as for your "not making 50 euros a year" remark: its potentially possible for a natural person to obtain pi space and an AS number for his home network (provided he has that many equipment to cover the minimum announcable space of /24 ofcourse), we as a LIR would not object to registering such, neither does RIPE. profitability does not come into question. LIRs distribute IP space according to -need- not to -profitability- also, customers of a LIR usually have agreed to pay the -registration- fees of the LIR, in some cases they may have paid nothing at all (associations, home users, etc) in case the LIR was like "oh we can well cover this without going up a catagory in the scoring algorithm". also, PI allocations on IPv4 are usually pretty small anyway and not worth "recovery" as opposed to some old PRE-RIR blocks which are also assigned to ripe, held by some larger organisations, which are usually not even routed on the internet or severely firewalled. point remains: there is -no- legal basis on which to bill existing PI customers or on wich to force them to engage in a new contract, besides the already fulfilled contract to "register ip space" for them, its quite close to blackmail if the "threat" includes to remove their allocations if they dont enter into a new recurring-payment contract (even if the lir would pay for it and not charge the customer, the customer still has to enter into a new contract, with which they potentially could have issues. -- Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Thu, 18 Jun 2009, Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote:
The product that the customer buys of the LIR should be giving more than 50 EUR/year revenue, if not, you might not be in business for long.
LIRS are NOT isps!
the "product" bought from a LIR is the registration of IP space, usually at at one-time single payment that covered the increase in the billing score for 2 years if applicable and the administrative work.
there are no "services" or "products" a LIR normally sells.
and there also is no question of "circumventing ripe membership fees" as those only apply to LIRs (that is, people willing to register IP space for others).
the fact that -most- LIRs are part of an ISP or even some ASPs that fell for ripes jedi-mind-trick and became a LIR themselves, doesnt mean they HAVE to be part of an ISP.
--
Sven Olaf Kamphuis CB3ROB DataServices
Phone: +31/87-8747479 Skype: CB3ROB MSN: sven@cb3rob.net C.V.: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cb3rob
Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
On Thu, 18 Jun 2009, Martin List-Petersen wrote:
Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote:
It's not charging retroactively. Retroactively charging for the PI space would be sending invoices out for every year from '92 to to date, which is not happening.
What is happening that the price has changed from 0 to 50 EUR/year (well, the draft price).
mind you that PI registrants never agreed to any contract that allows "price changes" and that "choosing" to have their allocations removeed instead of either paying a LIR, with whom they would usually have an agreement that only covers a one time payment, or several thousand euros to ripe directly, OR GIVE UP THEIR ALLOCATIONS and therefore cause significant damage to their business :P is pure blackmail.
you cant first tell someone "sure we will register ip sppace for your company, please pay 2500 euros which covers our work and the first 2 years in which potentially our ripe-score could be affected by this registration (PI and AS numbers only count for 2 years in the score), and then go "oops, now you have to either pay a few 1000 to ripe OR a few hundred to us (most customers have as numberrs AND PI space)"...
Not necessarily. It's a change of the market and certainly not good practice. It's like an ISP adjusting the price upwards on a broadband package. The problem is, there's no competition to move to or well there is .. because it depends what the LIR charges the end-user or if the LIR just takes the 50 EUR and basically writes it off.
The product that the customer buys of the LIR should be giving more than 50 EUR/year revenue, if not, you might not be in business for long.
Honestly this discussion is pretty much about chump change in the bigger scheme.
The ones that get hit are the ones that abused the PI scheme to not pay for PA or RIPE membership. For everyone else it's pretty much something that falls under the table. It's 4.17EUR/month per allocation. If you don't make that kindda money of your PI customers on top of your cost, your business isn't viable. And yeah .. you can just charge it on to them or eat the cost. Latter wouldn't make a difference to the customer as long as they are with you.
And before you ask, We've got a few PI allocations ourselves and I couldn't care less about 50 EUR each a year. If that is, what it takes, to get people to give ressources back, then that's that.
Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen -- Airwire - Ag Nascadh Pobail an Iarthair http://www.airwire.ie Phone: 091-865 968
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