On 19 Jun 2009, at 11:38, Thomas Mangin wrote:
Hi,
Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests.
RIPE policies are proposed and voted by the membership, it can not get any more democratic than that !
Yes, but generally it would seem that they're discussed at the GM and not in open forums such as this .... tbh other than a comment asking for a sample contract a few months ago (which I've still not seen, so haven't looked into this further until this thread started) I've not seen any discussion on this proposal
If you do not like them: VOTE - you do not have to be at the meeting to send a proxy, and I do not say this as I am in favor of charing for PI space (I am neutral on the point) - I say it as it is how working members organisation stay alive.
If I knew what we were voting on, and could find a company/member I trusted to proxy my vote in the way I wished it to be cast, then I would I'd be happier voting based on the minutes of the meeting through the LIR portal however ... and even happier if I can watch a stream of the whole proceedings on the basis it is difficult for me to get to any of these events
We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members
I am in the UK, I am Nominet member as well. I went to Nominet Manchester consultation and to the best of my knowledge what you are saying is totally wrong. The board has currently no say on pricing, it is one of the point under discussion and any change in this direction will need to be voted.
This isn't the place for this discussion, but I refer to the implementation of DAC/EPP/Whois2/etc where we were told we would have to pay an additional £400 for access on top of our membership fee owing to the policy of having "preferred" access or similar ... In the end we worked around it, but I'm also concerned about discussions I've heard about having weighted voting based on the number of domains you have registered through Nominet ... being a member should entitle you to 1 vote per membership .. not 1 vote per domain you register .. then anyone can "buy" the policy making process if they have enough money
Feel free to ask nom-steer for a long discussion on the matter should you not want to take my word for it (and you have no reason to do).
One day ... when I have enough staff, and enough spare time ... but not before I've had some sleep and a holiday! :)
Regards,
Thomas Mangin Technical Director -- Exa Networks Limited - http://www.exa-networks.co.uk/ Company No. 04922037 - VAT no. 829 1565 09 27-29 Mill Field Road, BD16 1PY, UK Phone: +44 (0) 845 145 1234 - Fax: +44 (0) 1274 567646
And sadly it is a precedent ... EUR50 this year .... EUR500 the year after ... EUR5000 the year after that ??
Once it has been agreed in principal that we RIPE should start charging for an assignment, it is then possible for "the few" who are able to make it to these RIPE jollies^Wmeetings all over Europe and steer the policies then do so to their best interests.
We've seen this recently with Nominet in the UK where by they now have 2 tiers of access, and it is no longer a "level playing field" for all members .. you have members, and you have "elite" members
I totally agree that RIPE have been needlessly steering everyone into becoming an LIR when they only need a small assignment, and this has lead to a waste of IP allocations .. however my understanding is that this policy isn't designed to limit PA space assignments anyway ... it is designed to make PI harder to obtain, thus steering yet more people into the LIR route (whether they need to be an LIR or not) ...
How many LIRs find RIPE referring customers to them because they needed an assignment? Few I suspect - they all either get told "go find one from this list" or otherwise "become an LIR" and pay the small LIR fee.
Maybe its just me only seeing the glass as half full?
Jon
On 19 Jun 2009, at 09:16, Heidrich Attila wrote:
I think you do.
Consider the domain registration. The registrator is kinda "service provider" whether it serves any kind of access/hosting/content/DNS or whatever, and the end user is the only "independent" user of the named resource - but not owner.
I think this is very similar to the PI assignments. In Hungary this is normal the regitrstor having a one time enrollment feer, a yearly fee (well, this contains registration fees for the whole amount), and per-transaction fees after all new registration, transfers, and prolongals.
I do not think EUR50 to be so big problem, but we are an ISP, so this is quite normal for us to have the customer pay after allocating resources of any kind.
Attila
-----Eredeti üzenet-----
Not every LIR is an ISP, a lot of them are. If you assign PI to somebody else, you have a provider/enduser relationship. That makes you a service provider of some sort. Be it internet, content or hosting.
no, you dont.
the customer usually asks to just register ip space and an AS number which he then announces himself to transits of -his- choice.
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