March 2023 - members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

[ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme
by Simon-Jan Haytink 27 Apr '23

27 Apr '23

Dear all, First off, I apologise for the length of this email, but I hope to cover a number of points brought up in the consultation so far. I want to thank you again for your input so far on the models. We are busy looking at all the feedback. We have also seen over 100 members sign up for the Open House next week to discuss this further, so I appreciate your interest in helping us to reach a good outcome. Looking at the feedback we've seen so far, there are a number of questions and points raised where I can help to add clarity and also answer some specific questions. 1. Some of you asked for a breakdown of the IPv4 address space held by LIRs to help with your consideration of a category-based model. So here is a chart with that information: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/di… I’d like to note that in the models we are developing, we are looking to move to a model that charges per member rather than per LIR account. So I also have an indicative spread of how many members would be in each category in the model we shared: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… 2. To clarify what determines the category someone is placed within in the model I shared, it is the highest score for just one of the following types of resource: - IPv4 allocations - IPv6 allocations - ASN assignments - Independent resources (includes all resource assignments not in the previous three categories, including all sponsored items) Note: Independent resources are charged by number of assignments rather than by the amount of IPs within the assignment. So if your highest score is for IPv4 allocations, then the amount for IPv6 allocations, ASNs or independent resources does not contribute to the category you are placed in. The highest score of the four defines the category. The elements that we charge for in the categories or separately can of course change or be refined based on your feedback. 3. Another person asked for comparison with other RIR charging schemes, and I provide links to the information on their websites: APNIC: https://www.apnic.net/get-ip/apnic-membership/how-much-does-it-cost/ ARIN: https://www.arin.net/resources/fees/fee_schedule/ AFRINIC: https://afrinic.net/membership/cost#resource LACNIC: https://www.lacnic.net/2399/2/lacnic/membership-fees-and-categories 4. There was a question on how we charge for those who are still on the waiting list and have not yet received any IPv4 address space. We are still looking at how this might work and it is something I can bring up during the Open House. Potentially, there could be a base membership fee and another fee once IPv4 resources are received. 5. There was a request for comment on the idea that the RIPE NCC had permitted multiple LIRs in order to allow some members to receive more address space. In fact, the members themselves voted at the General Meeting to allow this in 2016. There had been a resolution by the Executive Board to stop the creation of multiple LIR accounts in 2015; there was a lengthy discussion about this and the Board therefore asked the members to discuss the issue and make a decision on the matter in 2016. Board Resolution: https://www.ripe.net/publications/news/announcements/board-resolution-to-su… Membership Vote: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2016 Finally, there was a comment that we need to achieve a balance between fairness and complexity. This comment really resonates with me, given that there are possibly as many ways to charge as there are IPv6 addresses. At the Open House next week, I plan to present updated models that take as much of your feedback as possible into account, and of course I'll share that information afterwards with the full membership. Charging Scheme 2024 Open House: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… Kind regards, Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC

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RIPE NCC Quarterly Planning Q2 2023
by Fergal Cunningham 30 Mar '23

30 Mar '23

Dear all, We have published our Q2 2023 plans for our development teams. These are available at: https://www.ripe.net/support/documentation/quarterly-planning Our quarterly planning includes the work we will be carrying out in the next few months in: - RPKI - Learning & Development - RIPE Database - Business Applications, including the LIR Portal, Registry Services and other applications - DNS and K-root - RIPE Atlas - RIPEstat - RIS - Information Technology - Information Security, Risk, and Compliance The goals of publishing our planning are to be transparent about the work we will be carrying out in the coming months, to get your input on those plans, and to foster a dialogue with our members and the community about what you would like to see the RIPE NCC work on going forward. If you have any input on our plans or want to let us know what you would like to see us work on, please let us know. Kind regards, Fergal Cunningham Head of Membership Engagement RIPE NCC

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Opt-out from "How did we do ?" survey after a support request at RIPE NCC
by Clement Cavadore 30 Mar '23

30 Mar '23

Dear RIPE NCC, I would like to see you implement an opt out regarding the survey email after each NCC ticket closure. I think I am not the only one to be tired having to rate basically *ANY* customer service interaction I have to deal with: That kind of survey is, in my humble opinion, a poor way to give metrics to customer support's staff management, and even worse: You tend not to answer when the reply could be "it's fine, thanks", and to answer (and give bad feedback) when it was bad. Could you find any alternate methods (such as maybe an optionnal satisfaction survey prior each GM, for example) rather than this kind of survey ? Thanks ! -- Clément Cavadore

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NRO letter to ICANN re AFRINIC
by Sander Steffann 29 Mar '23

29 Mar '23

Hi all, I was in vocal opposition to the previous letter the NRO sent that regarded AFRINIC, so I think it’s only fair to be vocal about my support for the "Proposal to Re-engage the AFRINIC Community” sent earlier this week. I appreciate the strong bottom-up approach in this letter. Many bad things have happened at AFRINIC and its Board, and the African community deserves better! Empowering them to get a healthy RIR that they can rely on has my full support. Cheers, Sander

