Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents
Dear members, I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar. The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21 ) We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine… <snip> https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673 Article 2 – General 2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance. 2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax: · One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member · A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities. Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership. </snip> While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days.. That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document .. However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology. If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature. This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application .. Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office. <sarcasm> For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city. So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v... </sarcasm> And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices … Kind regards, Erik Bais
I strongly agree with Eric. Email is an accepted method of communication for signed contracts etc in so many different applications. Fax and post are outdated. Allow email submission! Kind Regards, Tom Corney From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Erik Bais Sent: 24 April 2018 16:41 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents Dear members, I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar. The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21 ) We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine… <snip> https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673 Article 2 – General 2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance. 2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax: · One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member · A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities. Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership. </snip> While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days.. That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document .. However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology. If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature. This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application .. Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office. <sarcasm> For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city. So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v... </sarcasm> And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices … Kind regards, Erik Bais ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.claranet.co.uk ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.claranet.co.uk ________________________________________________________________________
+1 And it is also not cheap to send and receive back those DHL document all over the planet. My guess is at least 50euro ish for each application send/receive back, if there are 2k application, we are taking About 100k postage cost a year.
On Apr 25, 2018, at 01:55, Tom Corney <Tom@portal-comms.co.uk> wrote:
I strongly agree with Eric.
Email is an accepted method of communication for signed contracts etc in so many different applications.
Fax and post are outdated. Allow email submission! Kind Regards,
Tom Corney
From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Erik Bais Sent: 24 April 2018 16:41 To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents
Dear members,
I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar.
The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21 )
We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine…
<snip>
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673
Article 2 – General
2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance.
2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax:
· One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member · A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities. Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership.
</snip>
While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days..
That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document ..
However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology.
If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature.
This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application ..
Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office.
<sarcasm>
For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city.
So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v...
</sarcasm>
And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices …
Kind regards, Erik Bais
________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.claranet.co.uk ________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.claranet.co.uk ________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/h.lu%40outsideheaven....
Dear all,
I strongly agree with Eric.
I also strongly agree with his initiative. I think it would be very nice to promote the technology of digital signatures, especially as the legal system in many of the countries of the RIPE NCC region allows its use.
Email is an accepted method of communication for signed contracts etc in so many different applications.
I emphasize here that Eric mentioned only digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail. I do not support at all the idea to accept the latter.
Fax and post are outdated.
I would not state this. Many companies and individuals feel much more comfortable with these old technologies than with digital signatures. I am sure a large number of members would still use postal mail in the next couple of years. Just as Tom, I also thought very few people use a fax machine nowadays, as in our environment (the Internet world) this is the case I think, but I made some short research not so long ago and found out that in many sectors it is still very popular, if one can believe articles like the following one: https://enterprise.efax.com/blog/the-top-10-reasons-companies-continue-to-fa... Also, the decision to accept digitally signed contracts needs some preparation. There are a lot of things to think about, including archiving of certificates, and sometimes even software implementing some algorithms... It is a lot of fun, but I do support the idea, and I would like to see the NCC eventually using this technology. At the same time, I think we have to allow for some preparation time. A similar topic can be the use of digital signatures for invoices sent out to members. This could also help saving a couple of trees perhaps. I know the NCC does send out invoices by e-mail, but these are not digitally signed. Signing the invoices could be implemented much easier I think. Best regards, Janos Zsako
Allow email submission!
Kind Regards,
Tom Corney
*From:*members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Erik Bais *Sent:* 24 April 2018 16:41 *To:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Subject:* [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents
Dear members,
I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar.
The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21)
We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine…
<snip>
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673
Article 2 – General
2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance.
2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax:
·One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member
·A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities.
Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership.
</snip>
While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days..
That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document ..
However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology.
If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature.
This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application ..
Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office.
<sarcasm>
For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city.
So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v...
</sarcasm>
And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices …
Kind regards,
Erik Bais
________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.claranet.co.uk ________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.claranet.co.uk ________________________________________________________________________
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I hope it is just one more way to sign and not a replacement. We have no harmonised system accross the region. Dima On 4/25/18 1:12 PM, Janos Zsako wrote:
Dear all,
I strongly agree with Eric.
I also strongly agree with his initiative. I think it would be very nice to promote the technology of digital signatures, especially as the legal system in many of the countries of the RIPE NCC region allows its use.
Email is an accepted method of communication for signed contracts etc in so many different applications.
I emphasize here that Eric mentioned only digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail. I do not support at all the idea to accept the latter.
