Some members in their infinite wisdom have decided to subscribe their ticketing systems to the mailing list, so they raised a ticket automatically when you sent your email and then sent the auto-response message back to you.

Edward Dore 
Freethought Internet 

On 28 May 2014, at 12:56, Timothy Roy <Timothy@tra.gov.om> wrote:

I do not know what happened but after I sent my reply to this I started getting all sorts of emails relating to trouble tickets being created.

See attached emails if you like. I find this quite strange.

Anyone know why this would happen?


-----Original Message-----
From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of admin@intl-alliance.com
Sent: 28 May 2014 15:50
To: members-discuss@ripe.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members

Folks, I sincerely apologize for my coarse language. I am just extremely frustrated over this situation.

On 2014-05-28 12:40, Timothy Roy wrote:
I think that this is an issue to brought up through an Internet
Governance Forum which also deals with cooperation amongst various
stakeholders and entities.

I have found the reading quite interesting but it would be nice to
maintain a certain amount of etiquette (for some people) when writing
emails (especially on an open list like this one) by curbing the
language a bit.



-----Original Message-----
From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net
[mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Lu Heng
Sent: 28 May 2014 15:24
To: Bill Lewis
Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members

it's like blacklist for spammers...even though a lot of spammer claim
they are obeying the can-spam law, they still can not sue spamhuis for
blacklisting them, because end of the day, spamhuis are only express
their opinion and they do not force anyone to use their opinion.

same for the location thing, they only express their opinion and they
are not forcing anyone to believe in them...so aside from contact each
content provider or maxmind their self, i really don't see much we can
do about it.

but really...i don't think ripe member mailing list is something for
this kind of discussion about private business...

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Bill Lewis <Bill.lewis@kijoma.co.uk>
wrote:
hi,

this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites
such as netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different
country.

The least this does is change their web pages to the language making
it near impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service
due to being outside the service coverage area.

We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the
content providers to resolve their location database issues as the
likes of Maxmind are near impossible to gain any action out of from
our experience.

It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them
then the problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting
Maxmind etc..

Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level
country data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising
data?

I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these
databases with junk for the fun of it too..

--
Bill Lewis
Kijoma Broadband



On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan Özşekerci wrote:

I can’t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a
private company’s database and helping them to  earn more money where
they don’t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing
false information about them.



This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first
place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money.



In our case , maximind is showing the location of  our IP subnets in
a “Village” which of the  name is the same as our company just by
coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally
different city.



So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these
“more specific” data is crap for me.





As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I
expect them to rely on their own database which has the information
that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers.





Regards



Sinan ÖZŞEKERCİ







From: members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net
[mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM
To: admin@intl-alliance.com
Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members



The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a
registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how
they can be contacted.



MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases,
but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be
more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE
database.



Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the
“country” field in the “inetnum” object:



"It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot
therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to
countries"



As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with
accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP
addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that
information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind
be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE)
but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level
instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the
system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information.



MaxMind do not “make up” their information, they calculate it from
multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data
derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind’s algorithms.



Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which
is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind
database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for
corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no
obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to
reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading
for any reason.



Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds’ customers and
thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is
useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result.
Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind’s best interest to keep their
database as accurate and up to date as possible.



As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind
could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their
minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same
way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the
location and details of the end user.



Edward Dore
Freethought Internet

On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin@intl-alliance.com wrote:



I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If
all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information
they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more
because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to
gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they
produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my
end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the
appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in
end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in
my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself,
which just sent me the following email regarding this situation:

Dear Jared,

Thank you for your email.

We value your concern about correct registration details for internet
resources.

However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies
compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE
database in account.
Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the
mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information
are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but
also the reputation of the providers of this data.

And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the
stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from
MaxMind.
https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo

Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting
information in our own tools.

--
Thank you again for bring up this topic.

Kind regards,

Marco Schmidt
RIPE NCC


On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:

That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've
spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies
over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up
entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run
proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never
proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open
proxies as they are totally different.


           I think your issue is more a business model problem than
a registry or IP problem.

           What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind
providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers
rather than the location of users computers connected to them.
Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location
of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown.

           So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to
provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to
obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed
for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And
nothing in this has to do with RIPE.


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