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by i7 NOC 28 Mar '23

28 Mar '23

Hello Everyone, As a representative of one of the country's largest sponsoring LIRs and IPv4 transfer brokers, I would like to express my concerns about the proposed charging models, particularly the inclusion of transfer fees. I believe these fees introduce a significant degree of unpredictability to the RIPE NCC's annual budget due to the fluctuations in the number of transfers each year, making it difficult for the organization to maintain financial stability. I also see the following disadvantages of charging transfer fees: 1) It would create an additional administrative burden on the RIPE NCC, resulting in longer transfer ticket processing times. 2) It could cause payment difficulties from sanctioned countries such as Russia, Iran, Syria and parts of Ukraine that currently have issues even with the annual membership fees payments. 3) PI blocks and ASNs transfers might become more challenging, as LIRs may be reluctant to pay for their end users. 4) Charging transfer fees would lead to additional administration, accounting and taxes issues for the sponsoring LIRs, which may negatively impact their operations. Instead, I propose focusing on increasing fees for PI resources and ASNs, which are more stable and manageable sources of revenue. By adjusting LIR fees based on the amount of resources held (as per the Model 2 ranging from 200 to 6400 euros) and increasing the fees for PI resources and AS numbers, we can establish a more solid financial foundation for the RIPE NCC. If we raise the fees for PI IPv4 and IPv6 resources to 100 euros and ASNs to 100 euros, the RIPE NCC can generate consistent revenue while allowing for future fee adjustments based on demand and financial needs. To demonstrate the potential financial benefits of this approach, consider the following calculations: Current RIPE NCC resources (approx. to date, PI IPv6 are excluded): 26,440 PI IPv4 blocks 14,910 ASNs 26,440 x (100 - 50) + 14,910 x 100 = 2,813,000 EUR Now, let's compare this with the potential revenue from transfer fees, assuming a rate of 500 EUR per transfer based on last year's statistics of 5,082 transfers: 5,082 x 500 = 2,541,000 EUR As seen in these calculations, by increasing the fees for PI and ASN, the RIPE NCC could generate similar or even higher revenue compared to the unpredictable transfer fees, while avoiding the associated disadvantages. This approach, which relies on the more predictable nature of PI resources and ASNs, ensures that the RIPE NCC can adapt to changing circumstances without putting undue strain on its operations or financial stability. Additionally, this strategy aligns with the practices of other RIRs and would not create an additional administrative burden on the RIPE NCC. Regards, Victor > Dear RIPE NCC members, > > We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. > > In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. > > The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. > > One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members. > > To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: > > Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. > > You can download the Excel sheet from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… > > We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. > > I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. > > The consultation will also be recorded and available from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations > > I look forward to your input. > > Kind regards, > > Simon Jan Haytink > Finance Director > RIPE NCC > > Summary > > 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model > 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership > 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far > 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 > 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members > 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 > > References > > Open House and Survey Results > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… > > Presentation at General Meeting > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio… >

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Mark Schouten 24 Mar '23

24 Mar '23

Hello everyone, First of all, thanks to everyone working on these proposals. I’ve been silent in the RIPE community so far, but I tried to read most of the messages in this thread. I thought it might come in handy to leave my two cents as well. For the first matter, this actual proposal. I tend to agree with model 2, except for the categories. If you are assigning points to various resources to get to a category, you might as well assign prices to that resource, and invoice those tariffs. I would expect the amount of IP’s to be in balance with the size of a member. Which makes the invoice fair (although we’re completely ignoring the fact of different economical circumstances in the RIPE region). I would like to see a different price for IPv4 (not sure if anyone is actually still using those ;)), and a lower price for IPv6 after the first /32 allocation. Then there is the matter of the actual tariffs. There’s been a lot of feedback on the tariff being too high, and a connection to the budget. I think the hight of the tariff would be less important if members have the sense that the budget is in balance. The issue is, members are in charge of the budget. Members decide on the activity plan each year, as you can see on [1], page 2. I’ve looked at the archives of this mailing list. There has been one discussion on this list on the activity plan since 2013. One. I’ve also looked at https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/october-2022/livestre…, where the budget has been presented, there were no questions. None. If you disagree with the amount of money RIPE is spending (which I completely understand, I have some concerns too), schedule ‘Read the ncc-announce mailinglist’ for every day in September, and respond to that. We might even setup a discussion here beforehand, so the board can take the input into account before setting up the budget. [1]: https://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-786.pdf — Mark Schouten, CTO Tuxis B.V. mark(a)tuxis.nl / +31 318 200208 ------ Original Message ------ >From "Simon Jan Haytink" <simon(a)ripe.net> To ncc-announce(a)ripe.net Date 3/7/2023 10:35:22 AM Subject [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 >Dear RIPE NCC members, > >We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. > >In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. > >The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. > >One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members. > >To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: > >Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > >Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > >In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. > >You can download the Excel sheet from: >https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… > >We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. > >I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. > >The consultation will also be recorded and available from: >https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations > >I look forward to your input. > >Kind regards, > >Simon Jan Haytink >Finance Director >RIPE NCC > >Summary > >7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model >21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership >24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far >12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 >26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members >24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 > >References > >Open House and Survey Results >https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… > >Presentation at General Meeting >https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio… >

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Daniel Pearson 23 Mar '23

23 Mar '23

We have a relatively small deployment with a single LIR, single ASN , two IPv4 allocations and one IPv6 allocation. Model 1 has me paying 28.2% more , €2,050 Model 2 has me paying 89.7% more.... €4,050 For a small provider.. that is a SIGNIFICANT price increase and burden for what is effectively a centralized database and verification service. For what exactly are you telling me I am paying for with those increases? Why has your budget grown to the point that you are worried about LIR accounts merging? Why are you not exploring other options by reducing your budget and being proper stewards of our money. Please do not forget that RIPE, as your own definition is a "We're a not-for-profit membership association, a Regional Internet Registry and the secretariat for the RIPE community supporting the Internet through technical coordination." You are not for profit, and as such I would recommend instead of increasing the LIR pricing, we acknowledge that the world is a much tougher place and review not only the budget expenses of the organization but additional expenses that are not necessary. You're offering up to €250,000 per year funding projects with presumably our registration fee's and funds of which you selected 8 recipients, for a presumed funding of €2,000,000 of our funds..... If that program was cut or reduced, how much would that make up for your budget short fall? Otherwise how about we also investigate other avenues of budget expenditure from RIPE and determine your total projected short fall. Ripe appears to have Approx 190 Employees on payroll as well, but yet RIPE only has 23,397 LIR's and 20,244 members. That is a significantly high ratio of employee to members, - 106 Members per 1 employee - why is this so high, what audits have been conducted recently to ensure RIPE is not suffering from technical creep and employee bloat? Your own budget for 2023 shows you've assigned less IPv4 resources in 2021 and 2022 than in prior years and have completed significantly fewer registry checks. The only real increase seen has been in RPKI's created. You're also projecting more trips this year than previous as well, a 10% increase. I'm sorry but this feels like a huge cash grab to maintain your current life style and I fully reject both Models. If I have more time I'll continue to dig into your financials and we can all have discussions on how as an organization you can be better stewards of our Money. You have to remember, at the end of the day your job is to manage a registry of finite resources. Spending money on events, trade shows, travel and excess employees is not a necessity to conduct your original goals and objectives. The rest of the world, and all of the small companies who utilize your services often times do not have the liberty to simply talk about raising prices, especially in many of the economically impacted areas that RIPE services. RIPE should follow the same course of action as many of their customers do, evaluate internal expenditures and operate within the budget provided by your members, not come to the membership and request we continue to pay for donations to random projects, or a 10% increase in employee travel. Sincerely Daniel C Pearson Private Systems Networks~ On 3/7/23 03:35, Simon Jan Haytink wrote: > Dear RIPE NCC members, > > We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. > > In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. > > The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. > > One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members. > > To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: > > Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. > > You can download the Excel sheet from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… > > We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. > > I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. > > The consultation will also be recorded and available from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations > > I look forward to your input. > > Kind regards, > > Simon Jan Haytink > Finance Director > RIPE NCC > > Summary > > 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model > 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership > 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far > 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 > 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members > 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 > > References > > Open House and Survey Results > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… > > Presentation at General Meeting > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio… >