Fax and post are outdated.
I would not state this. Many companies and individuals feel much more comfortable with these old technologies than with digital signatures. I am sure a large number of members would still use postal mail in the next couple of years.
Just as Tom, I also thought very few people use a fax machine nowadays, as in our environment (the Internet world) this is the case I think, but I made some short research not so long ago and found out that in many sectors it is still very popular, if one can believe articles like the following one: https://enterprise.efax.com/blog/the-top-10-reasons-companies-continue-to-fa...
Also, the decision to accept digitally signed contracts needs some preparation. There are a lot of things to think about, including archiving of certificates, and sometimes even software implementing some algorithms...
It is a lot of fun, but I do support the idea, and I would like to see the NCC eventually using this technology. At the same time, I think we have to allow for some preparation time.
A similar topic can be the use of digital signatures for invoices sent out to members. This could also help saving a couple of trees perhaps. I know the NCC does send out invoices by e-mail, but these are not digitally signed. Signing the invoices could be implemented much easier I think.
Best regards, Janos Zsako
Allow email submission!
Kind Regards,
Tom Corney
*From:*members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Erik Bais *Sent:* 24 April 2018 16:41 *To:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Subject:* [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents
Dear members,
I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar.
The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21)
We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine…
<snip>
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673
Article 2 – General
2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance.
2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax:
·One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member
·A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities.
Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership.
</snip>
While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days..
That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document ..
However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology.
If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature.
This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application ..
Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office.
<sarcasm>
For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city.
So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v...
</sarcasm>
And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices …
Kind regards,
Erik Bais
________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.claranet.co.uk ________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Claranet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.claranet.co.uk ________________________________________________________________________
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Can you please clarify, why it is that you think email is appropriate for digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail? I stand corrected on fax use, I had no idea it was still growing! Although, I think the demographic of ISPs may have lower than average fax usage. Our company have a fax simply because some customers do, we would not choose to fax or post over email unless it was absolutely necessary. I suppose you could consider fax or post more secure than email, but I'm not too sure how valid that argument is. Kind Regards, Tom Corney -----Original Message----- From: Janos Zsako [mailto:zsako@iszt.hu] Sent: 25 April 2018 11:13 To: Tom Corney <Tom@portal-comms.co.uk>; members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents Dear all,
I strongly agree with Eric.
I also strongly agree with his initiative. I think it would be very nice to promote the technology of digital signatures, especially as the legal system in many of the countries of the RIPE NCC region allows its use.
Email is an accepted method of communication for signed contracts etc in so many different applications.
I emphasize here that Eric mentioned only digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail. I do not support at all the idea to accept the latter.
Fax and post are outdated.
I would not state this. Many companies and individuals feel much more comfortable with these old technologies than with digital signatures. I am sure a large number of members would still use postal mail in the next couple of years. Just as Tom, I also thought very few people use a fax machine nowadays, as in our environment (the Internet world) this is the case I think, but I made some short research not so long ago and found out that in many sectors it is still very popular, if one can believe articles like the following one: https://enterprise.efax.com/blog/the-top-10-reasons-companies-continue-to-fa... Also, the decision to accept digitally signed contracts needs some preparation. There are a lot of things to think about, including archiving of certificates, and sometimes even software implementing some algorithms... It is a lot of fun, but I do support the idea, and I would like to see the NCC eventually using this technology. At the same time, I think we have to allow for some preparation time. A similar topic can be the use of digital signatures for invoices sent out to members. This could also help saving a couple of trees perhaps. I know the NCC does send out invoices by e-mail, but these are not digitally signed. Signing the invoices could be implemented much easier I think. Best regards, Janos Zsako
Allow email submission!
Kind Regards,
Tom Corney
*From:*members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Erik Bais *Sent:* 24 April 2018 16:41 *To:* members-discuss@ripe.net *Subject:* [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents
Dear members,
I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar.
The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21)
We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine…
<snip>
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673
Article 2 – General
2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance.
2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax:
·One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member
·A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities.
Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership.
</snip>
While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days..
That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document ..
However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology.
If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature.
This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application ..
Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office.
<sarcasm>
For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city.
So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-ver haal-voor-paardenkoets-in-centrum-amsterdam~a4580876/
</sarcasm>
And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices …
Kind regards,
Erik Bais
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Dear Tom,
Can you please clarify, why it is that you think email is appropriate for digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail?
