project when they see one .Or project, because we always did it that way. And then report to the EB with suggestions on how to act on it. I think it is then up to the EB, to discuss those findings internally and decide to have the discussion with the RIPE NCC Management on how to change and reduce the technical debt and how to actual cut cost. I have a gut feeling that the EB isn't getting all the information during the EB meetings or during the follow up's or it takes AGES to obtain the information or it is based on consolidated info, with 3 layers of management cutting and rewriting in between. The "Kill Your Darlings Audit Team" ( KYDAT ), should be the fresh look, to see if the NCC is still doing the right things .. and if the RIPE NCC management is managing towards a more agile and leaner future. This doesn't mean .. let's host everything at the public cloud and see how long the credit card keeps clearing .. it means that common sense with eye's from the outside of the RIPE NCC, might help to provide a better insight. The benefit of KYDAT is that they aren't 'burdened' with employee politics or with smoke and mirrors of certain management that is withholding / stalling documents of how bad it really is .. they will look for themselves .. and report and suggest. I don't envy the role that you have been tasked with ... But I was expecting something more serious .. Regards, Erik Bais
Hello, RIPE community There is some sense in Eric's judgment. These theses and arguments are worth considering. 01.11.2023 21:15, Erik Bais:
Dear Hans Petter,
Thank you for providing the supporting documents for the GM in Rome.
Before we are going to be in Rome, I have a question for you and I cc:'ed the member-discuss ML, as I'm sure some other members might also have a couple questions on the following topic.
I would like to ask you, how the RIPE NCC thought it was a great slide to present just a 2Milj Euro budget cut .. as if it was the best it could do .. given that it was stated on the last GM .. that it wasn't going to increase the budget .. And with the inflation, basically what that means .. you need to cut cost and cut hard ...
So I would assume that the Director of the NCC .. would see this as an opportunity ... and discuss with management and staff, what is excessive .. and where can we 'kill our darlings' ...
As for any writer that needs to do proper editing of a long novel .. I get the feeling that you didn't went/wanted to go through that process .. not as fierce as that the membership have suggested you to do .. And I would suggest that this budget document, need some serious editing ...
One of the reasons for my disbelieve that you did that process already properly .. is that if I see an IT spend of 7.6 milj. Euro (2023 ) and you proudly present that the IT spend for 2024 is going to be 7.4 milj Euro ..
Either you have a HUGE technical debt that you can't manage .. or you didn't went head to head with your CTO / IT Director ... and stopped asking for more cuts until he actually sad in your office crying in despair.
Just an example ... If I'm correct, the RIPE NCC is currently in a datacenter facility in Amsterdam .. with roughly 80 cabinets filled with $random equipment, almost half of that (most likely as my gut feeling is ) to store and hold every single ICMP ping/trace life on disk etc.. since the conception of the Atlas project..
And the best you can come back to the community is .. we've managed to reduce the cost of Atlas with 50.000 euro p/yr ? The proper question to ask is, do we need every freaking completed test to store that into infinity on spinning disks .. because we never asked the community if we can just through away every PING test result after 60 days . and save 20 cabinets in storage, equipment and power usage.
Who are you kidding ...
And that colocation / hw cost is next to the already half milj. Euro charge for the public cloud (AWS) already (per year..)
So I seriously wonder if you asked the right questions instead of just tried to maintain the status quo ...
One of those 'services' that I seriously think that the NCC should step away from .. is providing 'secondary' DNS server for reverse dns .. I mean .. come on .. how hard is that for the community to manage that by themselves .. and just because the NCC did that since the conception of the NCC ( or at least longer than I can remember ) .. is that still something that people use and expect the NCC to provide ?
It might be good suggestion to setup an impartial task force / audit team.. reporting to the Executive Board (EB) .. that does (IT) spending audits .. looking for projects that are WAY over budgets, technical debt, overspending due to historic reasoning etc.. These should be externals to the RIPE NCC (staff), but with lots of different views and know how to spot a pet project when they see one .Or project, because we always did it that way. And then report to the EB with suggestions on how to act on it.
I think it is then up to the EB, to discuss those findings internally and decide to have the discussion with the RIPE NCC Management on how to change and reduce the technical debt and how to actual cut cost.
I have a gut feeling that the EB isn't getting all the information during the EB meetings or during the follow up's or it takes AGES to obtain the information or it is based on consolidated info, with 3 layers of management cutting and rewriting in between.
The "Kill Your Darlings Audit Team" ( KYDAT ), should be the fresh look, to see if the NCC is still doing the right things .. and if the RIPE NCC management is managing towards a more agile and leaner future.
This doesn't mean .. let's host everything at the public cloud and see how long the credit card keeps clearing .. it means that common sense with eye's from the outside of the RIPE NCC, might help to provide a better insight.
The benefit of KYDAT is that they aren't 'burdened' with employee politics or with smoke and mirrors of certain management that is withholding / stalling documents of how bad it really is .. they will look for themselves .. and report and suggest.
I don't envy the role that you have been tasked with ...
But I was expecting something more serious ..