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Hank Nussbacher 22 Mar '23

22 Mar '23

On 07/03/2023 11:35, Simon Jan Haytink wrote: > In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. > > You can download the Excel sheet from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… 1. The Excel calculator has a different pricing model for model #2 as compared to: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… The numbers between both should match. 2. The Excel calculator mentions "Independent Internet number resource assignments" yet the LIR Portal for every everyone lists resources as either "My Resources" or "Sponsored Resources", or "Allocated PA" or "Legacy", etc. Can the calculator be adjusted so people can know exactly how each resource is priced in the new model? Regards, Hank

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Kaj Niemi 18 Mar '23

18 Mar '23

Hi, Thanks, the email and the excel made for some quite interesting reading. There are a few other reasonable options which were not listed on the slide deck from 2021 nor in your email. An obvious option would be to reduce budgeted RIPE NCC expenditure to the level of forecasted revenue. This is what most normal companies, without assured funding, must do. Another option would be to charge LIRs for the services they use. With this I do not mean IP addresses and ASNs that were mentioned in your model but for everything. Someone who is using only basic LIR services (IP/ASN assignments, reverse name services) would not have to pay for "value-added services" (VAS). With VAS I mean RIPE NCC's varied extracurricular activities such as outreach, education programs and software development that have expanded considerably over the years and have undoubtedly been of some value to some of its members. Still, many of the same roles/functions are also conducted by membership organizations, NOGs, and independent software developers. Imposition of the costs of such programs on members, who either don't benefit from or do not use them, equates the charging model functioning mostly as an ATM to finance the ambitions and initiatives of the RIPE NCC leadership and a small group of active advocates. Some of us would be happy with a Big Mac meal rather than the expensive all you can eat seafood buffet 😉 Kaj -----Original Message----- From: ncc-announce <ncc-announce-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of Simon Jan Haytink Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 11:35 To: ncc-announce(a)ripe.net Subject: [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 Dear RIPE NCC members, We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members. To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. You can download the Excel sheet from: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.… We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.… I look forward to your input. Kind regards, Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC Summary 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 References Open House and Survey Results https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.… Presentation at General Meeting https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.…

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RIPE NCC Budget Discussions
by Hans Petter Holen 17 Mar '23

17 Mar '23

Dear all, We have seen many comments on the RIPE NCC's budget, expenses and staffing. We take all those comments on board and they will be valuable when we start work on our Activity Plan and Budget 2024 later this year. However, for this consultation, we are working to come up with a charging scheme model that will work for the foreseeable future regardless of whether the budget is higher, lower or the same as the current one. I understand that there is a connection to our charging model, but the two consultation processes aim at different things. This one is about how we charge in a way that is acceptable to the membership. The later one is about what activities we carry out, as well as how much we pay for them and how we resource them. I note that currently over 50% of our costs (budget and actuals) are staff-related costs. Having said that, we have seen some comments that might create misconceptions about our staff levels and our overall budget. For instance, our Community Projects Fund allocates 250,000 euro across all Good of the Internet projects rather than 250,000 euro for each project. Also, there have been comments that fewer LIRs should have meant less work for the RIPE NCC. However, this has not proven to be the case for many reasons. We still need to ensure there is an accurate registry, and there has been a dramatic increase in the amount of transfers since IPv4 run-out that need proper due diligence from our side. Similarly, the effects of sanctions compliance on the RIPE NCC has been significant for our work on the registry side but also on the legal, financial and political fronts. We also need to put resources into ensuring a resilient and secure RPKI Trust Anchor. We have seen the need to greatly increase our security and compliance efforts to protect our infrastructure and your resources. Members across our service region have very different needs in terms of capacity building and training. We provide measurements on the Internet that we are uniquely placed to provide and we see much demand for those insights. And of course the effect of instability in the service region (war and dealing with ultra high-risk countries, for example) has caused uncertainty around being able to collect part of the membership fees and that has in turn increased our workload. There are many other examples of how our workload has increased in recent years, and I encourage you to look at our Activity Plans over the past few years to see more details on this. Best regards, Hans Petter Holen Managing Director RIPE NCC

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Re: [members-discuss] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by J Pawlus 17 Mar '23

17 Mar '23

Hello, There is no basis for any LIR membership fee to be based on the IPv4 allocated address space and there are several reasons for this: - RIPE has never charged LIRs for IP addresses - It is true that at the beginning RIPE membership fee was based on categories, as far as I remember: SMALL, MEDIUM, LARGE and EXTRA LARGE, but it was because of work required to serve IPv4 resources. At that time IPv4 allocation and assignement policies had to be developed, every allocation of IPv4 address space to a LIR had to be checked and done by RIPE. What is more, if the IPv4 assignement made by a LIR to its End User exceeded the LIR Window size such assignement had to be checked and approved by the RIPE staff. RevDNS for allocated resources had to be made. This work is long gone. - The amount of work required to serve leftover IPv4 space cannot be compared to what it was required before - As far as I know RIPE does not pay IANA for IPv4 space allocated to Europe Region and any attempt of RIPE to require such payment from LIRs should be considered major abuse of RIPE mandate as a RIR. In conclusion, RIPE has always charged its members for Services not an address space. If a reverse model is to be developed it has to be with IANA cooperation. But in my opinion it could lead to splitting Internet to many privately administered parts. Kind regards, Jerzy Pawlus ACK Cyfronet AGH