I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know, in case of a litigation a digitally signed document is usually accepted by the court as evidence with much higher confidence than a scanned document. One of the roles of the digital signature is to ensure non-repudiation. A valid signature usually proves who signed the document (usually through a certificate issued by a trusted CA) and it also proves that the document has not been changed since. If it also contains a qualified time stamp, then you can also know for sure the document existed in this form at that time.
I stand corrected on fax use, I had no idea it was still growing! Although, I think the demographic of ISPs may have lower than average fax usage. Our company have a fax simply because some customers do, we would not choose to fax or post over email unless it was absolutely necessary.
Well, we cancelled the company fax a couple of years ago. :)
I suppose you could consider fax or post more secure than email, but I'm not too sure how valid that argument is.
Post and original (signed) documents are definitely more secure than fax or (digitally not signed) e-mail. In case of the fax, I tend to agree with you, but there was a time, in Hungary at least, when courts did accept fax as evidence, while e-mail was usually not accepted. The judges were of the (probably wrong) opinion that fax is more difficult to forge than e-mail. Best regards, Janos
Kind Regards, Tom Corney
I think RIPE sending the membership documents in a letter, because they use it also to verify the address. You can fake everything, the company papers and all. I dont think the RIPE checking this informations in local country registers. To fake a address is not that easy possible I would say... There are still many companys they send you a code by letter to verify the address. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Marcel Edler Geschäftsinhaber Optimate-Server EM Koddes 1 52531 Übach-Palenberg Germany Tel.: 06104 / 9722141 Fax: 06104 / 9722142 Mobil: 0177 / 83 55 499 eMail: medler@optimate-server.de Internet: http://www.optimate-server.de Am 25.04.2018 um 15:31 schrieb Janos Zsako:
Dear Tom,
Can you please clarify, why it is that you think email is appropriate for digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail?
I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know, in case of a litigation a digitally signed document is usually accepted by the court as evidence with much higher confidence than a scanned document. One of the roles of the digital signature is to ensure non-repudiation. A valid signature usually proves who signed the document (usually through a certificate issued by a trusted CA) and it also proves that the document has not been changed since. If it also contains a qualified time stamp, then you can also know for sure the document existed in this form at that time.
I stand corrected on fax use, I had no idea it was still growing! Although, I think the demographic of ISPs may have lower than average fax usage. Our company have a fax simply because some customers do, we would not choose to fax or post over email unless it was absolutely necessary.
Well, we cancelled the company fax a couple of years ago. :)
I suppose you could consider fax or post more secure than email, but I'm not too sure how valid that argument is.
Post and original (signed) documents are definitely more secure than fax or (digitally not signed) e-mail. In case of the fax, I tend to agree with you, but there was a time, in Hungary at least, when courts did accept fax as evidence, while e-mail was usually not accepted. The judges were of the (probably wrong) opinion that fax is more difficult to forge than e-mail.
Best regards, Janos
Kind Regards, Tom Corney
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/medler%40optimate-ser...
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RIPE does not really do this, they will send the documents also to a secondary address (not the LIR or company address). This verifies *some* address, but not *the* address. --William WeberConsulting, Security & Management - Tel-Aviv, Israel / Rijeka, Croatia https://ip6.im (https://ip6.im/) - No RIPE LIR? Still read this email for some reason? Grab a /40 *free* IPv6 space for BGP usage. Or just get it anyway, can't hurt to have. On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 07:40, Marcel Edler (Optimate-Server.de) wrote: I think RIPE sending the membership documents in a letter, because they use it also to verify the address. You can fake everything, the company papers and all. I dont think the RIPE checking this informations in local country registers. To fake a address is not that easy possible I would say... There are still many companys they send you a code by letter to verify the address. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Marcel Edler Geschäftsinhaber Optimate-Server EM Koddes 1 52531 Übach-Palenberg Germany Tel.: 06104 / 9722141 Fax: 06104 / 9722142 Mobil: 0177 / 83 55 499 eMail: medler@optimate-server.de (mailto:medler@optimate-server.de) Internet: http://www.optimate-server.de (http://www.optimate-server.de) Am 25.04.2018 um 15:31 schrieb Janos Zsako: Dear Tom, Can you please clarify, why it is that you think email is appropriate for digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail? I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know, in case of a litigation a digitally signed document is usually accepted by the court as evidence with much higher confidence than a scanned document. One of the roles of the digital signature is to ensure non-repudiation. A valid signature usually proves who signed the document (usually through a certificate issued by a trusted CA) and it also proves that the document has not been changed since. If it also contains a qualified time stamp, then you can also know for sure the document existed in this form at that time. I stand corrected on fax use, I had no idea it was still growing! Although, I think the demographic of ISPs may have lower than average fax usage. Our company have a fax simply because some customers do, we would not choose to fax or post over email unless it was absolutely necessary. Well, we cancelled the company fax a couple of years ago. :) I suppose you could consider fax or post more secure than email, but I'm not too sure how valid that argument is. Post and original (signed) documents are definitely more secure than fax or (digitally not signed) e-mail. In case of the fax, I tend to agree with you, but there was a time, in Hungary at least, when courts did accept fax as evidence, while e-mail was usually not accepted. The judges were of the (probably wrong) opinion that fax is more difficult to forge than e-mail. Best regards, Janos Kind Regards, Tom Corney _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/medler%40optimate-ser... (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/medler%40optimate-ser...) --- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. https://www.avast.com/antivirus (https://www.avast.com/antivirus) _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/william%40william.si (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/william%40william.si)
Hi, all. So what do you think about, if the NCC have the SSA in digital format and new members will check the checkbox during registration? It helps to save over 300 euro per account without the paper work. пн, 30 Апр 2018 г., 8:45 William <william@william.si>:
RIPE does not really do this, they will send the documents also to a secondary address (not the LIR or company address).