Regards, Erik Bais
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Hi, First, I think it is important to note that something was done. They did reduce the expenditure by 3.8% (budgeted 2023 vs forecasted 2023). Could they have reduced it more? Probably, but by how much more is debatable. What has been said is "without affecting current services", and management probably knows (or should know) better than we who are outside the organization. Second, NCC is not an organization in [real] financial distress by any measure, either. NCC has plenty of runway to figure out what to do and where to go from where it is now. The important thing is to start somewhere and improve. Third, "we" need to remember that NCC is an employer of approx. 195 give or take a few people + contractors. From previous Dutch experience I know that the use of contractors is very common over there even on long-term contracts. Companies tend to reduce these, too, first. Realistically, such an organization cannot, on a whim, lay off people in NL which is what it really amounts to. I mean, even if that would be the membership's collective desire. Even if it were possible, it's not one of the greatest ideas as sit will affect the whole organization in terms of motivation, retention, services, etc. One tends to do such things only if the alternative is going out of business. In this case, currently, it is not. During the openhouse event yesterday, I observed that one of NCC's problems seems to be that it would like to do "something for everyone". Because of this there will always be stakeholders - direct, indirect, paying, non-paying, etc. or however you want to classify them. This of course is very idealistic and perhaps slightly simplified but it tends generally to lead to a situation where all initiatives need to be (= are) funded somehow. It can also lead to what some, including myself, call mission creep or expansion of goals beyond their original remit. The "something for everyone" concept will probably need to be adjusted somewhat unless the membership wants to pay more in membership fees. Based on last spring, probably not but on the other hand only 12-15% of LIRs cast a vote. Many members in the spring weren't too keen on getting hit by higher fees for exactly the same service myself included. I also do not think the indirect, currently non-paying stakeholders are interested in paying full fare. As for your example of reverse DNS, well, NCC needs to have some kind of DNS servers for their zones or alternatively outsource them to somewhere else. Most of this seems to be automated through ripedb so really the implementation cost was paid ages ago. Now, many of us on this list have probably designed authoritative high-query rate DNS servers and might agree that it is not a very resource intensive thing to have around. They're also relatively low maintenance by themselves. I doubt that the incremental cost of hosting one extra reverse zone is significant. But if you outsource this to some cloud anycast constellation you're suddenly paying per query (= cost is variable) rather than for a network port, some power, rack space and the servers whether through leasing or paid-up front (= cost is pretty much fixed and shared across many other services). Also, the use value is significant for owned assets rather than cloud where the residual value is zero once you stop paying. But this is a good example of something which is important to some stakeholders but not others. :) To me, the draft plan and budget is rather high level, as it is supposed to be. Similarly, to me it is rather difficult to go and say off the cuff what is useful or where something could be reduced without going into deeper depth than what the document provides. Thus, any constructive criticism is also going to be on a very high level as well. Perhaps the easiest would be to look at contributions to external organizations, for example 400k+320k to ICANN, 50k for ISOC platinum... I mean, ICANN has about half a billion (yes, you read it right) and ISOC about 120M+ USD in assets. ICANN could do what it does without any of the RIRs paying them anything. As a member it is very unclear to me why "we" need to sponsor such organizations and what NCC really gets for the expenditure and how it translates into concrete benefits for the membership. I am happy to be educated about that, though 😉 Kaj ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 21:15 To: Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce@ripe.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: [members-discuss] Questions about the published Draft Agenda and Supporting Documents [You don't often get email from ebais@a2b-internet.com. Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ] Dear Hans Petter, Thank you for providing the supporting documents for the GM in Rome. Before we are going to be in Rome, I have a question for you and I cc:'ed the member-discuss ML, as I'm sure some other members might also have a couple questions on the following topic. I would like to ask you, how the RIPE NCC thought it was a great slide to present just a 2Milj Euro budget cut .. as if it was the best it could do .. given that it was stated on the last GM .. that it wasn't going to increase the budget .. And with the inflation, basically what that means .. you need to cut cost and cut hard ... So I would assume that the Director of the NCC .. would see this as an opportunity ... and discuss with management and staff, what is excessive .. and where can we 'kill our darlings' ... As for any writer that needs to do proper editing of a long novel .. I get the feeling that you didn't went/wanted to go through that process .. not as fierce as that the membership have suggested you to do .. And I would suggest that this budget document, need some serious editing ... One of the reasons for my disbelieve that you did that process already properly .. is that if I see an IT spend of 7.6 milj. Euro (2023 ) and you proudly present that the IT spend for 2024 is going to be 7.4 milj Euro .. Either you have a HUGE technical debt that you can't manage .. or you didn't went head to head with your CTO / IT Director ... and stopped asking for more cuts until he actually sad in your office crying in despair. Just an example ... If I'm correct, the RIPE NCC is currently in a datacenter facility in Amsterdam .. with roughly 80 cabinets filled with $random equipment, almost half of that (most likely as my gut feeling is ) to store and hold every single ICMP ping/trace life on disk etc.. since the conception of the Atlas project.. And the best you can come back to the community is .. we've managed to reduce the cost of Atlas with 50.000 euro p/yr ? The proper question to ask is, do we need every freaking completed test to store that into infinity on spinning disks .. because we never asked the community if we can just through away every PING test result after 60 days . and save 20 cabinets in storage, equipment and power usage. Who are you kidding ... And that colocation / hw cost is next to the already half milj. Euro charge for the public cloud (AWS) already (per year..) So I seriously wonder if you asked the right questions instead of just tried to maintain the status quo ... One of those 'services' that I seriously think that the NCC should step away from .. is providing 'secondary' DNS server for reverse dns .. I mean .. come on .. how hard is that for the community to manage that by themselves .. and just because the NCC did that since the conception of the NCC ( or at least longer than I can remember ) .. is that still something that people use and expect the NCC to provide ? It might be good suggestion to setup an impartial task force / audit team.. reporting to the Executive Board (EB) .. that does (IT) spending audits .. looking for projects that are WAY over budgets, technical debt, overspending due to historic reasoning etc.. These should be externals to the RIPE NCC (staff), but with lots of different views and know how to spot a pet project when they see one .Or project, because we always did it that way. And then report to the EB with suggestions on how to act on it. I think it is then up to the EB, to discuss those findings internally and decide to have the discussion with the RIPE NCC Management on how to change and reduce the technical debt and how to actual cut cost. I have a gut feeling that the EB isn't getting all the information during the EB meetings or during the follow up's or it takes AGES to obtain the information or it is based on consolidated info, with 3 layers of management cutting and rewriting in between. The "Kill Your Darlings Audit Team" ( KYDAT ), should be the fresh look, to see if the NCC is still doing the right things .. and if the RIPE NCC management is managing towards a more agile and leaner future. This doesn't mean .. let's host everything at the public cloud and see how long the credit card keeps clearing .. it means that common sense with eye's from the outside of the RIPE NCC, might help to provide a better insight. The benefit of KYDAT is that they aren't 'burdened' with employee politics or with smoke and mirrors of certain management that is withholding / stalling documents of how bad it really is .. they will look for themselves .. and report and suggest. I don't envy the role that you have been tasked with ... But I was expecting something more serious .. Regards, Erik Bais _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cb993b2aa37d246fd0d2008dbdb0f0e77%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638344629940248369%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C7000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nPw190eVc0AiPshLnW4PqWYyJeAuZ6psccpTuu5fx50%3D&reserved=0<https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss> Unsubscribe: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Fkajtzu%2540basen.net&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cb993b2aa37d246fd0d2008dbdb0f0e77%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638344629940248369%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C7000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3Jwz8So%2FxQA3iwJMEpn%2BDJTg0nwuVQMf2ak85myd39c%3D&reserved=0<https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kajtzu%40basen.net>
Kaj ICANN and ISOC as well as some other organisations should be supported by RIPE. They might not be “perfect” but they are a large part of the reason why we are able to continue doing what we do without more regulation. At a technical level ICANN and IANA coordinate the allocation and management of names and numbers ie. IP addresses. The RIRs are not “obliged” to financially support ICANN (it’s NOT sponsorship), but they do so because they believe in the system (warts and all). The multistakeholder model of internet governance which we all benefit from is not perfect, but as long as it works and is supported then we hopefully won’t be regulated out of existence. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours.