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Sander Steffann 16 Mar '23

16 Mar '23

Hi Simon Jan, > Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. I feel this model double-charges for PI and ASN. LIRs with many of those resources both pay €50 per resource, and also run the risk of being pushed up into a higher category. I strongly feel that PI and ASN should be excluded from the category score calculation. On a side note, I also feel that the RIPE NCC’s budget is getting a bit out of control. RIPE NCC is primarily an Internet Registry, and I would like to see focus concentrating on Registration Services, and less on anything else. I understand that the RIPE NCC is in a useful position to do nice research projects, represent the internet community etc. But looking at the budget it looks like the rest of the organisation is growing much faster than the registry function. I therefore also object to the €450 price increase in model 1. Cheers, Sander

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Matej 14 Mar '23

14 Mar '23

Hello all, I 100% agree with Elvis! Best regards, Matej Serc Sent via BlackBerry Hub+ Inbox for Android <http://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.blackberry.hub> From: elvis(a)v4escrow.net Sent: 14. marec 2023 19:30 To: sander(a)steffann.nl Cc: simon(a)ripe.net; members-discuss(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 Hi, the RIPE NCC budget has increased yearly for the past 10+ years. A non-for-profit registry that could operate with less than €20mil ten years ago needs more than twice the amount of money ten years later. Something has gone wrong if the organization spends twice as much money to offer similar services (sometimes of a poorer quality) to its members. Most of the members NEED to pay a membership fee to the RIPE NCC because they can not get the registration services anywhere else. The non-for-proffit organization called the RIPE NCC is a monopoly that now spends €40m a year. So, today members are forced by the NCC to choose from a bad charging scheme and an even worse one. They will pay more yearly regardless of whether they need more or less services from the NCC. I really believe a better accountability on what the NCC is planning to spend €40mil/year is needed before we vote on new charging schemes or price increases. FYI, I looked at the budget the NCC had over the past 10+ years, collected the number of FTEs and the CAPEX: 2012, ripe-544: 129 FTEs, 19,16 mEUR 2013, ripe-558: 135 FTEs, 18,5 mEUR 2014, ripe-598: 136 FTEs, 20,8 mEUR 2015, ripe-630: 136.1 FTEs, 20,66 mEUR 2016, ripe-662: 141 FTEs, 22,32 mEUR 2017, ripe-671: 148.5 FTEs, 25,11 mEUR 2018, ripe-693: 155.2 FTEs, 26,89 mEUR 2019, ripe-711: 165.1 FTEs, 31,60 mEUR 2020, ripe-735: 165.1 FTEs, 34,44 mEUR 2021, ripe-750: 170 FTEs, 33,56 mEUR 2022, ripe-773: 186 FTEs, 35,60 mEUR 2023, ripe-786: 190.6 FTEs, 40,00 mEUR Something happened in 2016-2017 that caused the NCC to increase the amount of money they need, dramatically. And since then, as no one seemed to make enough noise, the NCC and the Board kept increasing the budget until we got to this amount… €40mil. So, the budget doubled in 2023 when compared to 2015, I wonder why... At every RIPE Meeting there’s at least one person asking the NCC to find a way to spend less, and then the NCC and the Board ignore all that ‘noise’. Why a registry of IP addresses and AS Numbers needs to spend 40 million EUR per year is beyond my comprehension. Why the NCC needs 200 FTEs in 2023 when they were doing just fine (or even better) doing a similar job in 2013 with just 135 is also unknown. I’d suggest to the MD, the CFO and the Board to go back to the drawing board and figure out why the budget keeps going up. The services offered (those that 99% of the membership care for) are less and less (no one can get IPv4 anymore, they ask for an IPv6 allocation and an ASN and never come back to bother the NCC again… the price paid for membership should go down and not up. I understand and agree that staff’s salaries should be increased because of the galloping inflation. What I do not understand is why the budget increased from €20m to €40m in less than 10 years… there must have been other reasons too. I reject both charging scheme proposals. my 2 cents, Elvis On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 02:02 Sander Steffann <sander(a)steffann.nl <mailto:sander@steffann.nl> > wrote: Hi, > On a side note, I also feel that the RIPE NCC’s budget is getting a bit out of control. RIPE NCC is primarily an Internet Registry, and I would like to see focus concentrating on Registration Services, and less on anything else. I understand that the RIPE NCC is in a useful position to do nice research projects, represent the internet community etc. But looking at the budget it looks like the rest of the organisation is growing much faster than the registry function. I therefore also object to the €450 price increase in model 1. I had a chat with Hans Petter the other day, and he informed me that a significant part of the budget increase is caused by increasing staff salaries. Considering the recent inflation and economic circumstances I fully approve that. So if the fee increase is used to improve working conditions for RIPE NCC Staff, which are an important part of our community, I am perfectly fine with that! Cheers, Sander _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss(a)ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/elvis%40v4escrow.net -- This message was sent from a mobile device. Some typos may be possible.