This verifies *some* address, but not *the* address.
-- William Weber Consulting, Security & Management - Tel-Aviv, Israel / Rijeka, Croatia
https://ip6.im - No RIPE LIR? Still read this email for some reason? Grab a /40 *free* IPv6 space for BGP usage. Or just get it anyway, can't hurt to have.
On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 07:40, Marcel Edler (Optimate-Server.de) < medler@optimate-server.de> wrote:
I think RIPE sending the membership documents in a letter, because they use it also to verify the address.
You can fake everything, the company papers and all. I dont think the RIPE checking this informations in local country registers.
To fake a address is not that easy possible I would say...
There are still many companys they send you a code by letter to verify the address.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Marcel Edler Geschäftsinhaber
Optimate-Server EM Koddes 1 52531 Übach-Palenberg Germany Tel.: 06104 / 9722141 Fax: 06104 / 9722142 Mobil: 0177 / 83 55 499 eMail: medler@optimate-server.de Internet: http://www.optimate-server.de
Am 25.04.2018 um 15:31 schrieb Janos Zsako:
Dear Tom,
Can you please clarify, why it is that you think email is appropriate for digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail?
I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know, in case of a litigation a digitally signed document is usually accepted by the court as evidence with much higher confidence than a scanned document. One of the roles of the digital signature is to ensure non-repudiation. A valid signature usually proves who signed the document (usually through a certificate issued by a trusted CA) and it also proves that the document has not been changed since. If it also contains a qualified time stamp, then you can also know for sure the document existed in this form at that time.
I stand corrected on fax use, I had no idea it was still growing! Although, I think the demographic of ISPs may have lower than average fax usage. Our company have a fax simply because some customers do, we would not choose to fax or post over email unless it was absolutely necessary.
Well, we cancelled the company fax a couple of years ago. :)
I suppose you could consider fax or post more secure than email, but I'm not too sure how valid that argument is.
Post and original (signed) documents are definitely more secure than fax or (digitally not signed) e-mail. In case of the fax, I tend to agree with you, but there was a time, in Hungary at least, when courts did accept fax as evidence, while e-mail was usually not accepted. The judges were of the (probably wrong) opinion that fax is more difficult to forge than e-mail.
Best regards, Janos
Kind Regards, Tom Corney
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Dear Aleksey, Are you suggesting to set up an LIR without having a proper contract between the NCC and the future Member? By proper contract I mean a paper based contract with a handwritten signature or an electronic contract with an at least advanced electronic signature. I would definitely recommend against the NCC doing this. Please note that Article 2.2. of the SSA also asks for "A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities." This can be easily checked on-line in many countries, but I think a paper document (or electronic document with an appropriate digital signature) is indeed important in all other cases. Best regards, Janos Zsako
So what do you think about, if the NCC have the SSA in digital format and new members will check the checkbox during registration? It helps to save over 300 euro per account without the paper work.
пн, 30 Апр 2018 г., 8:45 William <william@william.si <mailto:william@william.si>>:
__ RIPE does not really do this, they will send the documents also to a secondary address (not the LIR or company address).
This verifies *some* address, but not *the* address.
-- William Weber Consulting, Security & Management - Tel-Aviv, Israel / Rijeka, Croatia
https://ip6.im <https://ip6.im/> - No RIPE LIR? Still read this email for some reason? Grab a /40 *free* IPv6 space for BGP usage. Or just get it anyway, can't hurt to have.