Yes, however, if we are on the outside looking at reducing costs, I do not think it is terribly unfair to go and ask questions like what will one get for the amount spent on a line item, don't you agree? As for ISOC, the other RIRs seem to be in silver, bronze and copper categories which, I am guessing, have a lower cost than the highest category. Similarly, if ICANN had total revenue of 163 million dollars in 2022, mostly consisting of registry and registrar revenue (gTLDs), they really do not need any voluntary financial support from someone else who could use that money better themselves (or not spend it at all). Unless of course we are wrong, and it is some kind of pay to play fee. Then one should be entitled to ask what one receives. 🙂 Kaj ________________________________ From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2023 19:14 To: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu@basen.net>; Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com>; Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce@ripe.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: Questions about the published Draft Agenda and Supporting Documents You don't often get email from michele@blacknight.com. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Kaj ICANN and ISOC as well as some other organisations should be supported by RIPE. They might not be “perfect” but they are a large part of the reason why we are able to continue doing what we do without more regulation. At a technical level ICANN and IANA coordinate the allocation and management of names and numbers ie. IP addresses. The RIRs are not “obliged” to financially support ICANN (it’s NOT sponsorship), but they do so because they believe in the system (warts and all). The multistakeholder model of internet governance which we all benefit from is not perfect, but as long as it works and is supported then we hopefully won’t be regulated out of existence. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours.
Kaj I suspect we won’t be able to agree on this. If you try to find “ROI” in maintaining a free and open internet by supporting multistakeholder organisations (which includes RIPE) then you probably won’t be able to easily. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours. From: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu@basen.net> Date: Friday, 3 November 2023 at 07:14 To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com>, Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com>, Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce@ripe.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: Questions about the published Draft Agenda and Supporting Documents [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources. Yes, however, if we are on the outside looking at reducing costs, I do not think it is terribly unfair to go and ask questions like what will one get for the amount spent on a line item, don't you agree? As for ISOC, the other RIRs seem to be in silver, bronze and copper categories which, I am guessing, have a lower cost than the highest category. Similarly, if ICANN had total revenue of 163 million dollars in 2022, mostly consisting of registry and registrar revenue (gTLDs), they really do not need any voluntary financial support from someone else who could use that money better themselves (or not spend it at all). Unless of course we are wrong, and it is some kind of pay to play fee. Then one should be entitled to ask what one receives. 🙂 Kaj ________________________________ From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2023 19:14 To: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu@basen.net>; Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com>; Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce@ripe.net> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: Questions about the published Draft Agenda and Supporting Documents You don't often get email from michele@blacknight.com. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Kaj ICANN and ISOC as well as some other organisations should be supported by RIPE. They might not be “perfect” but they are a large part of the reason why we are able to continue doing what we do without more regulation. At a technical level ICANN and IANA coordinate the allocation and management of names and numbers ie. IP addresses. The RIRs are not “obliged” to financially support ICANN (it’s NOT sponsorship), but they do so because they believe in the system (warts and all). The multistakeholder model of internet governance which we all benefit from is not perfect, but as long as it works and is supported then we hopefully won’t be regulated out of existence. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours.
Kaj, Thanks for your thoughts on the budget. They are much appreciated, and you point to several important elements regarding the “rightsizing” of the cost structure. I would like to add that the budget is a rough plan for next year that we make long before the year starts, so we will always aim to do even better. You ask relevant questions regarding the contributions. Internet Society & IETF The reasoning behind the ISOC platinum membership has been to support the IETF on an ongoing basis. In recent years, the IETF Endowment and IETF Administration LLC have been established, and we have continued the membership at the Platinum level. We also do some joint activities with ISOC. In addition to the ISOC Platinum membership, we contribute 100K a year to the IETF Endowment for a period of 10 years following an Executive Board resolution to do so in 2016: https://www.ietf.org/endowment/ ICANN Contributions. The contribution to ICANN is split into two parts totalling 823 kUSD: 650 kUSD IANA Numbering Services 173 kUSD Voluntary Contributions The ICANN contribution and IANA Numbering services costs are split proportionately between the RIRs, so we estimate that the RIPE NCC will pay slightly less than 40% of this. Thus, a budget figure of 320 kEUR. The IANA Numbering Services is a commitment we have made through the Service Level Agreement for IANA numbering services: https://www.nro.net/sla-for-iana-numbering-services/ IANA reports their performance according to the Service Level Agreement every month: https://www.iana.org/performance/numbers The Voluntary Contribution to ICANN was put in place in the very early days of ICANN when the US Government funding of the IANA function at ISI at USC was at risk, and we have kept it ever since. Today, it is justified for ICANN's support to the Address Supporting Organisation. Numbers are an important part of ICANN's mission: https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/governance/bylaws-en/#article1 iii) Coordinates the allocation and assignment at the top-most level of Internet Protocol Numbers and Autonomous System Numbers. In service of its Mission, ICANN (A) provides registration services and open access for global number registries as requested by the Internet Engineering Task Force ("IETF") and the Regional Internet Registries ("RIRs"), and (B) facilitates the development of global number registry policies by the affected community and other related tasks as agreed with the RIRs. All of these contributions are made to support the Regional Internet Registry system and defend the bottom-up governance of the Internet that has served us so well. However, it is good to be clear on these matters, so we will update the draft activity plan to include the relevant information. Kind Regards, Hans Petter Holen Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer RIPE NCC
On 3 Nov 2023, at 08:14, Kaj Niemi <kajtzu@basen.net> wrote:
Yes, however, if we are on the outside looking at reducing costs, I do not think it is terribly unfair to go and ask questions like what will one get for the amount spent on a line item, don't you agree?
As for ISOC, the other RIRs seem to be in silver, bronze and copper categories which, I am guessing, have a lower cost than the highest category.
Similarly, if ICANN had total revenue of 163 million dollars in 2022, mostly consisting of registry and registrar revenue (gTLDs), they really do not need any voluntary financial support from someone else who could use that money better themselves (or not spend it at all). Unless of course we are wrong, and it is some kind of pay to play fee. Then one should be entitled to ask what one receives.