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RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 Consultation
by paul.newton＠f4rn.org.uk 14 Mar '23

14 Mar '23

Dear RIPE, Thank you for the opportunity to input to the consultation. We would be strongly in favour of model 2 for the following reasons: We are a small, non-profit-making provider of fibre broadband to a rural community. We fill an essential gap, as communities like ours tend to get left behind in the rollout of FTTH by the major suppliers. We have only a small core team, so are not able to take advantage of the ancillary benefits that RIPE offers, such as training schemes and conferences. The cost of model 1 would represent about 3% of our turnover, which is a significant element in our cost scheme, and a barrier to attracting new subscribers. I hope you will give this due consideration: model 2. Kind regards, Dr Paul Newton F4RN

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Maria Merkel 14 Mar '23

14 Mar '23

Hi all, While I am responding to the parent message, I will also address some points raised in other replies. Our LIR primarily provides services to other group companies, but we also provide LIR services to some business and personal customers. My biggest concern is that if ASN assignments not only have their own fixed fee but also determine the membership fee tier, the cost of providing an ASN will become difficult to predict. This may be fine for internal and business customers as these can be charged a higher fee to compensate for this (perhaps by just assuming the worst case), but this may be more difficult for personal customers and we might be forced to discontinue this service for them entirely. If there is already a recurring per-ASN charge I do not see why the number of ASNs should also influence the membership fee tier. It is also unclear to me whether "Independent Internet number resource assignments" includes ASNs? I assume not as PI and ASN Category Scores are listed separately in Model 2, but it would be helpful if this could be clarified. I also do not understand why there is a separate sign-up fee and a "New membership Fee". Why are these not combined into a single sign-up fee? There is also some concern regarding the transfer fee. When something like a /22 is sold, a 1,000 € transfer fee obviously doesn't have too much of an impact, but this would be very different with a /24. It's unclear to me whether the transfer fee also applies to transfers of ASNs but if it does that also seems problematic for cases where ASNs are transferred free of charge between affiliated companies (and might actually encourage more ASNs being requested than are required). While I understand some of the concerns from others regarding the RIPE NCC's activities not being solely related to registry functions, I believe that this is justified and ultimately benefits its members. Maybe there should be a separate (cheaper) option to become an LIR without becoming a full member? — Maria Merkel [https://cdn.staclar.com/logos/novecore/newlogo.png] This email was sent from Staclar, Inc. Any statements contained in this email are personal to the author and are not necessarily the statements of the company unless specifically stated. Novecore and Staclar are collective trading names of Novecore Ltd., registered in England and Wales under company number 11748197, Novecore Licensing Ltd., registered in England and Wales under company number 11544982, Staclar Carrier Ltd., registered in England and Wales under company number 12219686, Staclar Financial Services Ltd., registered in England and Wales under company number 13843292 (registered offices 54 Portland Place, London, UK, W1B 1DY); Novecore Professional Services Ltd., registered in England and Wales under company number 13965912 (registered office 13 Freeland Park, Wareham Road, Poole, UK, BH16 6FA); Novecore (Estonia) OÜ, registered in Estonia under registry code 16543205 (local contact Baltic Business Services OÜ, Narva mnt 5, 10117 Tallinn, Estonia); Novecore (USA) Inc., registered in Delaware under file number 6707907, Novecore Licensing (USA) LLC, registered in Delaware under file number 4030866, and Staclar, Inc., registered in Delaware under file number 7413401 (registered agents The Corporation Trust Company, Corporation Trust Center, 1209 Orange St, Wilmington DE 19801, USA). Novecore Licensing Ltd. is registered for VAT in the United Kingdom under VAT registration number 347 4545 80. Novecore (Estonia) OÜ is registered for VAT in the European Union under VAT registration number EE102518979. Staclar Financial Services Ltd. is an Annex 1 financial institution registered with and supervised by the Financial Conduct Authority under the Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017 (firm reference number 989521). Registration is not equivalent to authorisation and is not an endorsement to do business with a firm. Staclar Financial Services Ltd. is not an authorised person within the meaning of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 and does not review, approve, or endorse financial promotions for securities issues it is involved in or provide any form of investment advice. [Sent from Front] On March 7, 2023 at 10:43 AM GMT+1 simon(a)ripe.net<mailto:simon@ripe.net> wrote: Dear RIPE NCC members, We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members. To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. You can download the Excel sheet from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net>) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations I look forward to your input. Kind regards, Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC Summary 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 References Open House and Survey Results https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… Presentation at General Meeting https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio…<https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio…>

2 1

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Fabien SCHENKELS 13 Mar '23

13 Mar '23

Dear Members, We are exactly of the same opinion as "ServeByte" which says: « ServeByte Limited is in favor of the new proposed pricing model 2, to abolish the current membership fee model. We find that it is a much fairer pricing model for small service providers. All of our costs have increased over the past few years, but clawing higher fees from small LIR members is unsustainable. It discourages direct RIPE membership and instead encourages people to merge their resources, under a single LIR for little to no extra cost. We have even considered this. » We also want Model 2. It is about the survival of thousands of LIRs and the neutrality and independence of the Internet. Small members must be supported. Thank you for making the right choices and that the little LIRs can continue to live. Kind regards, Fabien Schenkels > Le 7 mars 2023 à 10:35, Simon Jan Haytink <simon(a)ripe.net> a écrit : > > Dear RIPE NCC members, > > We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. > > In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. > > The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. > > One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members. > > To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: > > Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. > > You can download the Excel sheet from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… > > We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. > > I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. > > The consultation will also be recorded and available from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations > > I look forward to your input. > > Kind regards, > > Simon Jan Haytink > Finance Director > RIPE NCC > > Summary > > 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model > 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership > 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far > 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 > 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members > 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 > > References > > Open House and Survey Results > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… > > Presentation at General Meeting > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio… >

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[ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme
by Simon-Jan Haytink 13 Mar '23