On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 07:40, Marcel Edler (Optimate-Server.de) <medler@optimate-server.de <mailto:medler@optimate-server.de>> wrote:
I think RIPE sending the membership documents in a letter, because they use it also to verify the address.
You can fake everything, the company papers and all. I dont think the RIPE checking this informations in local country registers.
To fake a address is not that easy possible I would say...
There are still many companys they send you a code by letter to verify the address.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Marcel Edler Geschäftsinhaber
Optimate-Server EM Koddes 1 52531 Übach-Palenberg Germany Tel.: 06104 / 9722141 Fax: 06104 / 9722142 Mobil: 0177 / 83 55 499 eMail: medler@optimate-server.de <mailto:medler@optimate-server.de> Internet: http://www.optimate-server.de
Am 25.04.2018 um 15:31 schrieb Janos Zsako:
Dear Tom,
Can you please clarify, why it is that you think email is appropriate for digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail?
I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know, in case of a litigation a digitally signed document is usually accepted by the court as evidence with much higher confidence than a scanned document. One of the roles of the digital signature is to ensure non-repudiation. A valid signature usually proves who signed the document (usually through a certificate issued by a trusted CA) and it also proves that the document has not been changed since. If it also contains a qualified time stamp, then you can also know for sure the document existed in this form at that time.
I stand corrected on fax use, I had no idea it was still growing! Although, I think the demographic of ISPs may have lower than average fax usage. Our company have a fax simply because some customers do, we would not choose to fax or post over email unless it was absolutely necessary.
Well, we cancelled the company fax a couple of years ago. :)
I suppose you could consider fax or post more secure than email, but I'm not too sure how valid that argument is.
Post and original (signed) documents are definitely more secure than fax or (digitally not signed) e-mail. In case of the fax, I tend to agree with you, but there was a time, in Hungary at least, when courts did accept fax as evidence, while e-mail was usually not accepted. The judges were of the (probably wrong) opinion that fax is more difficult to forge than e-mail.
Best regards, Janos
Kind Regards, Tom Corney
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Hello to everyone, it is the first time we write here but we really have a solution for that. We have a remote digital signing Service that allow to digitally sign documents with low validity in Europe. If properly sad "digital" sign is not required we can provide electronical sign, but I think that in this case a Digital Sign Will be required. Is it sound interesting for you we are here to provide infromation and support during the trasformation of the process. All the best Roberto Minoletti FIRMAREMOTA -----Messaggio originale----- Da: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Per conto di Janos Zsako Inviato: lunedì 25 giugno 2018 07.59 A: Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov@gmail.com> Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net Oggetto: Re: [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents Dear Aleksey, Are you suggesting to set up an LIR without having a proper contract between the NCC and the future Member? By proper contract I mean a paper based contract with a handwritten signature or an electronic contract with an at least advanced electronic signature. I would definitely recommend against the NCC doing this. Please note that Article 2.2. of the SSA also asks for "A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities." This can be easily checked on-line in many countries, but I think a paper document (or electronic document with an appropriate digital signature) is indeed important in all other cases. Best regards, Janos Zsako
So what do you think about, if the NCC have the SSA in digital format and new members will check the checkbox during registration? It helps to save over 300 euro per account without the paper work.
пн, 30 Апр 2018 г., 8:45 William <william@william.si <mailto:william@william.si>>:
__ RIPE does not really do this, they will send the documents also to a secondary address (not the LIR or company address).
This verifies *some* address, but not *the* address.
-- William Weber Consulting, Security & Management - Tel-Aviv, Israel / Rijeka, Croatia
https://ip6.im <https://ip6.im/> - No RIPE LIR? Still read this email for some reason? Grab a /40 *free* IPv6 space for BGP usage. Or just get it anyway, can't hurt to have.
On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 07:40, Marcel Edler (Optimate-Server.de) <medler@optimate-server.de <mailto:medler@optimate-server.de>> wrote:
I think RIPE sending the membership documents in a letter, because they use it also to verify the address.
You can fake everything, the company papers and all. I dont think the RIPE checking this informations in local country registers.
To fake a address is not that easy possible I would say...
There are still many companys they send you a code by letter to verify the address.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Marcel Edler Geschäftsinhaber
Optimate-Server EM Koddes 1 52531 Übach-Palenberg Germany Tel.: 06104 / 9722141 Fax: 06104 / 9722142 Mobil: 0177 / 83 55 499 eMail: medler@optimate-server.de <mailto:medler@optimate-server.de> Internet: http://www.optimate-server.de
Am 25.04.2018 um 15:31 schrieb Janos Zsako:
Dear Tom,
Can you please clarify, why it is that you think email is appropriate for digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by hand, scanned and sent by e-mail?