🙂
Kaj From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com <mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2023 19:14 To: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu@basen.net <mailto:kajtzu@basen.net>>; Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com <mailto:ebais@a2b-internet.com>>; Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce@ripe.net <mailto:hph+announce@ripe.net>> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> <members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>> Subject: Re: Questions about the published Draft Agenda and Supporting Documents
You don't often get email from michele@blacknight.com <mailto:michele@blacknight.com>. Learn why this is important <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Kaj
ICANN and ISOC as well as some other organisations should be supported by RIPE. They might not be “perfect” but they are a large part of the reason why we are able to continue doing what we do without more regulation. At a technical level ICANN and IANA coordinate the allocation and management of names and numbers ie. IP addresses. The RIRs are not “obliged” to financially support ICANN (it’s NOT sponsorship), but they do so because they believe in the system (warts and all). The multistakeholder model of internet governance which we all benefit from is not perfect, but as long as it works and is supported then we hopefully won’t be regulated out of existence.
Regards
Michele
-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845
I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours.
Hi, On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 11:44:59AM +0100, Hans Petter Holen wrote:
ICANN Contributions.
The contribution to ICANN is split into two parts totalling 823 kUSD:
650 kUSD IANA Numbering Services 173 kUSD Voluntary Contributions
This is, if I remember correctly, roughly 10% of the RIPE NCC yearly budget. Technical services done by IANA in the last few years should boil down to "maintain a list of resources handed out to RIRs" and "a few times a year, hand out a block of ASNs or an IPv6 /12". So, close to one million dollars for that? [..]
The Voluntary Contribution to ICANN was put in place in the very early days of ICANN when the US Government funding of the IANA function at ISI at USC was at risk, and we have kept it ever since. Today, it is justified for ICANN's support to the Address Supporting Organisation.
More questions need to be asked on that. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi Gert, You can find more details on the IANA function in the PTI Operating Plan and budget. https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/adopted-pti-op-budget-fy23-2021-... Sincerely, Hans Petter Holen Managing Director & Chief Executive Officer RIPE NCC
On 9 Nov 2023, at 12:01, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 11:44:59AM +0100, Hans Petter Holen wrote:
ICANN Contributions.
The contribution to ICANN is split into two parts totalling 823 kUSD:
650 kUSD IANA Numbering Services 173 kUSD Voluntary Contributions
This is, if I remember correctly, roughly 10% of the RIPE NCC yearly budget.
Technical services done by IANA in the last few years should boil down to "maintain a list of resources handed out to RIRs" and "a few times a year, hand out a block of ASNs or an IPv6 /12".
So, close to one million dollars for that?
[..]
The Voluntary Contribution to ICANN was put in place in the very early days of ICANN when the US Government funding of the IANA function at ISI at USC was at risk, and we have kept it ever since. Today, it is justified for ICANN's support to the Address Supporting Organisation.
More questions need to be asked on that.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi, On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 12:11:53PM +0100, Hans Petter Holen wrote:
You can find more details on the IANA function in the PTI Operating Plan and budget.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/adopted-pti-op-budget-fy23-2021-...
Maybe the paying stakeholders should start asking some questions... It's not like the NCC members are giving the NCC a free pass on all the moneys anymore. (I stand corrected, PTI budget is not 1 million, but 5 million... maybe I should just offer to take over IANA/PTI functions for just 4 million?) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Gert, Keep in mind that IANA maintains all technical parameter registries, and assigns all protocol numbers and technical parameters. For reasons of separation they have a standalone budget. One could argue that risk that required this separation are less today, but personally I think that they are perhaps even greater now than then. My personal view is that the contribution to IANA / ICANN probably is justified for RIPE NCC and its members. The alternatives might well be cheaper, but perhaps not as palatable. Best Regards, - kurtis - -- Kurt Erik Lindqvist, CEO T: +44 (0) 20 7645 3528 | www.linx.net<http://www.linx.net> [b8dd7c7e-5b7a-4bb3-bf55-4265639a41be]<https://www.linx.net/> London Internet Exchange Ltd (LINX) C/O WeWork, 2 Minister Court, London, EC3R 7BB, United Kingdom Registered in England number 3137929 [09f5285b-9bf5-4663-a1d5-f335264499f8]<https://twitter.com/linx_network>[0ab2af08-4510-4094-a068-c92129623c5c]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/linx>[34761a22-8ab1-4259-b5a4-c45509cfc94a]<https://www.facebook.com/LondonInternetExchange/>[591060a6-addb-47a4-a833-1c93e4b644f4]<https://www.youtube.com/user/LINXnetwork> From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Gert Doering <gert@space.net> Date: Thursday, 9 November 2023 at 11:21 To: Hans Petter Holen <hph@ripe.net> Cc: Gert Doring <gert@space.net>, Members-Discuss RIPE <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Questions about the published Draft Agenda and Supporting Documents Hi, On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 12:11:53PM +0100, Hans Petter Holen wrote:
You can find more details on the IANA function in the PTI Operating Plan and budget.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/adopted-pti-op-budget-fy23-2021-...
Maybe the paying stakeholders should start asking some questions... It's not like the NCC members are giving the NCC a free pass on all the moneys anymore. (I stand corrected, PTI budget is not 1 million, but 5 million... maybe I should just offer to take over IANA/PTI functions for just 4 million?) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi, On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 12:59:43PM +0000, Kurtis Lindqvist wrote:
Keep in mind that IANA maintains all technical parameter registries, and assigns all protocol numbers and technical parameters. For reasons of separation they have a standalone budget. One could argue that risk that required this separation are less today, but personally I think that they are perhaps even greater now than then.
My personal view is that the contribution to IANA / ICANN probably is justified for RIPE NCC and its members. The alternatives might well be cheaper, but perhaps not as palatable.
I do understand the importance of IANA. But I also see the amount of numbers that are being maintained, at least for the RIR system, and they hardly justify a multi-million US$ budget. But I can accept Lutz' reasoning for the existence of IANA / ICANN. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
* Gert Doering wrote:
The contribution to ICANN is split into two parts totalling 823 kUSD: [...] So, close to one million dollars for that?
