May 2024 - members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

Questions to RIPE NCC in light of last GM
by Hans Petter Holen 30 May '24

30 May '24

Dear all, I would like to thank the members for their input over the previous weeks, and especially during the General Meeting last week. We have received a lot of input from the members and community that we have taken on board, and now begins the work of addressing that feedback. We see the requests for more details on a wide range of topics including on IT infrastructure costs and set-up. Our CTO has written a RIPE Labs article that gives more detail and he also presented at the RIPE Meeting on this topic. Links to both are below: https://labs.ripe.net/author/felipe_victolla_silveira/reducing-the-ripe-ncc… https://ripe88.ripe.net/archives/video/1336/ More information on depreciation and bad debts (and much more besides) is available in the Financial Report 2023 (see pages 17, 18, 32 and 33): https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-821/ We also answered many questions that arose during the recent discussions in the Q&A we provided as part of the charging scheme discussion: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/member-and-community-consultations/cha… We will work to make this Q&A more comprehensive, adding topics outside the charging scheme discussion and adapting it as we see interest in other areas. We are always looking for ways to improve our reporting and we can see how we can publish more information on an ongoing basis through our regular reporting. We are a very transparent organisation, and some of the questions asked on this list are already answered in our documentation or presentations. We will look at ways to make the considerable amount of information we provide easier to find. The goal here should not be transparency for transparency’s sake - we aim to strike the right balance so we can increase trust and understanding of our governance and operations. Providing details on every line item or euro spent costs us a lot of time and effort, and this translates into costs for the members. The people who would work on providing those details also run the organisation or are essential to maintaining services. So we need to prioritise accordingly and work to ensure our regular reporting contains the information you need while carrying out our work to maintain our services. This is perhaps where you can help us. Are there organisations of similar size or type to us who are providing more details than we are? And are they providing it in a more coherent way that makes it easy for you to understand? Let us know. We are always happy to get suggestions or inspiration on how we might do our reporting in a better way. The Executive Board also committed at the General Meeting to discussing ways of involving members in charging scheme proposals, and this will be added to the agenda for the upcoming Board meeting in June. I am now starting the Activity Plan and Budget cycle with my management team, and we will make it a point to include more details there that address the points raised by members. This document will be published at the beginning of October to give members four weeks to comment before the General Meeting on 28 October. We see this process as a good opportunity to provide more details that will help give you an insight into the workings at the RIPE NCC. Best regards, Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC

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Questions to RIPE NCC in light of last GM
by ROSKOMNADZOR LIMITED 28 May '24

28 May '24

Hello. After viewing video from last GM Im have some questions, hope you can help me with it. 1) Was been noticed about RIPE currently hold 46 racks, are possible to know information about that racks? What are servers used? How much power its consume and etc... 2) Are RIPE NCC currently use some sort of "cloud services" - for example Amazon S3 (or similar) and related. If YES - where is possible to found report about how much its used and how much its cost? 3) Are RIPE NCC was been used or evaluate of possibility to start using IBM Z mainframe for mission critical services - like a RIPE Database and etc... what are must have max uptime and max security? If RIPE NCC (not matter CTO all whole RIPE NCC) are evaluate it early - then can are you share your conclusion about it, if not evaluate it early - may I ask about RIPE NCC to make internal evaluation of this and after show conclustion? 4) @hpholen said about RIPE NCC have some "private" NDA contract, but I didnt see any documentation about some sort of "tenders". Are maybe for more transparency RIPE NCC need to do some sort of Request For Tender (RFT) - need some clarification about that. 5) @hpholen said about details related with datacenter contacts under "NDA" - okay, but can RIPE NCC at least reveal information what are datacenters used for A+B locations? Its not related with financial information. 6) RIPE NCC Activity Plan and Budget 2024 have part "IT Support", are its possible to receive max possible detalizations about that spendings? 3.750.000 EUR for sure not smallest part of spendings. 7) RIPE NCC Activity Plan and Budget 2024 have part "Bad Debts and Deprecation", are its possible to receive max possible detalizations about that spendings? As I understand its not a secret/NDA information. Right? Thank you.