I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know, in case of a litigation a digitally signed document is usually accepted by the court as evidence with much higher confidence than a scanned document. One of the roles of the digital signature is to ensure non-repudiation. A valid signature usually proves who signed the document (usually through a certificate issued by a trusted CA) and it also proves that the document has not been changed since. If it also contains a qualified time stamp, then you can also know for sure the document existed in this form at that time.
I stand corrected on fax use, I had no idea it was still growing! Although, I think the demographic of ISPs may have lower than average fax usage. Our company have a fax simply because some customers do, we would not choose to fax or post over email unless it was absolutely necessary.
Well, we cancelled the company fax a couple of years ago. :)
I suppose you could consider fax or post more secure than email, but I'm not too sure how valid that argument is.
Post and original (signed) documents are definitely more secure than fax or (digitally not signed) e-mail. In case of the fax, I tend to agree with you, but there was a time, in Hungary at least, when courts did accept fax as evidence, while e-mail was usually not accepted. The judges were of the (probably wrong) opinion that fax is more difficult to forge than e-mail.
Best regards, Janos
Kind Regards, Tom Corney
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Erik, you have my support for the request below. @all - sorry for the top post /elvis On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 01:37 Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com> wrote:
Dear members,
I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar.
The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 ( http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21 )
We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine…
<snip>
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673
Article 2 – General
2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance.
2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax:
· One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member
· A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities.
Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership.
</snip>
While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days..
That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document ..
However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology.
If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature.
This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application ..
Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office.
<sarcasm>
For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city.
So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v...
</sarcasm>
And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices …
Kind regards,
Erik Bais _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elvis%40v4escrow.net
-- Elvis Daniel Velea V4Escrow LLC Chief Executive Officer E-mail: elvis@v4escrow.net Mobile: +1 (702) 970 0921 Excuse the briefness of this mail, it was sent from a mobile device.
Hello, We also support this request. Thanks — Petru Bunea / CEO suport@bunea.eu <mailto:suport@bunea.eu> / +40752481282 <tel:+40752481282> Bunea TELECOM / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT http://www.bunea.eu <http://www.bunea.eu/> / +40745495495 <tel:+40745495495>
On 25 Jun 2018, at 12:48, Elvis Daniel Velea <elvis@v4escrow.net> wrote:
Erik,
you have my support for the request below.
@all - sorry for the top post
/elvis
On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 01:37 Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com <mailto:ebais@a2b-internet.com>> wrote: Dear members, <> I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar.
The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 <http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093> ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21 <http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21> )
We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine…
<snip>
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673 <https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673> Article 2 – General
2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance.
2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax:
· One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member
· A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities.
Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership.
</snip>
While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days..
That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document ..
However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology.
If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature.
This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application ..
Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office.
<sarcasm>
For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city.
So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v... <https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-voor-paardenkoets-in-centrum-amsterdam~a4580876/>
</sarcasm>
And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices …
Kind regards,
Erik Bais
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elvis%40v4escrow.net <https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elvis%40v4escrow.net> -- Elvis Daniel Velea V4Escrow LLC Chief Executive Officer E-mail: elvis@v4escrow.net <mailto:elvis@v4escrow.net> Mobile: +1 (702) 970 0921
Excuse the briefness of this mail, it was sent from a mobile device. _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu
Strongly support...it’s 2018. On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 23:14 Bunea TELECOM <suport@bunea.eu> wrote:
Hello,
We also support this request.
Thanks —
*Petru Bunea* / CEO suport@bunea.eu / +40752481282
Bunea TELECOM / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT http://www.bunea.eu / +40745495495
On 25 Jun 2018, at 12:48, Elvis Daniel Velea <elvis@v4escrow.net> wrote:
Erik,
you have my support for the request below.
@all - sorry for the top post
/elvis
On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 01:37 Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com> wrote:
Dear members,
I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar.
The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 ( http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21 )
We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine…
<snip>
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673
Article 2 – General
2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance.
2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax:
· One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member
· A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities.
Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership.
</snip>
While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days..
That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document ..
However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology.
If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature.
This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application ..
Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office.
<sarcasm>
For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city.
So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v...
