So that would be an easy one: To receive provider-independent resources get into contract with RIPE-NCC. Without any other way. Only problem with this 'Direct End User Assignment' is the horrible, far to high fee NCC want's to invoice. My theory: our dear hostmasters don't want to have the typical end-user hassle themselves and simply go for keeping that which has been made possible by 2007-01 far away by simply setting the fee high enough. Being forced to have a LIR handle a independent resource makes that resource dependent. just my 2c. Marcus ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Engineering IP Services Versatel West GmbH Unterste-Wilms-Strasse 29 D-44143 Dortmund Fon: +49-(0)231-399-4486 | Fax: +49-(0)231-399-4491 marcus.gerdon@versatel.de | www.versatel.de Sitz der Gesellschaft: Dortmund | Registergericht: Dortmund HRB 21738 Geschäftsführer: Marc Lützenkirchen, Dr. Hai Cheng, Dr. Max Padberg, Peter Schindler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AS8881 / AS8638 / AS13270 | MG3031-RIPE ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: members-discuss-admin@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Geraint Evans Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Juni 2009 11:13 An: Jon Morby; lir@uralttk.ru Cc: Sven Olaf Kamphuis; Martin List-Petersen; lir@uralttk.ru; Sven Olaf Kamphuis; members-discuss@ripe.net Betreff: RE: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010

The simple fact of the matter is PI space is not effectively being controlled.

RIPE need to take control of it so that we don't have the same problems with IPv6 as we do now with IPv4.

PI space has been passed to end users, and because its P.I no one is really maintaining who has what and what it is being used for.

By making LIR's responsible for the relationship with the end user of the P.I a reclamation can be easily achieved - if needed, I don't agree with the charging but I do agree with making whoever requested the P.I space on behalf of a client responsible.

Geraint

-----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-admin@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-admin@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Jon Morby Sent: 19 June 2009 09:29 To: lir@uralttk.ru Cc: Sven Olaf Kamphuis; Martin List-Petersen; lir@uralttk.ru; Sven Olaf Kamphuis; members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Discuss Charging Scheme 2010

And sadly it is a precedent ... EUR50 this year .... EUR500 the year after ... EUR5000 the year after that ??

Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests.

We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members

I totally agree that RIPE have been needlessly steering everyone into becoming an LIR when they only need a small assignment, and this has lead to a waste of IP allocations .. however my understanding is that this policy isn't designed to limit PA space assignments anyway ... it is designed to make PI harder to obtain, thus steering yet more people into the LIR route (whether they need to be an LIR or not) ...

How many LIRs find RIPE referring customers to them because they needed an assignment? Few I suspect - they all either get told "go find one from this list" or otherwise "become an LIR" and pay the small LIR fee.

Maybe its just me only seeing the glass as half full?

Jon

On 19 Jun 2009, at 09:16, Heidrich Attila wrote:

...

I think you do.

Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner.

I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals.

I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind.

Attila

-----Eredeti üzenet-----

...

Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.

no, you dont.

the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice.

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