The main purpose of ICANN is, to keep all kind of non-technical influences (government, law enforcement, intellectual property, moral attitude, organized crime^W^Wcommerce, ...) distant from the really working technical people. In order to reach this goal, ICANN is stuffed with processes, spans working groups and small teams, holds meetings (three times the year in person), reviews the already completed work, reviews the ongoing processes, and the future one by creating new working groups and more meetings. By including everybody and his dog, ICANN binds all interested parties in procedural activities without any hope of any relevant outcome. The main point is, that all those parties are now bounded and do not try to find other ways to aim their pressure to the technical community. Hence: Well spend money.
I should just offer to take over IANA/PTI functions for just 4 million?)
dr postel used to do it part time i like and use the iana. but it's not clear to me that they provide 1m/y of service to the ripe community. and they are funded by the icann, which has money up the wazoo. otoh, i do not enjoy the sport of micro-managing the ncc budget. i think hph and crew get the message, and are on a diet. and that the the NCC got an effectively instant 3-4% expense reduction on short notice in time of inflation is pretty impressive. randy
The internet was a lot less important back in the days of Postel… the number of domain extensions, IP addresses etc., would also have been a significantly smaller In any case as Hans Petter, Lutz and others have clearly articulated there are very good reasons why providing funding to ICANN et al makes sense and the alternatives are not palatable. But I do agree that micro-managing the NCC budget isn’t a good use of anyone’s time – they’ve made reductions which bucks the current trend. Now if only half our suppliers would do the same! Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours. From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> Date: Thursday, 9 November 2023 at 14:21 To: Gert Doering <gert@space.net> Cc: Members-Discuss RIPE <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Questions about the published Draft Agenda and Supporting Documents [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources.
I should just offer to take over IANA/PTI functions for just 4 million?)
dr postel used to do it part time i like and use the iana. but it's not clear to me that they provide 1m/y of service to the ripe community. and they are funded by the icann, which has money up the wazoo. otoh, i do not enjoy the sport of micro-managing the ncc budget. i think hph and crew get the message, and are on a diet. and that the the NCC got an effectively instant 3-4% expense reduction on short notice in time of inflation is pretty impressive. randy _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/michele%40blacknight....
Randy Bush writes:
I should just offer to take over IANA/PTI functions for just 4 million?)
dr postel used to do it part time
i like and use the iana. but it's not clear to me that they provide 1m/y of service to the ripe community. and they are funded by the icann, which has money up the wazoo.
Right. Looking at ICANN's cost structure (some reasons of which were explained by Lutz) serves as a reminder that we're quite well off with RIPE NCC in terms of services rendered vs. funding consumed.
otoh, i do not enjoy the sport of micro-managing the ncc budget. i think hph and crew get the message, and are on a diet. and that the the NCC got an effectively instant 3-4% expense reduction on short notice in time of inflation is pretty impressive.
Well said, thanks. -- Simon.
On 02/11/2023 17:31, Kaj Niemi wrote:
Hi,
First, I think it is important to note that /something/ was done. They did reduce the expenditure by 3.8% (budgeted 2023 vs forecasted 2023). Could they have reduced it more? Probably, but by how much more is debatable.
This is excellent news and it shows that the EB is listening to its members. Lets hope that in future years, the budget can be further reduced by 1-3%. Regards, Hank
My opinion remains the same! The main task of RIPE NCC is to manage the IP address space. And unfortunately we are not doing well with this. We need to introduce a fee for EACH IPv4 IP address, and the amounts received should be directed to the development of IPv6 and the mechanisms of its compatibility with IPv4. For example, the development of mechanisms like IPv8. We should direct our efforts not to reduce the budget, but to solve the general problem of the address space.
On 02/11/2023 17:31, Kaj Niemi wrote:
Hi,
First, I think it is important to note that /something/ was done. They did reduce the expenditure by 3.8% (budgeted 2023 vs forecasted 2023). Could they have reduced it more? Probably, but by how much more is debatable.
This is excellent news and it shows that the EB is listening to its members. Lets hope that in future years, the budget can be further reduced by 1-3%.
Regards, Hank
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru
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Hi, On Fri, Nov 03, 2023 at 11:53:16AM +0300, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
We need to introduce a fee for EACH IPv4 IP address, and the amounts received should be directed to the development of IPv6 and the mechanisms
Don't let us stop you there... $ host -t aaaa a-n-t.ru a-n-t.ru has no AAAA record $ host -t aaaa www.a-n-t.ru www.a-n-t.ru has no AAAA record $ host -t aaaa mail.a-n-t.ru mail.a-n-t.ru has no AAAA record ... if you think that IPv6 is important (and I would agree to that), having IPv6 on your "home" services is a local thing under your control. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
And what is the meaning of your message of the transition to personality? Will this somehow help protocol compatibility and the transition of tens of thousands of clients to new protocols and the replacement of thousands of pieces of equipment? Or will it help to somehow increase the budget of the NCC? Do you think NCC members should only worry about their personal problems? Or, do you think that we should only be concerned about the problems of the wonderful garden of the EU? If we don't use IPv6, it just means we don't need it right now. The time will come and there will be IPv6 or IPv8 in our stack. If you think that IPv6 itself is the solution to stop using IPv4, then I will upset you - you really are not in the telecommunications business. This trouble story is continuing more than 20 years.
Hi,
On Fri, Nov 03, 2023 at 11:53:16AM +0300, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
We need to introduce a fee for EACH IPv4 IP address, and the amounts received should be directed to the development of IPv6 and the mechanisms
Don't let us stop you there...
$ host -t aaaa a-n-t.ru a-n-t.ru has no AAAA record $ host -t aaaa www.a-n-t.ru www.a-n-t.ru has no AAAA record $ host -t aaaa mail.a-n-t.ru mail.a-n-t.ru has no AAAA record
... if you think that IPv6 is important (and I would agree to that), having IPv6 on your "home" services is a local thing under your control.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.
Hi, On Fri, Nov 03, 2023 at 01:14:32PM +0300, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
If we don't use IPv6, it just means we don't need it right now. The time will come and there will be IPv6 or IPv8 in our stack.
There is IPv6 in your stacks, and has been since 10+ years. There will not be IPv8 anywhere any time soon.
If you think that IPv6 itself is the solution to stop using IPv4, then I will upset you - you really are not in the telecommunications business. This trouble story is continuing more than 20 years.
I'm well aware of that. People like those responsible for not having IPv6 on a-n-t.ru servers are the problem here. So, do your own homework, before complaining that others are not moving fast enough. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Hi!
So, do your own homework, before complaining that others are not moving fast enough.