</sarcasm>
And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices …
Kind regards,
Erik Bais _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elvis%40v4escrow.net
-- Elvis Daniel Velea V4Escrow LLC Chief Executive Officer E-mail: elvis@v4escrow.net Mobile: +1 (702) 970 0921
Excuse the briefness of this mail, it was sent from a mobile device. _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu
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I am absolutely against NOT sending by postal mail to sign but FOR allowing to return by mail/digital. There are already LIRs with fake eg. Belize and African company documents, if we now send nothing to nowhere anymore this will just get worse. This address sent to is also the only legal trace RIPE has - paid anonymous, with fake data and no address needed this is heaven for cybercrime - i'd love it, preventing all this BS would make me so much more money. Also, RIPE is not just EU - a digital signature is not worth shit in like Iran. DocuSign and similar are NOT accepted services in such countries, thus the signature is plainly invalid. -- William Weber On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 13:21, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote: Erik, you have my support for the request below. @all - sorry for the top post /elvis On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 01:37 Erik Bais wrote: Dear members, I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar. The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093)http://e... (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093) ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 ( (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21)http://wetten.overheid.nl/B... (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21) ) We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine… (https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673)https://www.ripe.net/publica... (https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673) Article 2 – General 2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance. 2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax: · One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member · A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities. Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership. While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days.. That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document .. However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology. If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature. This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application .. Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office. For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city. So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … (https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v... (https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v...) And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices … Kind regards, Erik Bais _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net) https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss) Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elvis%40v4escrow.net (https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elvis%40v4escrow.net) -- Elvis Daniel Velea V4Escrow LLC Chief Executive Officer E-mail: elvis@v4escrow.net (mailto:elvis@v4escrow.net) Mobile: +1 (702) 970 0921 Excuse the briefness of this mail, it was sent from a mobile device.
Hi On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 23:18 William <william@william.si> wrote:
I am absolutely against NOT sending by postal mail to sign but FOR allowing to return by mail/digital.
There are already LIRs with fake eg. Belize and African company documents, if we now send nothing to nowhere anymore this will just get worse
Guess how much a fake P.O. box cost, just google:)
.
This address sent to is also the only legal trace RIPE has - paid anonymous, with fake data and no address needed this is heaven for cybercrime - i'd love it, preventing all this BS would make me so much more money.
Also, RIPE is not just EU - a digital signature is not worth shit in like Iran.
for country do not support digital signatures require by post
DocuSign and similar are NOT accepted services in such countries, thus the signature is plainly invalid.
-- William Weber
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 13:21, Elvis Daniel Velea <elvis@v4escrow.net> wrote:
Erik,
you have my support for the request below.
@all - sorry for the top post
/elvis
On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 01:37 Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com> wrote:
Dear members, I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar. The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - <http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 ( <http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21> http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21 ) We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine… <snip> <https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673> https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673 Article 2 – General 2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance. 2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax: · One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member · A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities. Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership. </snip> While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days.. That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document .. However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology. If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature. This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application .. Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office. <sarcasm> For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city. So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … <https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-voor-paardenkoets-in-centrum-amsterdam~a4580876/> https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v...
</sarcasm> And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices …
Kind regards, Erik Bais _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elvis%40v4escrow.net
-- Elvis Daniel Velea V4Escrow LLC Chief Executive Officer E-mail: elvis@v4escrow.net Mobile: +1 (702) 970 0921
Excuse the briefness of this mail, it was sent from a mobile device.
_______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/h.lu%40outsideheaven....
-- This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this message and including the text of the transmission received.
Since we have seen so many invalid certificates and signatures and even big CAs fail, we are voting for the good old paperwork method. Kind regards, John Fitzgerald ---------------------------------------------------------------- John Fitzgerald Interactive Network GmbH MD/Geschaeftsfuehrer Lindleystraße 14 http://www.internet.de D-60314 Frankfurt am Main ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of William Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 1:41 PM To: members-discuss@ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents I am absolutely against NOT sending by postal mail to sign but FOR allowing to return by mail/digital. There are already LIRs with fake eg. Belize and African company documents, if we now send nothing to nowhere anymore this will just get worse. This address sent to is also the only legal trace RIPE has - paid anonymous, with fake data and no address needed this is heaven for cybercrime - i'd love it, preventing all this BS would make me so much more money. Also, RIPE is not just EU - a digital signature is not worth shit in like Iran. DocuSign and similar are NOT accepted services in such countries, thus the signature is plainly invalid. -- William Weber On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 13:21, Elvis Daniel Velea <elvis@v4escrow.net> wrote: Erik, you have my support for the request below. @all - sorry for the top post /elvis On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 01:37 Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com> wrote: Dear members, I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar. The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21 ) We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine… <snip> https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673 Article 2 – General 2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance. 2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax: • One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member • A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities. Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership. </snip> While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days.. That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document .. However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology. If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature. This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application .. Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office. <sarcasm> For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city. So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v... </sarcasm> And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices … Kind regards, Erik Bais _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elvis%40v4escrow.net -- Elvis Daniel Velea V4Escrow LLC Chief Executive Officer E-mail: elvis@v4escrow.net Mobile: +1 (702) 970 0921 Excuse the briefness of this mail, it was sent from a mobile device.
