I'm glad others have also understood the problem with increasing fees while the number of members is falling. I like to think I'm foresighted,
some might call me cynical, but that means spend needs to be constrained. The RIR system is not an example of "to make money one needs to spend money" (like businesses that have a flywheel with an ad component).
Let's do some napkin math and comps with the other RIRs. I chose to normalize AUD and EUR to USD so comparing is easy. Revenue figures are latest available from public sources as are the membership numbers. Numbers rounded to whatever was closest
and convenient. Assumption that all have roughly budgets that coincide with their expenditure.
RIPE, revenue 38M EUR (40M USD), members 20k = 2 k/member
ARIN, revenue 25M USD, members 25k = 1 k/member
APNIC, revenue 33M AUD (21M USD), members 10k = 2 k/member
LACNIC, revenue 10M USD, members 12k = 0.8 k/member
AFRINIC, revenue 6M USD, members 2k = 3 k/member
All RIRs together end up with an annual revenue of 100M USD and about 70k organizations as customers. Didn't bother summarizing total assets but they'll the total assets to revenue (sales) is at least 1.
Now, in my opinion, there are a few surprises. ARIN, located in a very expensive country, is quite efficient per member. PPP wise USA and NL are about the same meaning their cost base should also be rather similar.
Ceteris paribus, etc. US inflation is Y/Y probably on the level of NL, too.
In principle there should be some kind of economies of scale in most lines of businesses where, once reached, the marginal cost is below the average production cost. The RIRs do not seem to work that way for some strange reason...
or they do in the registry function but as for other functions they do not.
On the other hand, AFRINIC seems to be rather inefficient.
Is there a point to this? Probably not considering there are too many people who do not want to rock the status quo. Also, considering one needs 400+ signatures to change something it is rather impossible to shake the establishment. It is what
it is, we can voice our opinions but in the end they're just that.
If you're unhappy with the financial policy, pretty much the only option is, in the AGM, to vote
against adopting the next year's scheme and against discharging the EB. The numbers against tend to be somewhere between 10% and 20% so they're mostly protest votes in my opinion.
Anyway, happy to revisit the topic again next spring. đź‘Ť
From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net> on behalf of Petru Bunea <suport@bunea.eu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2024 5:46 PM
To: Daniel Pearson <daniel@privatesystems.net>
Cc: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net>
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic)
No, actually RIPE is a hybrid between transalators, lawyers / legal, technical, accounting, event and PR, running critical infra etc.
And yes, what now can be done with 40mil used to be done with 25 mil in 2019. Everything got more expensive, get used to it.
Perhaps RIPE team can adjust here and there, but I honestly don’t see the budget to be able to drop more than 20%. So the question is where do we take those 20% from, because if we raise the prices high enough, IPv4 allocation would migrate to
other RIRs, which in turn will mean more work and on the long run - less income, and after that of course - raise taxes again.
Thanks
Everybody is still fighting about the wrong question.
The question everyone should be arguing about is why it costs 40 million a year to run an internet registry for 20,000~ members.
Sure, the bulk of the expense is due to navigating the legal landscape of multiple member nations, but you can't tell me that's 20-30 million a year in legal fee's.
On 4/16/24 9:31 AM, Petru Bunea wrote:
Where have I said it should be 1 EUR across the board?
It doesn’t have to be 1 EUR, but it also doesn’t have to be 333 the difference. It can be progressively cheaper, but not at such a large difference.
Also, FYI, UK Gov or any Gov, could always put back IPv4 if they find it to be too expensive. Just like they force people and companies to put back on the market real estate that have a very high yearly tax. How would that work out for a change?
Call this a tax hike on public property, like IP addresses. Maybe they would in fact like it, since it’s their way of doing business.
Otherwise, with this model, we will just move the burden from the big ISP/companies/resource holders to the smaller ones.
Thanks.
I'd like to see you tell the UK Government that they are going to pay 1 Euro per IP for a /8
Let me know how that conversation goes :)
On 4/16/24 9:20 AM, Petru Bunea wrote:
This is NOT a good example. In this example we see how a /22 allocation pays 1094 EUR per year, which is close to 1 EUR / 1 IP / Year, and a /8 allocation pays 48.000 EUR, which is 0.003 EURO / 1 IP / Year, which is 333 times
less expensive. So tell me again how this is a good example.