If you see a big truck coming at you fast, it's silly to wait for the moment when it turns aside. If there is a problem, it must either be solved, or somehow avoid its consequences. And certainly not to push its solution into the future, of course, if we are not talking about death :-). Unfortunately, pushing the solution of problems into the future has long been the main trend not only in the NCC, but all over the world.
Hi,
On Fri, Nov 03, 2023 at 01:14:32PM +0300, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
If we don't use IPv6, it just means we don't need it right now. The time will come and there will be IPv6 or IPv8 in our stack.
There is IPv6 in your stacks, and has been since 10+ years.
There will not be IPv8 anywhere any time soon.
If you think that IPv6 itself is the solution to stop using IPv4, then I will upset you - you really are not in the telecommunications business. This trouble story is continuing more than 20 years.
I'm well aware of that. People like those responsible for not having IPv6 on a-n-t.ru servers are the problem here.
So, do your own homework, before complaining that others are not moving fast enough.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.
Hi, On Fri, Nov 03, 2023 at 01:55:36PM +0300, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
So, do your own homework, before complaining that others are not moving fast enough.
If you see a big truck coming at you fast, it's silly to wait for the moment when it turns aside.
If there is a problem, it must either be solved, or somehow avoid its consequences.
Yes, the solution is "everyone does their bit". You are not doing yours, but complain that RIPE isn't solving your problems. Which is generally not an approach people appreciate very much. So, go home, do *your* IPv6 homework, today, then come back and help moving the rest. I've started doing my work roughly 24 years ago... inet6num: 2001:608::/32 netname: DE-SPACE-19990812 Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
* Gert wrote:
So, do your own homework, before complaining that others are not moving fast enough.
If you see a big truck coming at you fast, it's silly to wait for the moment when it turns aside.
If there is a problem, it must either be solved, or somehow avoid its consequences. And certainly not to push its solution into the future, of course, if we are not talking about death :-). Unfortunately, pushing the solution of problems into the future has long been the main trend not only in the NCC, but all over the world.
We saw the problem in early 199x and decided to invent IPv6 to solve it. Because it would not get deployed within a couple of years, we started with transition technologies like CIDR and NAT, do reduce the impact. Unfortunately some people are unwilling to solve the problem by implementing the intended and available solutions, instead they insist on ever increasing support from others to keep their technical debt. Even worse several new people assume, that the transition technologies are the way to go, because their environment (ISPs, colleagues, schools, universities, vendors, ...) are still too lazy to deal with IPv6. So and now please do your homework. We could switch RIPE mailing lists to IPv6 only in order to help you and others.
There is IPv6 in your stacks, and has been since 10+ years.
26 for our first v6 backbone. but it is still painful. randy
You’re really going to have to explain this in detail How much do you want RIPE to charge per IP? Why would anyone agree to paying this? At what point in time did RIPE become responsible for “fixing” IPv6 v IPv4? Will RIPE start making hardware? I’m absolutely fascinated to hear how this will all work. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours. From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of sdy@a-n-t.ru <sdy@a-n-t.ru> Date: Friday, 3 November 2023 at 08:54 To: Hank Nussbacher <hank@interall.co.il> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net>, Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Questions about the published Draft Agenda and Supporting Documents [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources. My opinion remains the same! The main task of RIPE NCC is to manage the IP address space. And unfortunately we are not doing well with this. We need to introduce a fee for EACH IPv4 IP address, and the amounts received should be directed to the development of IPv6 and the mechanisms of its compatibility with IPv4. For example, the development of mechanisms like IPv8. We should direct our efforts not to reduce the budget, but to solve the general problem of the address space.
On 02/11/2023 17:31, Kaj Niemi wrote:
Hi,
First, I think it is important to note that /something/ was done. They did reduce the expenditure by 3.8% (budgeted 2023 vs forecasted 2023). Could they have reduced it more? Probably, but by how much more is debatable.
This is excellent news and it shows that the EB is listening to its members. Lets hope that in future years, the budget can be further reduced by 1-3%.
Regards, Hank
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru
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1. The IP address fee has already been discussed. Unfortunately, most of the proposals were ignored by the leadership of the NCC. As a consequence - the failure of the vote and the reduction of the budget. 2. If the NCC manages the shared space, spending money on monitoring infrastructure and RPKI, then why can't it spend money on creating and promoting protocol compatibility and education (popularizing educational materials on the protocol in different languages)? Especially if this will be done at the expense of paying for the use of an outdated protocol, the lack of addresses in which brings problems to NCC members?
You’re really going to have to explain this in detail
How much do you want RIPE to charge per IP?
Why would anyone agree to paying this?
At what point in time did RIPE become responsible for “fixing” IPv6 v IPv4?
Will RIPE start making hardware?
I’m absolutely fascinated to hear how this will all work.
Regards
Michele
-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845
I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours.
From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of sdy@a-n-t.ru <sdy@a-n-t.ru> Date: Friday, 3 November 2023 at 08:54 To: Hank Nussbacher <hank@interall.co.il> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net>, Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce@ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Questions about the published Draft Agenda and Supporting Documents [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources.
My opinion remains the same! The main task of RIPE NCC is to manage the IP address space. And unfortunately we are not doing well with this.
We need to introduce a fee for EACH IPv4 IP address, and the amounts received should be directed to the development of IPv6 and the mechanisms of its compatibility with IPv4. For example, the development of mechanisms like IPv8.
We should direct our efforts not to reduce the budget, but to solve the general problem of the address space.
On 02/11/2023 17:31, Kaj Niemi wrote:
Hi,
First, I think it is important to note that /something/ was done. They did reduce the expenditure by 3.8% (budgeted 2023 vs forecasted 2023). Could they have reduced it more? Probably, but by how much more is debatable.
This is excellent news and it shows that the EB is listening to its members. Lets hope that in future years, the budget can be further reduced by 1-3%.
Regards, Hank
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru
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sdy@a-n-t.ru:
We need to introduce a fee for EACH IPv4 IP address, and the amounts received should be directed to the development of IPv6 and the mechanisms of its compatibility with IPv4. For example, the development of mechanisms like IPv8.
Absolutely not, the purpose is to remove those mechanisms and have pure native IPv6 connectivity.
We should direct our efforts not to reduce the budget, but to solve the general problem of the address space.
This problem has been resolved in 1995, it's called IPv6. In 20 years of business you haven't been able to deploy IPv6, not even is there an IPv6 network advertised by your AS.