13 Mar '23

Dear all, Thank you for the discussion so far - we've seen a lot of great input and it really helps us to figure out what the members want to see (or not see) in their charging model. We hope to see more in the coming weeks. I'd like to clarify a couple of things that might address some concerns. First, the figures included in the calculator are by no means final. We include figures for a range of items because we want you to consider them, and we make the figures high enough to be worth consideration. The numbers attached to each item would likely result in more income than required, and it is unlikely we would charge on all criteria. Second, there has been no discussion on the Budget with the Executive Board yet. As was pointed out, the Budget discussions will happen in the run-up to the November General Meeting, and the draft Activity Plan and Budget will be shared with you well in advance. And we would welcome a similar level of discussion on that document. For the purposes of the charging scheme model discussion and the income we would need to derive, we are aiming for something roughly similar to the current budget. However, this may be different once we start the planning process for 2024 with your involvement. I also note that the mechanism to redistribute excess fees paid by members remains in place. In summary, what we are mainly looking for is input on the models so we can bring a good proposal to the Executive Board based on the input from the members. Your feedback is already helping us to develop that proposal. Understanding which model members want and which items we should or should not charge for is our main concern at the moment. Then we can then come up with a more developed proposal for members to consider. We will also have an Open House on this topic on 21 March at 14:00 CET (UTC+1). At that session, I'll be happy to dive into further details on the models and hope to get further input from the members. We will announce this shortly on our Announce list but you can already register at: https://www.ripe.net/s/charging-scheme-2024-open-house We are also collating the feedback and preparing answers that will address some of the comments we've seen. Also, a member pointed out an error in the calculator - cell L50 was calculating total PI rather than ASN assignments as expected. This has been fixed and the updated calculator is now available to download from the consultation page: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/ch… Best regards, Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC

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New pricing proposal - it goes out of control
by Servperso 10 Mar '23

10 Mar '23

Hello Everyone, I'm analyzing the new charging scheme proposed by RIPE NCC. Adopt the new scheme like that KILL every small hosting provider include us. I don't think that's a good idea for RIPE NCC to kill a lot of small provider. It kill net neutrality, and i think a lot of small isp call IANA to sanction the RIPE board for that. In practice, you ask 8000€ / year because a provider has one ASN ? It's mostly mandatory for all members to own at least one. Why not doing some in between prupose: More "reasonable" base membership. Small ISP doesn't have to pay mush. Let imagine a resource quantity category. IPv6 only => category 1 < 10 000 IPv4 => category 2 50 000 IPv4 => .... ... - Extra fee for every PI of 50€ Like that, big isp who can pay for the RIPE work because they extract high value from them. Also people who sponsor a lot of PI (who generate a lot of work for RIPE resource analyst) pay for the employment time. As a reminder, ARIN use this model. Best regards, Sarah

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Sebastien Brossier 10 Mar '23

10 Mar '23

Hi all, Model 1 is no longer sustainable for very small orgs. Model 2 is better, as contribution would adjust to resource usage. Having cheaper categories encourages diversity, and more members guarantees a more stable income. Of course category 4 & 5 members will pay more than model 1, but this is just 0.50 EUR / IPv4 / year in the worst case. If you can't afford this, there is a serious problem with your business model. One big problem, though: Including independent resources in the category system will lead to LIRs stopping sponsorship of these resources. It also makes no sense, as these resources already have a separate charge. Category 0 membership should have a cost (like 100 EUR), because there is still an administrative cost. I see a 0 EUR membership as a vulnerability that could allow to take over the RIPE NCC. The transfer fee is too high for small IP amounts. Regardless of which charging scheme gets chosen, I also think it is time for RIPE NCC to wake up and severely reduce its expenses. The budget should adapt to what the members can contribute, not the other way around. Divide membership costs by 2 and both models will be seen more favourably. With kind regards, Sebastien Brossier

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by George Porter 10 Mar '23

10 Mar '23

Good morning, From our perspective as a fairly small LIR, who got in the IP address space in around 2002, and hold a /21 and two /22's which were cheap then, and do actually utilize most of our held address space, we feel we are some of the people that will be most affected by this. On our usage of the calculator, both model 1 and model 2 in our case will cost us the same amount next year. This is 2000 euros, which is an almost 60% increase from last year. Therefore whether model 1 or 2 goes ahead in this current iteration is meaningless to us. We do however believe that neither of these models are correct, and the figures for resources are far over inflated to what they should be. There are a couple of questions that we have: 1. In the initial post from Simon Jan Haytink, it was mentioned by RIPE that they expect that over the next year, organizations with lots of LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 will start to conglomerate those into less amounts of larger LIRs. This would decrease their income according to them. Please can someone from RIPE provide some justification into why they think this will happen, and what data supports that theory? From the RIPE NCC IPv4 pool, it looks to us that in 2021, RIPE built up a collection of IP addresses that had been handed back, and then towards the end of the year they handed those IP addresses out to members on the waiting list. It is our theory that RIPE allowed members to create many LIRs to request resources, so that those members had a greater chance of receiving large amounts of resources. If the above scenario is correct, this is massive failing on RIPE's part, and they were the direct cause of the issue they are now trying to charge us for. Can someone from RIPE please comment? 2. Clearly RIPE must have a budget for expenditure and income for the forthcoming year, can RIPE indicate whether they have a planned increase in both income and expenditure and what reasons are given for any increase especially in expenditure. RIPE need to be far more transparent and also understand that they are spending our money, their stewardship needs to be improved. As someone else has said, why does RIPE have a multi-million Euro PR budget. They are the only people in this space in Europe, what does this budget go towards? 3. Why does Model 2 seem to have an upper cap of 8 000 Euros? This means that large companies with millions of IPv4 addresses aren’t paying a proportional share of the costs. RIPE’s pricing should be fair to ALL members, and charging a disproportionally low amount to multi-national corporations seems like RIPE are just shifting the cost on to smaller LIRs. We believe that the way that RIPE should charge FOR IT'S CORE SERVICES is through set fees for resources, as is similar to model 2, but that the prices on model 2 are far too high. RIPE must also decrease it's expenditure. They offer so many training and community based sessions that are often at in person locations, and the vast majority of the time, those events are free to members. Many small companies would love to be able to send colleagues out to these events, but due to travel/accommodation costs, they simply cannot. It doesn't make sense then that the small companies should have to bear the burden through increased membership prices of financing these events. We would be more accepting if these events were supplemented by RIPE if it truly is for the good of the internet community, but we think that there should be a price to pay from members for these events. If RIPE want to increase our membership costs, and don't provide justification as to why, and don't put forward actionable plans to decrease their expenditure, we will be voting NO to both of the proposed models. George Porter Integrated Network Services Ltd 01928 238390 07956592260 george.porter(a)in-services.co.uk Note. This email is confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender -----Original Message----- From: ncc-announce <ncc-announce-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of Simon Jan Haytink Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 9:35 AM To: ncc-announce(a)ripe.net Subject: [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 [You don't often get email from simon(a)ripe.net. Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ] Dear RIPE NCC members, We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members. To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. You can download the Excel sheet from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations I look forward to your input. Kind regards, Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC Summary 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 References Open House and Survey Results https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… Presentation at General Meeting https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio…