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Three appeals by DFK on RIPE community mailing list...
by Jan Zorz - Go6 28 May '24

28 May '24

Hey, I just spotted the Daniel's submission to the RIPE community discuss last week, and in the light of the recent discussions - I thought it would be appropriate to forward it here. https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ripe-list/2024-May/003204.html Cheers, Jan

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Re: [members-discuss] Questions to RIPE NCC in light of last GM
by Jan-Henning Plassmann 26 May '24

26 May '24

+1 Gesendet von Outlook für Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> ________________________________ From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf of Randy Bush <randy(a)psg.com> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2024 7:46:27 PM To: ROSKOMNADZOR LIMITED <admin(a)roskomnadzor.io> Cc: members-discuss(a)ripe.net <members-discuss(a)ripe.net> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Questions to RIPE NCC in light of last GM > No, Im already seen this article. Its same what are was been showed on > GM. Its doesnt have detalization. i, for one, do not want detail. if i wanted to micro-manage the ncc, i would fill out a job application. they have done an amazing job for decades, and i trust them to keep doing so. the extent of the ncc's transparency is often more than i have time read. randy _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss(a)ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/jan.plassmann%40jhp-…

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Sustainability and diversity
by Vaclav Nesvadba 21 May '24

21 May '24

Dear community, I understand that - RIPE needs more money to keep the quality of services - thousands of LIRs create much more work for RIPE team But killing most of the smaller LIRs by very non-linear pricing will LOWER the business competition and finally create very HIGH prices for all Internet end-users and LOW income for RIPE. RIPE team, please try to think about it. I hope, you can find the best way for the sustainability and diversity of the environment ;) -- S přáním hezkého dne / Best regards Václav Nesvadba CTO nesvadba(a)faster.cz | +420 533 433 343 | Jarní 44g, 614 00 Brno | FASTER.CZ

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Recording Available: Meet the Executive Board Candidates
by Fergal Cunningham 17 May '24

17 May '24

Dear all, On Wednesday this week we held the Open House: Meet the RIPE NCC Executive Board Candidates. The recording is now available: https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/meet-the-may-2024-execu… If you want to ask candidates more questions or have them elaborate on their responses at the Open House, please ask them on the EB Candidates mailing list where they are waiting to hear from you. https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/eb-candidates All the best, Fergal

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Executive Board Meeting to Discuss Charging Scheme Input from Members
by Daniel Pearson 17 May '24