If we don't use IPv6, it just means we don't need it right now. The time will come and there will be IPv6 or IPv8 in our stack.
No it won't. And if there's ever IPv8, it definitely won't be working the way you suggest it to, or that would be nonsensical!
The main task of RIPE NCC is to manage the IP address space.
before making such statements, you may wanto to look at the founding documents, https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-001, -002, and -003 randy
My opinion remains the same! The main task of RIPE NCC is to manage the IP address space. And unfortunately we are not doing well with this.
Yes and No... The main tasks of RIPE is to manage the IR (Internet Resourses) and not only IPV4/IPV6 address spaces but also ASN space, to keep working 24/7 access to the DB, where our routers can fetch info, to keep ROA infrastructure and many more. And Yes RIPE not doing well with this. Such creatures like IP brokers _MUST_ not exists. Internet resources are not for selling/renting and e.t.c. IR _ARE_ for using to can internet working at all.
We need to introduce a fee for EACH IPv4 IP address, and the amounts received should be directed to the development of IPv6 and the mechanisms of its compatibility with IPv4. For example, the development of mechanisms like IPv8.
Yes and No... RIPE should charge LIRs per resources they are holding. As more resources the LIR holds, as more the LIR have to pay. Because more resources means bigger bussiness, more clients, and more work for the RIPE staff. There is no sense to make IPV6 <-> IPV4 compability. Because there is such already. You can look to IPV6 like an extender of IPV4, for example: IPV4: 94.103.233.56 IPV6: 2001:7f8:1:1:94:103:233:56 Isnt the first 4 x 16bit numbers extending your tiny 32bit IPV4 ? Get one /32 IPV6 block from RIPE, and you can use it like IPV4 but in that /32 block you will have 18446744078004518913 times more IPs that you have in the all IPV4 address space just for you :) You can use IPV6 in the same way you use your IPV4 just change . with : if you like. But when you dive deeper in IPV6 will find much better, smarter and easier to configure ways. The biggest problem is that access providers keep buying cheaper equipment that dont always support IPV6, and what to say about IPV8 ? Cheaper equipment dont even work properly with IPV4 NAT, because it breaking contrack table and NATed IPV4 connection become unstable. Also in many fields of the application software there are no good IPV6 support or any IPV6 support. There are a lot to improve from the equipment manufacturers and software programmers (maybe better to say coders, because this days hard to find realy good and skilled programmers who knows what exactly he/she is doing). Right now I am deploying dual stack (IPV4/IPV6) network to clients of one access provider in our region. Working with epon/gpon technology, with cheap equipment, making custom onu firmwares, and know very well where are the problems I can assure you on 100% that IPV6 works much better than double treble or even four time NAT behind NAT because lack of IPV4 addresses (If you need help write me We can advice your network engineers/administrators or even make all your network dual stack).
We should direct our efforts not to reduce the budget, but to solve the general problem of the address space.
The RIPE budget _MUST_ be reduced, because tens millions euro is too much for such organisation with non commercial purposes. Money should be invested in open source projects wich creates a really good and nice software. No matter what we say, all telecoms equipments (from cisco to absolutely no name chinese one) uses linux + open source code today. And puting money in good useful and mainly working projects will help us all + will make the internet with better quality accessible to all around the globe. Ivaylo Josifov VarnaIX / Varteh LTD +359 52 969393 Varna, Bulgaria On Fri, 3 Nov 2023, sdy@a-n-t.ru wrote:
My opinion remains the same! The main task of RIPE NCC is to manage the IP address space. And unfortunately we are not doing well with this.
We need to introduce a fee for EACH IPv4 IP address, and the amounts received should be directed to the development of IPv6 and the mechanisms of its compatibility with IPv4. For example, the development of mechanisms like IPv8.
We should direct our efforts not to reduce the budget, but to solve the general problem of the address space.
On 02/11/2023 17:31, Kaj Niemi wrote:
Hi,
First, I think it is important to note that /something/?was done. They did reduce the expenditure by 3.8% (budgeted 2023 vs forecasted 2023). Could they have reduced it more? Probably, but by how much more is debatable.
This is excellent news and it shows that the EB is listening to its members. Lets hope that in future years, the budget can be further reduced by 1-3%.
Regards, Hank
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Dear Erik, Thank you for your questions and comments. Following the GM with the two-thirds majority decision not to increase the membership fees for 2024 and seeing that the 2023 income would be less than budgeted, we started to look for immediate cost savings. At the Executive Board meeting in July https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2023/minutes-167th-exe... The board’s direction was to “to focus on cost-saving as much as possible rather than stopping activities at this point. Changes in activities must be discussed with the members in, for instance, Open Houses and at the next GM.” Further, the Board suggested aiming for a break-even budget for 2024, including revenue at risk. I also shared that bringing costs down in the same order of magnitude in 2025 will not be possible without reducing services. Following this guidance, while considering potential inflation of 5% in 2023 following the 10% inflation in 2022, we have had to find cost cuts of 2M EUR or 5% of costs (5% inflation over 2023 would effectively mean 9.5% in savings - high inflation makes the budget tighter while lower inflation can provide some more space). The Information Technology budget has been reduced by 761 kEUR from 4,261 kEUR in 2023 to 3,500 kEUR in the proposed budget for 2024. This is an 18% reduction and second to the cut in consultancy costs. Note that the IT budget across the whole RIPE NCC, which can be found in the Income and Expenditure statement on page 10, is different from the budget for Information Services consisting of the measurement services, IT and DNS services. We have done a re-organisation this year to move all technology areas under one CTO, Felipe. I fully trust that he is on a path to align development processes across the teams and IT management processes. He has naturally focused on the initiatives with the most impact first. When it comes to the measurement services, Atlas and RIS, that collect a large amount of data, we presented to the Executive Board our plans to re-engineer the back-end of these services, currently served by a Hadoop cluster in rented data centre space in Amsterdam. The plan is to move to rented bare metal, which gives us the flexibility to scale it up or down, depending on future budget constraints, and also a tiered storage solution for historical data which will further reduce costs. We will also suggest to the MAT Working Group to start a task force to work on Data Retention Principles for the RIPE NCC measurement services. For the measurement services, RIPE Atlas, RIPEstat and RIS, we have reduced the budget by a total of 300k. When it comes to stopping services, I believe that requires further discussion and analysis. We must discuss this thoroughly with the RIPE Community in the relevant working group and with the membership. We are using the RIPE NCC Survey as a basis for this. I will start this discussion with the EB in the December board meeting. Sunsetting a service may, in some cases, take some time due to existing contracts. I am very aware of this, and we question the long-term renewal of all significant supplier agreements to make sure we have the necessary freedom to make changes going forward. I would like to end by saying that I believe the stability of the RIR system is very important, and changes to the RIPE NCC should be done incrementally so as not to cause any disruption. I am looking forward to further discussion on the list an at the upcoming RIPE meeting. Sincerely, Hans Petter Holen Managing Director & Chief Executive Officer RIPE NCC
On 1 Nov 2023, at 20:15, Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com> wrote:
Dear Hans Petter,
Thank you for providing the supporting documents for the GM in Rome.