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Josh Jameson 10 Mar '23

10 Mar '23

Dear all, There's a lot of misinformation being spread around on members-discuss regarding the new pricing model 2 scheme. I think RIPE management did a poor job of implementing a quotation system on a spread sheet. People are failing to calculate their pricing correctly. Would it really have been out of the question to have a temporary calculator on the RIPE site that would show the proposed costs for a member? I'm sorry to say that we need something that allows us all to be on the same page regarding fees to make a well informed decision. Regards, Josh Jameson Technical Director ServeByte Ltd

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Martin Volf 10 Mar '23

10 Mar '23

Hello, in my opinion the IPv4 Category Calculation in the provided XLSX file is too strict. Maybe doubling the Max Assignments values would be more appropriate, i.e.: Extra Small 1024 Small 4096 Medium 16384 Large 65536 Extra Large > instead of: Extra Small 512 Small 2048 Medium 8192 Large 32768 Extra Large > Best regards, Martin Volf Dragon Internet a.s. AS15614 On Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Simon Jan Haytink wrote: > Dear RIPE NCC members, > > We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in > 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out > that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May > 2023. > > In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our > members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme > model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The > outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases > made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based > model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A > strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned > by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. > > The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war > in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter > together with the membership. > > One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the > charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who > received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This > means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant > amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to > collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a > category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. > Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for > all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging > scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the > needs of the RIPE NCC’s members. > > To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to > assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These > models can be summarised as: > > Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging > Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and > changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR > account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for > independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure > such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, > we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees > you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware > that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and > would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review > these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on > those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. > > You can download the Excel sheet from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… > > We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in > March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board > will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the > membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of > that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming > years. > > I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the > Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net) by 26 April. > Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when > formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this > date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the > schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. > > The consultation will also be recorded and available from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations > > I look forward to your input. > > Kind regards, > > Simon Jan Haytink > Finance Director > RIPE NCC > > Summary > > 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme > model > 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership > 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far > 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 > 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by > members > 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 > > References > > Open House and Survey Results > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… > > Presentation at General Meeting > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio…

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Hans Govenius 09 Mar '23

09 Mar '23

Hello Is there a statistic of how many LIR:s would go to which bracket? Is there any statistic of usage of IP:s for a bit larger organizations? I think its a good way forward to somehow take allocated resources as base for fees. This is because i would hope that some organizations which would not use IP:s efficiently might reconsider their allocations. That is why i would even consider higher prices for larger allocations. Im not sure how it could be done so that if you have let say a company that has legacy IP:s of 100 000 + and it does not use them for ISP services but are just for own network needs, would start to reconsider their need for allocation. It might also be that this is more of a problem in ARIN region as they probably have more large allocations to private companies. But let say a industry company that in reality uses 5% of their IP:s and a bean counter would receive a invoice of 100 000 euros, he might start to question things 😊 But if there is many companies that have so called oversized allocations (non-ISP ie. industry companies) i would definately vote for more punising pricing for every IP allocated. But it might also be that im picturing a problem that in reality does not exists. I think if one is using IP:s for its customers (being ISP or similar service provider) its very hard to see that the price of IP:s would be too high on any scenario. There is probably some problem with pricing in that case 😊 I can see that ASN resources might be a different story. I also agree with comments that RIPE also needs to think about its budget in these hard times. So at the same time i would like them to check the expenses and increase fees to get organizations return part of allocations (i know this is a conflicting thing...) Maybe RIPE could even start a IP repurchase program 😊 ? Excess of membership fees would be used to pay some modest compensation for returning IP:s and then redistribute them to new LIR:s. This is also why i think that non-profit organizations should not get different pricing bracket as im my hopes price at some beautiful day would actually make every organization think how many IP:s they have. Also even if IP:s would costs 0,5 euros/IP/year it would still be quite modest amount for even largest allocations. Lets say German Telecom who seems to have around 30 million of them, it would only be 15 million a year. Thats nothing for them. But it would be problematic for RIPE to use all that money 😊 But if the amount would be let say 0,1 euros/IP/year no one with 100 000 IP allocation would care about the invoice... so no allocations would be returned... I am well aware that it might simply be impossible to get unused allocations back with money incentive but i would probably still vote for suggestions that even try to achieve it... So my vote goes for option 2 or if option to is revised to increase the price even more for larger allocations i will still vote for that. Br. Hans Govenius DevNet Oy -----Alkuperäinen viesti----- Lähettäjä: ncc-announce <ncc-announce-bounces(a)ripe.net> Puolesta Simon Jan Haytink Lähetetty: tiistai 7. maaliskuuta 2023 11.35 Vastaanottaja: ncc-announce(a)ripe.net Aihe: [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024 Dear RIPE NCC members, We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members. To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. You can download the Excel sheet from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. The consultation will also be recorded and available from: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations I look forward to your input. Kind regards, Simon Jan Haytink Finance Director RIPE NCC Summary 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 References Open House and Survey Results https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… Presentation at General Meeting https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio…

