Murat, you're right on point. But what charging scheme do you propose? Denys has detailed other RIRs successful tiered charging schemes in the thread. On Sat, 31 May 2025, 09:23 Murat Terzioglu | PREBITS, < m.terzioglu@prebits.de> wrote:
You claim that the voices of small members will be weakened. But what you don’t realize is this: our voices were never strong to begin with.
1.5 years ago, votes were collected against the new charging scheme. However, the GM went ahead with their own decision anyway. And what was the argument? A “stable future”…
You still don’t understand, and you keep distorting the direction of the issue.
There is a fact here:
IPv4 has monetary value on the market.
The big players are turning this into profit,
but it’s the small players who are paying the price.
As a small player, I pay €1850 for a single /24 subnet — which is all I need.
What benefit does RIPE provide me in return?
I can already hear some saying: ‘Then go to another RIR…’
RIPE NCC is managing its resources unfairly. That’s a fact.
Can someone compare IPv4 or IPv4 resources to something from everyday life?
We say: these resources are not ours, they are public resources! Yet, despite this, we can still turn them into profit — paying the same amount as someone who “owns” only a /24, while someone else a /16 or bigger.
They’re not ours, yet these resources are being sold on the market. They can be leased. And we can see the amounts being charged.
I compare these resources to land or property. If anyone has a better analogy, please share it.
I have just 450 square meters of land — enough for a single-family house. Imagine someone else has 1,000,000 square meters — they own land the size of an entire city. And we both pay the same tax. How is that fair? What benefit do I get out of it? Or let me ask — what’s the point of our voices being equal in volume?
Throughout history, such injustices have led to the downfall of nations.
RIPE NCC is a non-profit organization. People come to it to use the public resources it manages. And we know that the vast majority of members don’t have more than 5x /24 subnets. Honestly, most of them have no other expectations from RIPE NCC beyond access to these resources. They don’t use any of its other services.
Yet, we distribute €40 million in annual expenses equally among all of them.
On the other hand, many of the members using these resources — especially the larger ones — are commercial entities. And they generate significant profits from these resources. Why? Just because they became members 20 years ago.
They’re using public resources for commercial gain, and under the mask of a non-profit model, we’re making small members pay for it — spreading the cost over everyone..
If members are able to generate enorm big commercial profits from these resources, then they should pay their share accordingly.
There’s no point in holding back just because Dutch law might consider this ‘commercial income’. The Netherlands is a strong country — one that knows and enforces commercial law very well.
And if the law does see it that way, then maybe that is the right and fair approach.
However, I truly believe these resources are public resources. Because without them, the internet simply doesn’t function. It doesn’t work.
If these resources are essential, then they should not be treated as commercial assets. But if members are making such significant profits from them, then a fair compensation model must be created.
*And I openly criticize RIPE NCC for failing to create such a model.* To be honest, I don’t even think RIPE NCC truly cares about this.
Sometimes, not even 10% of members participate in the elections. You keep researching the reasons… but for 20 years, you haven’t managed to succeed.
Let me share my personal opinion:
Some members simply don’t care anymore because of the injustice.
And others — well, they’re perfectly happy. They’re comfortably using the resources, so they see no reason to bother with any of this
--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards
*Murat TERZIOGLU* *PREBITS - Premium Business IT Solutions*
Bochumer Str. 20 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Bochumer+Str.+20+D-44866+Bochum?entry=gmail&source=g>
D-44866 Bochum <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Bochumer+Str.+20+D-44866+Bochum?entry=gmail&source=g>
Telefon: 0234/58825994
Telefax: 0234/58825995
www.prebits.de
m.terzioglu@prebits.de
USt-ID: DE315418902
Am 30.05.2025 um 22:12 schrieb Daniel Pearson <daniel@privatesystems.net>:
I'll state what no one else has in very simple terms.
The moment your single /24 LIR pays 100 EUR /year because it's small and the LIR with a /8 pays 100,000 EUR /year is the moment your voice will get taken away.
The best way to motivate corporations of that size to get interested is to charge them ridiculous amounts of money. Mark my words, RIPE would be easily taken over and controlled by the top 10-20 resource holders if you ever tried to charge per /24 , and they'd make sure your voice is never heard again.
It's simple really, if you want an equal voice in the direction of RIPE, then everyone needs to pay the same amount. If you want to watch your privileges get stripped away, try and change that to where you charge by the /24.
Daniel~
On 5/30/25 1:48 PM, Jean Salim wrote:
Just to clarify so there's no misinformation. This thread's not about taking anybody's IPv4 allocations and redistributing it. It's about large resource holders paying their fair annual maintenance share. One of the LIRs I represent has only ONE /24 or 256 IPs that they purchased, they pay 1850 EUR a year to ripe which is a substantial amount in a country like Lebanon. While LIRs that have hundrends or even thousands of /24s pay the same 1850 EUR amount while if they closed their businesses and rent their IPS out, they would make hundreds of thousands of Euros anually.
On Fri, 30 May 2025, 20:11 Jean Salim, <jean@bsmart-isp.net> wrote:
You are intentionally misleading this discussion, please open a new thread about IPv6 transition and discuss this subject with whom you want to. This thread's title is clearly about the charging scheme, not about IPv4 distribution nor about IPv6 transition.
On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 8:07 PM Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,
Each time there's a discussion about resource holders paying their fair share according to their resource holdings at RIPE, like other RIR, you take the discussion towards an unrelated subject that is IPv6
On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 07:58:00PM +0300, Jean Salim wrote: transition.
This is the only relevant discussion. There is not enough IPv4 available to fulfill all the demands people have - very simple math.
So whatever we do will just result in more squabbling and complaints from other people that "THIS IS ALL SO UNFAIR" - yes, this is why we made IPv6 policies where every but the most large LIRs can have more address space than they will ever need, by asking politely.
Guess what, we knew 15+ years ago that IPv4 would not last, and made policies where networks voluntarily(!) restricted themselves(!) so late comers could still have some space, to help with the transition. That space is now gone, transition has not been done, and - surprise - we see complaints that IPv4 is not distributed fairly.
Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Karin Schuler, Sebastian Cler Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen+14?entry=gmail&source=g> Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/