Before we are going to be in Rome, I have a question for you and I cc:'ed the member-discuss ML, as I'm sure some other members might also have a couple questions on the following topic.
I would like to ask you, how the RIPE NCC thought it was a great slide to present just a 2Milj Euro budget cut .. as if it was the best it could do .. given that it was stated on the last GM .. that it wasn't going to increase the budget .. And with the inflation, basically what that means .. you need to cut cost and cut hard ...
So I would assume that the Director of the NCC .. would see this as an opportunity ... and discuss with management and staff, what is excessive .. and where can we 'kill our darlings' ...
As for any writer that needs to do proper editing of a long novel .. I get the feeling that you didn't went/wanted to go through that process .. not as fierce as that the membership have suggested you to do .. And I would suggest that this budget document, need some serious editing ...
One of the reasons for my disbelieve that you did that process already properly .. is that if I see an IT spend of 7.6 milj. Euro (2023 ) and you proudly present that the IT spend for 2024 is going to be 7.4 milj Euro ..
Either you have a HUGE technical debt that you can't manage .. or you didn't went head to head with your CTO / IT Director ... and stopped asking for more cuts until he actually sad in your office crying in despair.
Just an example ... If I'm correct, the RIPE NCC is currently in a datacenter facility in Amsterdam .. with roughly 80 cabinets filled with $random equipment, almost half of that (most likely as my gut feeling is ) to store and hold every single ICMP ping/trace life on disk etc.. since the conception of the Atlas project..
And the best you can come back to the community is .. we've managed to reduce the cost of Atlas with 50.000 euro p/yr ? The proper question to ask is, do we need every freaking completed test to store that into infinity on spinning disks .. because we never asked the community if we can just through away every PING test result after 60 days . and save 20 cabinets in storage, equipment and power usage.
Who are you kidding ...
And that colocation / hw cost is next to the already half milj. Euro charge for the public cloud (AWS) already (per year..)
So I seriously wonder if you asked the right questions instead of just tried to maintain the status quo ...
One of those 'services' that I seriously think that the NCC should step away from .. is providing 'secondary' DNS server for reverse dns .. I mean .. come on .. how hard is that for the community to manage that by themselves .. and just because the NCC did that since the conception of the NCC ( or at least longer than I can remember ) .. is that still something that people use and expect the NCC to provide ?
It might be good suggestion to setup an impartial task force / audit team.. reporting to the Executive Board (EB) .. that does (IT) spending audits .. looking for projects that are WAY over budgets, technical debt, overspending due to historic reasoning etc.. These should be externals to the RIPE NCC (staff), but with lots of different views and know how to spot a pet project when they see one .Or project, because we always did it that way. And then report to the EB with suggestions on how to act on it.
I think it is then up to the EB, to discuss those findings internally and decide to have the discussion with the RIPE NCC Management on how to change and reduce the technical debt and how to actual cut cost.
I have a gut feeling that the EB isn't getting all the information during the EB meetings or during the follow up's or it takes AGES to obtain the information or it is based on consolidated info, with 3 layers of management cutting and rewriting in between.
The "Kill Your Darlings Audit Team" ( KYDAT ), should be the fresh look, to see if the NCC is still doing the right things .. and if the RIPE NCC management is managing towards a more agile and leaner future.
This doesn't mean .. let's host everything at the public cloud and see how long the credit card keeps clearing .. it means that common sense with eye's from the outside of the RIPE NCC, might help to provide a better insight.
The benefit of KYDAT is that they aren't 'burdened' with employee politics or with smoke and mirrors of certain management that is withholding / stalling documents of how bad it really is .. they will look for themselves .. and report and suggest.
I don't envy the role that you have been tasked with ...
But I was expecting something more serious ..
Regards, Erik Bais
In my opinion, the discussion becomes a little bit off-topic. The discussion about fairness of holding many IPs or even a few and how unused address space can be returned is rather object of policies. The task of the charging scheme is to cover the expenses of the RIPE NCC for "doing it's Job". Some of the expenses are completely independant from the allocated ressources, some depend on number, dynamic and complexitivity of service requests (tickets) and at least some consume infrastructure ressources dependant of the kind of usage of Address Space. Maintaining allocations for long time generates far less costs than transfers. I assume that Assignements won't consume considerable more Database ressources, but related route-Objects (don't remember the good idea of Provider aggregatet routes in todays world with distributed scrubbing services against DDoS attacks) might affect far more services than only the RIPE Database. My Conclusion: The new scheme should representate the costs caused by the members (big members cause absolutely more costs but in relation much less costs) , but should even be easy to handle at the same time. Regards, Andreas Schmieja
Le Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 05:15:18PM +0100, Andreas Schmieja a écrit :
Maintaining allocations for long time generates far less costs than transfers.
This is a good observation. If we assume that : 1- number of LIR decreases because they were just opened to get some part of the last-/8 and now they are closing after transfer to the "parent" LIR 2- transfer cause a higher workload at RIPE Perhaps we could make the transfer more expensive than keeping the LIR open for 5/7 years (instead of the current 2 years). Obviously it will not solve the initial problem of how to keep RIPE NCC budget/services without increasing membership fee too much. It will just give us some time to come up with another solution (which may well be start to remove the fat at RIPE NCC). -- Denis Fondras / Liopen
participants (16)
-
Andreas Schmieja -
Denis Fondras - Liopen -
Erik Bais -
Gert Doering -
Hank Nussbacher -
Hans Petter Holen -
ivaylo -
Kaj Niemi -
Kurtis Lindqvist -
Lutz Donnerhacke -
Michele Neylon - Blacknight -
Oleg Zinkov -
Pavel Polyakov -
Randy Bush -
sdy＠a-n-t.ru -
Simon Leinen