17 May '24

Please allow me to summarize this long email. "We hear you members, but we disagree, so we are still going to do what we want to do". Since they will not listen to the proposal voted upon, I move that we as a membership recall all standing board members and hold new elections for all seats. It is clear that the board is NOT listening to it's members. We can certainty do that with a proposal can we not Ondřej? Daniel~ On 5/7/24 8:54 AM, Ondřej Filip wrote: > Dear members, > > On 6 May, 2024, the Executive Board held a meeting to discuss the > input we received from members regarding the Board proposal for the > RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. We will publish the minutes as soon as > possible, but I want to first give you a summary of the discussions > and the outcomes from the meeting. > > Since we started engaging with the membership on the charging scheme > this year, we have received over 400 emails on the topic. For the > first time, we also have a member proposal for a GM agenda topic that > has received the required number of expressions of support to be added > to the GM agenda. Therefore, we felt it was important for the Board to > have this extra meeting, review the various points that were brought > forward, and consider the next steps in this process. There were many > important points to discuss at this meeting, and although the outcome > might not please everyone, the Board was fully aligned on how it > should move forward. > > First, we considered again what we had decided upon at the Board > meeting in March. The Board consciously did not put forward a proposal > to keep the charging scheme as it is because we don’t believe that it > would be good governance to make a proposal that leaves us with a > large deficit, and good governance is what is expected from us by the > members who elect us. > > Furthermore, some of the suggestions from members would change the > funding model in a way that would put the organisation at risk, and > while the Board represents the members, it also has legal and > fiduciary responsibilities towards the organisation. It is clear that > one of the main responsibilities of the Board is to propose a charging > scheme that will properly fund the association, and the charging > scheme options we put forward will do that for 2025 and 2026. So we > will put forward the three options as proposed on 24 April 2024 for > members to vote on at the GM[1]. > > There were many proposals to provide that funding in alternative ways. > However, we believe that this is not the right time to make > fundamental changes to the charging model. We are about to embark on a > full review of the organisation and its structures, and that will take > some time. For us to implement that review and any resulting actions, > we need stable funding. All three of the proposed options offer us > this. We also note that the redistribution mechanism allows us to > return any surplus made to the membership in the following year should > members vote to do so. The Board and the Managing Director will also > continue to work to improve efficiency and identify areas for cost > savings. > > We did consider moving this vote to later in the year, but this would > negatively impact our planning for 2025, and it would also distract > from the very important discussions we need to have with members > during the Activity Plan and Budget process this Autumn. During that > discussion, we do expect that the members who are convinced that the > RIPE NCC needs to reduce its budget will tell us which services need > to be reduced or cut in order to accommodate such a reduction. > > At our meeting, the Board also discussed the structural review that > will take place. This will begin at the RIPE 88 Meeting in two weeks > with a BoF on how to build a stable future for the RIPE NCC. We expect > that there will be a productive discussion on many issues that need to > be resolved so that the RIPE NCC can move forward stably and with a > funding model that has the support of its membership. We will keep the > membership updated on the outcomes of those discussions and how the > members can contribute to the work that will surely emerge from them. > > Regarding the membership proposal[2], we acknowledge that the > threshold was met to add the GM agenda topic “Keep current billing > scheme for the next year”. We will add this as a topic to the agenda > as required by the Articles of Association. However, this will not be > added as a proposed resolution for members to vote on. Articles 15.4, > 15.5 and 15.6 of the RIPE NCC Articles of Association do not allow > members to propose a Charging Scheme, as reaffirmed by the external > law firm that gives us expert advice on Dutch corporate law. > > This legal framework ensures that a Charging Scheme may only be > proposed by those who were elected to serve on the Executive Board, > who have better insight into the financials and the operations of the > organisation, and who have a duty of care for the well-being of the > organisation and are liable in case of mismanagement. Parties without > such insight, responsibility and liability may not put forward > charging schemes for voting that - although appealing for individual > members - may be inappropriate for the sustainability of the > organisation. > > To summarise, the Board recognises the member sentiment and we are > committed to addressing it for the long term. However, we must do what > we believe is best for the stability of the organisation and its > membership, even if it is not an easy or popular thing to do. This is > what is required of us when we legally commit to be Board members, and > we will faithfully execute on our commitments in this regard. > > We listen to your feedback and ideas, and on behalf of the Board I > thank you for engaging in these important discussions and look forward > to seeing them continue as we work towards a sustainable outcome for > the RIPE NCC. > > The RIPE NCC Executive Board > > Ondřej Filip, Chair > Raymond Jetten, Treasurer > Piotr Strzyżewski, Secretary > Maria Häll, Member > Remco van Mook, Member > Job Snijders, Member > Harald A. Summa, Member > > [1] > https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/documentation… > > [2] https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/member-proposals/ >

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Mortal Kombat over fees? Proposal.
by Denys Fedoryshchenko 16 May '24

16 May '24

Proposal to RIPE members actively participating in heated discussions on the mailing list. I think new ideas sort of dried up, so it's time to take a break and let the dust settle. Current discussion degraded mostly to same ideas as before, just with different wording and now with NEW(tm) feature - mutual insults. It's not productive anymore, and it's not fun anymore. Let's summarize the discussion so far. I might be bold on some statement, but better to say truth than to sugarcoat it. - People very angry not just about fees increase, but lack of proper communication and transparency about whole budgeting process. - Many also have perception that answers of RIPE NCC employees and RIPE EB are inappropriate and not addressing concerns of members. - Many members have concerns that fees structure are not fair, by several reasons: some members hold very large resources and do a lot of transactions, but pay same as small LIRs; some members have concerns that fees are not fair to their country's economy; some members don't want to fund projects they don't see as useful. - Last tiered proposal was not appreciated, but not because people don't want tiered fees, but because it was not well thought out and mixed with other changes. - We are not offered option "None of the above" in budget voting, which is again very angry point for many members. - For many years many members didn't care about what is happening in RIPE NCC, they put their trust in RIPE NCC and EB, and now they feel betrayed. - Certain RIPE members blindly defend all RIPE NCC and EB actions, and attack anyone who dares to criticize them. This is not productive and not helpful. They went to such extent that they started to insult other members, which is not acceptable. We either work for better future, or if you want to be enemies, be my guest, but this will be very bad for RIPE NCC and RIPE community. Also i want to underscore that RIPE NCC, EB, RIPE "supporters" are not our enemies. They are our partners in this community. We all want better future for RIPE community, and we all want RIPE NCC to be successful. But we have different opinions on how to achieve this. We need to find common ground and work together to achieve this. Let's say we swallow the bitter pill and accept that fees will increase. We can't avoid it now, but in return we demand from RIPE NCC and EB certain changes. My proposal is to set clear goals: - RIPE NCC and EB should clearly understand, if they are just trying to win time and wait until situation calms down, and do business as usual, consequences will be very bad for RIPE NCC. This time we will not forget, and will demand roadmap of changes with clear deadlines. And if they are not done and we will see it is just a trick, we will demand changes in RIPE NCC staff and leadership or go to extreme measures. - We demand to have more control over budgeting process, and not just to vote on limited budget options proposed by RIPE EB. We want to have more say in budgeting process, to participate in task forces, etc. - As RIPE members funding RIPE NCC activities, we have full right to demand accountability and match modern standards of transparency and governance not only for budgeting, but for all RIPE processes, from core activities, to projects, purchases, hiring, etc. - Many RIPE NCC projects are beneficial for world, but barely for members. This have to change and details discussed. If fees are increased, we want return on investment. - The fact that some of projects are flawed, and some has no proper report to members for 2 years, is not acceptable. If project does not bother to report to members, it means it is not important for members, and should be stopped. We demand to have more control over projects, and to have more say in projects funding. If project clearly show neglect to members and goals set together with members, it should be stopped. Now, i wonder, did anybody read this long email? :) Let's move to Telegram chat https://t.me/ripe_budget_talks and start collecting and writing down ideas.

