Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme

13 Apr 2023

      Yup, I was also surprised that the seemingly default allocation for v6
was considered a higher category!

Is it really worth it for the NCC to chase people for the difference
between a /32 and a /29? I was under the impression that the /29 was
reserved anyway each time a LIR got a v6 block.

On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 3:13 PM David Brůha <d.bruha@virtis.cz> wrote:
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Hello,
I agree. We are actually renting a server for offsite backups in Canada and the provider charges 1 Euro per month for 1 additional IP address. No way anyone would return unused IPv4 addresses.
But after seeing the new updated calculator we would definitely return part of our IPv6 allocation if the charging scheme category A should be chosen. The "free" enlargement from /32 to /29 suddenly costs 350 Euro per year.
--
Kind regards
David
e-mail: d.bruha@virtis.cz
Dne čtvrtek 30. března 2023 15:22:15 CEST, Kaj Niemi napsal(a):
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It won’t. I believe most will either a) rent out, or b) sell their unused IP
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addresses if it becomes a choice between having to pay for the privilege of
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keeping vs converting them to either continuous (renting out) or onetime
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(sale) revenue.
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LIRs who have an acute IPv4 address deficit will, realistically, need to
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procure more addresses on the free market. That is, if they intend to grow
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their business and not let it stagnate.
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Kaj
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Sent from my iPhone
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________________________________
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From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of José
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Manuel Giner via members-discuss <members-discuss@ripe.net> Sent:
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Wednesday, March 29, 2023 10:14:30 PM
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To: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net>
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Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC
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Charging Scheme
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Hello,
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I think it is very necessary to address the problem of LIRs that need
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IPs in relation to LIRs that have +80% of their IPs unused.
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How to fix? maybe a pay per individual IP model?
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For example: 0.25 €/year per IP.
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I think this will make those who have unused IPs give them back and
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reduce speculation, which I think are the two big problems.
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Thanks!
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--
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José Manuel Giner
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https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fginernet.c
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om%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cfffe6b8d017542a0100f08db311a3cc1%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc9
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23b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638157760994467552%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjo
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iMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&
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sdata=XwY9HPEkXKXBM%2BpxqAxU5OSX6NNV%2FvP46yUJSfQIC0M%3D&reserved=0
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On 17/03/2023 10:24, Simon-Jan Haytink wrote:
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Dear all,
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First off, I apologise for the length of this email, but I hope to cover
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a number of points brought up in the consultation so far.
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I want to thank you again for your input so far on the models. We are
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busy looking at all the feedback. We have also seen over 100 members
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sign up for the Open House next week to discuss this further, so I
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appreciate your interest in helping us to reach a good outcome.
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Looking at the feedback we've seen so far, there are a number of
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questions and points raised where I can help to add clarity and also
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answer some specific questions.
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1. Some of you asked for a breakdown of the IPv4 address space held by
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LIRs to help with your consideration of a category-based model. So here
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is a chart with that information:
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https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe
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.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmail%2Fmember-and-community-consultations%2Fdistribut
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ion-of-total-allocated-ipv4-per-lir.png&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cfffe6b8d017542a0
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100f08db311a3cc1%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638157760994
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623871%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI
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6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5gCFELEOWGX6ULpsEGUdpHHcczGA
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ij3nMotVAWCFKXg%3D&reserved=0
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I’d like to note that in the models we are developing, we are looking to
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move to a model that charges per member rather than per LIR account. So
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I also have an indicative spread of how many members would be in each
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category in the model we shared:
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https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe
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.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmail%2Fmember-and-community-consultations%2Fmember-sp
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read-across-categories.png&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cfffe6b8d017542a0100f08db311a3
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cc1%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638157760994623871%7CUnkn
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own%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJX
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VCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=McgLLf5YS41Pc47Zbhz95myWZLA8TKDx0Jku5FjY2
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Ao%3D&reserved=0
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2. To clarify what determines the category someone is placed within in
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the model I shared, it is the highest score for just one of the
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following types of resource:
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- IPv4 allocations
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- IPv6 allocations
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- ASN assignments
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- Independent resources (includes all resource assignments not in the
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previous three categories, including all sponsored items)
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Note: Independent resources are charged by number of assignments rather
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than by the amount of IPs within the assignment.
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So if your highest score is for IPv4 allocations, then the amount for