Thanks
very
good example Sebastian
Others
are doing it and Europe should too
We
should be pioneers and we are in the Middle Ages.
We
are chipping away at such obvious issues from others.
The
fixed fee for the LIR Account + the resource fee can stay
they
need to be calculated
But
necessarily, as you pointed out, IP usage should be accounted for
Pozdrawiam
Gabriel
Sulka
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www.kompex.pl ; bok@kompex.pl ; kompex@nowytarg.net
-----Original
Message-----
From:
members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net>
On Behalf Of
Sebastien
Brossier
Sent:
Tuesday, April 16, 2024 3:51 PM
To: members-discuss@ripe.net
Subject:
[members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic)
Hello
all,
I
propose to add the following model to the charging scheme 2025 voting
options.
*1
- Introduction:*
This
charging scheme is heavily inspired by APNIC. If you are not
familiar
with this, you can see an example here:
https://www.apnic.net/get-ip/apnic-membership/how-much-does-it-cost/member-f
ees-calculator/
The
main idea is that each LIR pays according to its resources, but not
linearly.
You don't pay twice as much because you have twice as much
resources.
The
resulting fees are similar to what the other RIRs are charging, with
infinite
granularity (no categories).
It
can be easily tweaked to reach any desired budget, and will remain
viable
when IPv4 has disappeared.
I
have made IPv6 less punitive compared to APNIC, because RIPE has
larger
initial allocations.
Independent
resources fees, sign-up fee, lack of ASN fee, remain as
before
in this proposal. I believe it is better to have a separate
debate
on these subjects at a later time.
The
goal of this charging scheme is to lower the cost for members with a
very
low amount of resources, in order to attract newcomers and retain
existing
members. This way the RIPE NCC membership will remain numerous
and
diverse.
*2
- Charging scheme:*
(Warning:
math incoming !)
IPv4_count
= number of IPv4 addresses allocated
(excluding
independent assignments and legacy)
IPv6_count
= number of IPv6 /56 subnets allocated
(excluding
independent assignments)
Base_Fee
= 638 EUR
Bit_Factor
= 1.31
Minimum_Fee
= 500 EUR
Offset_IPv4
= 8
Offset_IPv6
= 24
IPv4_Fee
= Base_Fee * Bit_Factor^(log2(IPv4_count) - Offset_IPv4)
IPv6_Fee
= Base_Fee * Bit_Factor^(log2(IPv6_count) - Offset_IPv6)
Fee
= max(IPv4_Fee, IPv6_Fee, Minimum_Fee)
+
50 EUR per independent resource (excluding ASN)
My
simulation, based on public data (2024-03-28), results in an average
fee
of 1900 EUR per LIR (+ 50 EUR per independent resource), so it
should
provide the same budget as the other options.
If
RIPE NCC find different results with their simulation, they can
adjust
Base_Fee.
*3
- Examples:*
50
EUR per independent resource should be added to all these fees.
No
allocations:
500
EUR
IPv4
/24 and/or IPv6 /32:
638
EUR
IPv4
/23 and/or IPv6 /31:
835
EUR
IPv4
/22 and/or IPv6 /30:
1094
EUR
IPv4
/21 and/or IPv6 /29:
1434
EUR
IPv4
/20 and/or IPv6 /28:
1878
EUR
IPv4
/19 and/or IPv6 /27:
2461
EUR
IPv4
/18 and/or IPv6 /26:
3224
EUR
IPv4
/17 and/or IPv6 /25:
4223
EUR
IPv4
/16 and/or IPv6 /24:
5533
EUR
IPv4
/15 and/or IPv6 /23:
7248
EUR
IPv4
/14 and/or IPv6 /22:
9495
EUR
IPv4
/13 and/or IPv6 /21:
12439
EUR
IPv4
/12 and/or IPv6 /20:
16295
EUR
IPv4
/11 and/or IPv6 /19:
21347
EUR
IPv4
/10 and/or IPv6 /18:
27965
EUR
IPv4
/9 and/or IPv6 /17:
36634
EUR
IPv4
/8 and/or IPv6 /16:
47991
EUR
Largest
LIR is just below 60 kEUR.
There
are no categories, so your fee can be somewhere between these numbers.
If
you think the fees are too high, I invite you to read the fee
schedule
of the other RIRs.
Thank
you if you've read this far.
Best
regards,
Sebastien
Brossier
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