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How can I vote against Charging Scheme A, B and C
by Mikael Jirari 16 May '24

16 May '24

Hello everyone, I see so many discussions to end with what ? An increasing charging scheme with A, B, C more or less the same. I don't understand that so much time is taken by the RIPE executive board and people on the mailling list to end with more or less the same scheme. I agree with some voices here. Some members have large amount of IPv4 IP adresses and are big buisnesses and have been around for a long time. They retain these IPv4 and/or don't pay their fair part: Their cost per IP are very low, they have the money to pay these IPv4 or release them if they want. On top of that, RIPE increase the charging by 20% This charging is a joke ! It's like you are in a bar and there are 3 options on the menu: normal coke, sugar free coke, cherry coke. What's the point ? => How can I vote against these A, B, C proposals ? a) LIR fee should be lower and packaged with 1 x /24 IPv4 + 1 x /32 IPv6 in terms of price. b) Big IPv4 owners should pay that 20% increase of RIPE budget and handle the cost of a) Regards ********************************* This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and intended solely for the addressees. Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited. Messages are susceptible to alteration. Expertinet shall not be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified. If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel it immediately and inform the sender. ********************************

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[ncc-announce] [GM] 2024/2025 Budget and IPv4 problems
by sdy＠a-n-t.ru 16 May '24

16 May '24

Hi, All. I would like again to point in: budget growth in the face of rising inflation will be inevitable! We don't need now to solve the budget rise problem. We need now to solve the problem of executing the main RIPE and NCC functions. Initially, the community was created and we joined as its members to organize an open and stable inter-network interaction. But in the end, we got a structure that requires more and more funds for its maintenance, but cannot in any way solve the systemic problem of lack of IPv4 and AS32 resources. For some reason, any attempts to start a discussion about the need to change the approach to the economic model or (and) the regulatory part are faced with inaction, primarily by EB NNC. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but apparently those 7% of the 84% LIR holders historically (I emphasize HISTORICALLY) have a strong influence on the EB NCC and the RIPE agenda. I have already written more than once that in my opinion, the way out of the situation with growing costs and missing resources should be solved by introducing a flat scale of payment for scarce resources. The most optimal scenario in my opinion is the following: 1. The annual payment must consist of 2 parts: - The FIXED part - The VARIABLE part is directly dependent on the number of allocated SCARCE resources (now IPv4 and AS32) The amount of payments in this way should not affect the number of his votes. 2. In the first year, we have to plan payments and budget so that: - The FIXED part was about 1/4-1/2 of the planned budget - The VARIABLE part covered the rest of the planned budget with a surplus of at least 20%. 3. We must increase the payment for the PERMANENT part annually until at least 15% of the resources become available for distribution. At the same time, the community should allocate the funds received in excess of the planned budget for the transition from IPv4 to IPv6 or other new protocols. This can be the preparation of educational programs, the translation of articles into local languages, the completion and popularization of improvements to the IP stack or of training programs, the development of software to simplify migration and other initiatives. --- Dmitry Serbulov ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.

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