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IPv6 allocations, ASNs or independent resources does not contribute to
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the category you are placed in. The highest score of the four defines
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the category. The elements that we charge for in the categories or
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separately can of course change or be refined based on your feedback.
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3. Another person asked for comparison with other RIR charging schemes,
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and I provide links to the information on their websites:
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APNIC:
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https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.apn
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ic.net%2Fget-ip%2Fapnic-membership%2Fhow-much-does-it-cost%2F&data=05%7C01
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%7C%7Cfffe6b8d017542a0100f08db311a3cc1%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%
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7C0%7C0%7C638157760994623871%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL
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CJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PJ%2BC
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PI4x8eDbknzv%2BjShaOX9n1%2Bs0sCt6ZhmtVffjMU%3D&reserved=0 ARIN:
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https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ari
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n.net%2Fresources%2Ffees%2Ffee_schedule%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cfffe6b8d01754
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2a0100f08db311a3cc1%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638157760
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994623871%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJB
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TiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TAFgtin8UkyHacIE9%2F%2B06
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0Yc%2BYrCoBdbeJlplnza7oU%3D&reserved=0 AFRINIC:
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https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fafrinic
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.net%2Fmembership%2Fcost%23resource&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cfffe6b8d017542a0100f
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08db311a3cc1%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C6381577609946238
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71%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1
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haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=cb4Aaz%2FYHRUTS49YAvLPQzjeXNE5Pm
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UZ1B1MVD%2BFMYM%3D&reserved=0 LACNIC:
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https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lac
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nic.net%2F2399%2F2%2Flacnic%2Fmembership-fees-and-categories&data=05%7C01%
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7C%7Cfffe6b8d017542a0100f08db311a3cc1%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7
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C0%7C0%7C638157760994623871%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
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JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CIQB4Nf
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tyPEkV4x7BuT7dPlDIJNxyLMtFtuqGAiI0j4%3D&reserved=0
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4. There was a question on how we charge for those who are still on the
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waiting list and have not yet received any IPv4 address space. We are
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still looking at how this might work and it is something I can bring up
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during the Open House. Potentially, there could be a base membership fee
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and another fee once IPv4 resources are received.
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5. There was a request for comment on the idea that the RIPE NCC had
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permitted multiple LIRs in order to allow some members to receive more
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address space. In fact, the members themselves voted at the General
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Meeting to allow this in 2016. There had been a resolution by the
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Executive Board to stop the creation of multiple LIR accounts in 2015;
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there was a lengthy discussion about this and the Board therefore asked
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the members to discuss the issue and make a decision on the matter in
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2016.
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Board Resolution:
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https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe
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.net%2Fpublications%2Fnews%2Fannouncements%2Fboard-resolution-to-suspend-c
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reation-of-multiple-lir-accounts&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cfffe6b8d017542a0100f08d
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b311a3cc1%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638157760994623871%
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7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haW
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wiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2jAWk7ZRZjTNSlfqpVwX648Bu1kwsfXvXvC
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LRGD1xWE%3D&reserved=0
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Membership Vote:
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https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe
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.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmeetings%2Fgm%2Fmeetings%2Fmay-2016&data=05%7C01%7C%7
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Cfffe6b8d017542a0100f08db311a3cc1%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7
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C0%7C638157760994623871%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIj
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oiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VefCoEB5Mso
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WARWN1HNe7c441x1uUHDXXcNy%2BXR6naU%3D&reserved=0
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Finally, there was a comment that we need to achieve a balance between
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fairness and complexity. This comment really resonates with me, given
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that there are possibly as many ways to charge as there are IPv6
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addresses. At the Open House next week, I plan to present updated models
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that take as much of your feedback as possible into account, and of
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course I'll share that information afterwards with the full membership.
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Charging Scheme 2024 Open House:
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https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe
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.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmeetings%2Fopen-house%2Fripe-ncc-open-house-charging-
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scheme-2024-consultation&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cfffe6b8d017542a0100f08db311a3cc
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1%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638157760994623871%7CUnknow
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n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVC
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I6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=OGs8lfe9V5NrsDKah9IijvLUu9pT57qicuzQ0A7Vx1s
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%3D&reserved=0
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Kind regards,
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Simon Jan Haytink
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Finance Director
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RIPE NCC
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_______________________________________________
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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme

Ben Cartwright-Cox