I respect your position even if: 1. May be we can find some other less expensive and more modern method to identify subscribers that send a paper mail in 2018. 2. Our solution allow to manage different Digital Certificates created by Europen Authority and strangers too. 3. We are distributor of DocuSign but in this case I was not proposing to use docusign wich is a Electronical Signature and not Digital Signature. Roberto Minoletti FIRMAREMOTA Da: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> Per conto di William Inviato: lunedì 25 giugno 2018 08.41 A: members-discuss@ripe.net Oggetto: Re: [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents I am absolutely against NOT sending by postal mail to sign but FOR allowing to return by mail/digital. There are already LIRs with fake eg. Belize and African company documents, if we now send nothing to nowhere anymore this will just get worse. This address sent to is also the only legal trace RIPE has - paid anonymous, with fake data and no address needed this is heaven for cybercrime - i'd love it, preventing all this BS would make me so much more money. Also, RIPE is not just EU - a digital signature is not worth shit in like Iran. DocuSign and similar are NOT accepted services in such countries, thus the signature is plainly invalid. -- William Weber On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 13:21, Elvis Daniel Velea <elvis@v4escrow.net <mailto:elvis@v4escrow.net> > wrote: Erik, you have my support for the request below. @all - sorry for the top post /elvis On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 01:37 Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com <mailto:ebais@a2b-internet.com> > wrote: Dear members, I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar. The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21 ) We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine… <snip> https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673 Article 2 – General 2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance. 2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax: * One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member * A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities. Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership. </snip> While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days.. That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document .. However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology. If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature. This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application .. Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office. <sarcasm> For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city. So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v... </sarcasm> And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices … Kind regards, Erik Bais _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elvis%40v4escrow.net -- Elvis Daniel Velea V4Escrow LLC Chief Executive Officer E-mail: elvis@v4escrow.net <mailto:elvis@v4escrow.net> Mobile: +1 (702) 970 0921 Excuse the briefness of this mail, it was sent from a mobile device.
What you said about Iran is not correct, but I can understand why you are making that false claim. :) I'm supporting digital version and also the option to request the paper SSA. Cheers, Arash Naderpour On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 1:20 AM William <william@william.si> wrote:
I am absolutely against NOT sending by postal mail to sign but FOR allowing to return by mail/digital.
There are already LIRs with fake eg. Belize and African company documents, if we now send nothing to nowhere anymore this will just get worse.
This address sent to is also the only legal trace RIPE has - paid anonymous, with fake data and no address needed this is heaven for cybercrime - i'd love it, preventing all this BS would make me so much more money.
Also, RIPE is not just EU - a digital signature is not worth shit in like Iran. DocuSign and similar are NOT accepted services in such countries, thus the signature is plainly invalid.
-- William Weber
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 13:21, Elvis Daniel Velea <elvis@v4escrow.net> wrote:
Erik,
you have my support for the request below.
@all - sorry for the top post
/elvis
On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 01:37 Erik Bais <ebais@a2b-internet.com> wrote:
Dear members, I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar. The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - <http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 ( <http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21> http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21 ) We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine… <snip> <https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673> https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673 Article 2 – General 2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance. 2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax: · One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member · A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities. Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership. </snip> While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days.. That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document .. However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology. If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature. This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application .. Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office. <sarcasm> For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city. So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … <https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-voor-paardenkoets-in-centrum-amsterdam~a4580876/> https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-v...
</sarcasm> And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices …
Kind regards, Erik Bais _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss@ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elvis%40v4escrow.net
-- Elvis Daniel Velea V4Escrow LLC Chief Executive Officer E-mail: elvis@v4escrow.net Mobile: +1 (702) 970 0921
Excuse the briefness of this mail, it was sent from a mobile device.
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participants (14)
-
Aleksey Bulgakov -
Arash Naderpour -
Bunea TELECOM -
Dmitry Burkov -
Elvis Daniel Velea -
Erik Bais -
Gurucube / Hi-Tech Projects | Info -
Janos Zsako -
John Fitzgerald -
Lu Heng -
Lu Heng -
Marcel Edler (Optimate-Server.de) -
Tom Corney -
William