Hi Nick,

I understand your reasoning and we had this discussion at the GM at the previous meeting.

On 25/03/15 12:59, Nick Hilliard wrote:

Elvis,

the past history of charging/not charging for ASNs is unfortunate, but what
happened in the past cannot be changed.  What's important now is putting in
a stable long-term mechanism for the future.

We have a different understanding of what is important. To me, what is important is that we do not keep changing from one year to an other (or every 3 years) the charging scheme. Doing so will only say that the RIPE NCC Board is unpredictable in what they will do with the charging scheme and will affect businesses of all the members of the RIPE NCC.

If things change every few years, off course, the LIRs will blame it on the RIPE NCC (and not the Board or some of it's members) and that will lead to the NCC having a bad name amongs the LIR's customers.


Mandating the NCC to chase sponsoring LIRs about their customers' ASN usage
habits is massively inefficient from an organisational point of view and
from the point of view of a LIR, it sounds like yet more irritation and
hassle.  If you like irritation and hassle, fine.  Personally I could do
with less in my life.

Let's agree to disagree. I think it will be more efficient if the RIPE NCC will ping (maybe yearly) the Sponsoring LIRs of ASNs not in use and ask them if any of those customers will want to return the unused resources.


We can all acknowledge that no garbage collection mechanism is going to be
100% efficient.  Charging a minimal fee is a pretty good balance between
end-goal efficiency and cost recovery.

Again, I do not agree with this point of view and it seems that from the feedback at the GM, the discussions on the hallway and the e-mails on this mailing list - there is no consensus on your suggestion. It is not only me saying this, it is also the Board.

It also creates the situation that
the decision to return unused ASNs is entirely up to the LIR /end-user and
that the NCC doesn't need to get involved in that decision making process.

Well, the decision to return unused ASNs will always be the one of the organisation to which the ASN was assigned to. Either way, their Sponsoring LIR will still need to open a ticket with the RIPE NCC and the organisation will be required to confirm the return of the resource. If the RIPE NCC does the first step or if the LIR does the first step, it does not really matter.

Furthermore, I am not sure if you are aware of the current procedures and the inefficient way the RIPE NCC handles independent resource returns/reclaims/de-registrations at this moment. Let me tell you my experience.. Let's say we do as you recommend and we add a charge per ASN. Then a company stops paying for the maintenance of an ASN to an LIR. The LIR will notify the RIPE NCC that they do not want to be the Sponsoring LIR for the resource (because the end user stopped paying). From that moment, you are saying that the garbage collection mechanism should start. The RIPE NCC will notify the end user that they need to find an other Sponsoring LIR (and pay for the maintenance) and give the end user about a month (I think it's 20 working days) to do so. Then, the RIPE NCC will start a de-registration process that requires continuous messages sent to the end user, then to anyone that may have their contact details - a process that lasts 3 months and takes a lot of time from the RIPE NCC's IPRAs.

Do you really think this process will be better than the one where the RIPE NCC notifies the involved parties that an ASN is not in use and could be returned and leave it for those parties to reply and decide?

The NCC currently chases the independent resource holders and that process is painful for all the parties, my suggestion is not to create the same hassle for ASNs and instead ask the NCC to just ping the organisations that do not use the ASNs that were assigned.. just ping and not chase..


Please bear in mind that the RIPE NCC is a registry, not a nanny.

noted :)

Regards,
Elvis

Nick


On 25/03/2015 00:55, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote:

Hi,

not sure if this message will get to the mailing list (a previous one
did not because I was subscribed with an other -generic- e-mail address
to the members-discuss mailing list).

A charge per ASN is, from my point of view, not a very effective garbage
collection mechanism.

Additionally, changing the charging scheme again by adding a fee in
2016, after it was initially added in 2009 and removed in 2012 shows
only an inconsistent Board with not a clear idea of the charging scheme.
Once we (the members) have taken a decision, let's not change it
(because some policy may in the future be otherwise abused) unless
something has happened to request us to rethink the charging scheme.

I think we need to find a method by which the RIPE NCC and/or the LIR
can do the garbage collection/cleanup.
One simple method I can think of is by asking the RIPE NCC to contact
the (Sponsoring) LIR when an ASN disappears from the global routing
table and ask if that ASN can be deleted/returned/reclaimed/reused. This
could easily be done in the LIR portal (automated process) or by e-mail
(human - IPRA).
I do not want to mandate the NCC to chase every ASN not visible in the
routing table, I am suggesting to mandate the NCC to politely contact
the (Sponsoring) LIR, maybe once a year, and ask them if any of their
(or their customers') not in use ASNs could be returned to the free
pool.

my 2 cents
/elvis

Excuse the briefness of this mail, it was sent from a mobile device.

On 25 Mar 2015, at 01:33, Fahad AlShirawi <fahad@gccix.net> wrote:

:) we are both getting older maybe? Alright so... charging scheme stays, and we open an agenda point to consider how best to clean the garbage at the next meeting? 



Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
  Original Message  
From: Sander Steffann
Sent: Wednesday, 25 March 2015 03:25
To: Fahad AlShirawi
Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2016

Hi,

Fair enough. My memory isn't what it used to be am getting old and working on a phone means I can't reference stuff easily :) 

So what's the general feeling here?

Well, after all the feedback I think we're trying to solve this problem the wrong way. There must be better ways than fiddling with the charging scheme. See my message to Sascha.

Cheers!
Sander

P.S. Yes, I know, I seem to be changing my mind a bit, how did that happen? :)


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	Elvis Daniel Velea Chief Executive Officer Email: elvis@V4Escrow.net US Phone: +1 (702) 475 5914 EU Phone: +31 (0) 61458 1914
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