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Sebastian Graf 09 Mar '23

09 Mar '23

Hello! *) In general: It appears to me, that a large portion of membership fees goes towards expenses that are not part of the core task(s)/mission. ...So instead of a "we want/need more" - there should be an evaluation/review of what spendings the ripencc can reduce - and how to optimise for the "core mission". *) Membership fee model: If our aim is create a fair membership model, then we should take a couple of factores into consideration such as services used. Lets consider a basic LIR that just mostly uses the DB (plus LIR Portal) to manage its resources. ...Why is there a need for them to also finance "events" ouside of the yearly conference? - Any "Training Programs" or "Community Building Events",... - Should be billed to those attending. A small LIR with will send a lot fewer Humans to Trainings/Events compared to a bigger (in terms of Humans, not resources) LIR. Similarly, a LIR holding or sponsoring more resources should contribute more twoards the total budget when it comes to operating expenses. In a fair model, this would be a linear cost for resources alloacted to the LIR directly (ie: per /24 for ipv4 or per /29 for ipv6). Then there are the "Staff Intensive" Things - Such as: Resource Sponsoring/Transfer Tickets. Those have an initial "workload" for the staff evalutating the request. However i do not really see any big "followup" cost. So may i propose a "verification/evlauation fee" (ie 50 or 80 or 100) fee for those. With a "lowered" yearly fee for resource sponsorings in order to compensate for the extra work that they make during a LIR audit (ie 15 or 25 per resource per year). *) Numbers we are missing: Can the NCC Staff plese provide the numbers for how how many LIR's are a total aggreated allocation of (ipv4): - only a /24 - a /23 - a /22 - ....... - a /16 This should help us get a clearer picture what the billing/fees could look like. Kind Regards Sebastian Graf On 3/7/23 10:35, Simon Jan Haytink wrote: > Dear RIPE NCC members, > > We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. > > In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. > > The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. > > One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members. > > To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: > > Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. > > You can download the Excel sheet from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… > > We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. > > I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. > > The consultation will also be recorded and available from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations > > I look forward to your input. > > Kind regards, > > Simon Jan Haytink > Finance Director > RIPE NCC > > Summary > > 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model > 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership > 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far > 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 > 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members > 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 > > References > > Open House and Survey Results > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… > > Presentation at General Meeting > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio… >

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Hank Nussbacher 09 Mar '23

09 Mar '23

On 07/03/2023 11:35, Simon Jan Haytink wrote: > To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: > > Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. > > You can download the Excel sheet from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… Have to admit, very cleverly done. Present model 1 which is the current model and then present model 2 which everyone will hate due to its increased membership costs. So when discussion arises it will be model 1 vs model 2 and everyone will select model 1 which is what RIPE wants to begin with. :-) I'd like to suggest model 3. Same as model 1 but membership fee is 1800€ and all the rest is the same. Regards, Hank

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Cynthia Revström 09 Mar '23

09 Mar '23

Hi Simon, In the current form there is no way that I can support Model 2 but I also have significant problems with Model 1 and don't want to support it either. I like the idea but the categories have to be a lot more sensible or alternatively don't use categories at all and purely do it based on the amount of IP space. I have listed my main issues with Model 1 and Model 2 below. Model 1: 1) Having a transfer fee of €1k is ludicrous in my opinion. I think this fee should be removed along with the M&A fee, but I can accept it if they are both €50. 2) Having a sign up fee and a separate new membership fee doesn't make any sense to me, there should just be one setup fee. Model 2: 1) The largest category is too small. It doesn't make sense that an org with a /16 would get charged the same amount as one of the giant ISPs with over a /8 worth of IPv4 space. 2) With regards to the category prices, it doesn't make sense that the largest ISPs would just pay as much as 8 members who received a /22 or 16 members who received a /24. 3) With regards to PI/ASN, they should be left outside of any category calculations and just have the €50 fixed fee. 4) Same as issue 1 with model 1, the transfer fee is ludicrous. While not one of my main objections, I would also prefer to only see the charge for ASNs applied to 16-bit ASNs to discourage use of 16-bit ASNs when there is no real need for them. I feel like this would be helpful because I have seen quite a few questionable new 16-bit ASN assignments while realistically we are not running out of 32-bit ASNs anytime soon. -Cynthia On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 10:43 AM Simon Jan Haytink <simon(a)ripe.net> wrote: > Dear RIPE NCC members, > > We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in > 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out > that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May > 2023. > > In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our > members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme > model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The > outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases > made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based > model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. > A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or > assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for > transfers. > > The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the > war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter > together with the membership. > > One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on > the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR > accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the > coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be > reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our > charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our > operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to > cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would > mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our > ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be > sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s > members. > > To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to > assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. > These models can be summarised as: > > Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging > Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers > and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR > account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for > independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure > such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, > we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees > you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware > that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and > would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to > review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving > input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. > > You can download the Excel sheet from: > > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… > > We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in > March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board > will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the > membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of > that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming > years. > > I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the > Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net) by 26 > April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when > formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after > this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in > the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. > > The consultation will also be recorded and available from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations > > I look forward to your input. > > Kind regards, > > Simon Jan Haytink > Finance Director > RIPE NCC > > Summary > > 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme > model > 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership > 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far > 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 > 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by > members > 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 > > References > > Open House and Survey Results > > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… > > Presentation at General Meeting > > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio… > >

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Michele Neylon - Blacknight 09 Mar '23

09 Mar '23

All First off I’d like to thank the RIPE NCC staff for preparing the spreadsheet to clearly show the impact of the proposed pricing. It’s very helpful to be able to plug in our resources etc., and see how they impact our costs. Model 1 is definitely more attractive for most members I’d suspect. I would wonder about some of the charges like “transfers” – seeing those broken out more clearly would be helpful. For my own company Model 1 is definitely the model we’d want – model 2 would cost us significantly more. Model 2 sounds good in theory, but the reality is that it heavily penalises members with larger IP assignments. Just because a company has a lot of IP addresses does not mean that they are “richer”. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 I have sent this email at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to respond to it outside of your usual working hours.

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[GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Paul Lewis 09 Mar '23

09 Mar '23

Hi, Regarding the two proposed charging models for 2024, I honestly think that the pricing is a bit on the steep side. Model 1 certainly seems to have a sharp increase. The 50 EUR 'per ASN' charge I imagine might be a problem for LIR members with many ASNs. I feel that it would be better to have this charge apply to 16-bit ASNs which are in limited supply. This could be seen as a surcharge or penalty for holding onto legacy hardware and/or supporting providers that do so. As for 32-bit ASNs, they could still be charged something but I think they should be charged quite a bit less. There's no description in the spreadsheet about the categories in model 2 (e.g. the thresholds), short of taking a look at the formulas used. It would be nice if there's further clarity around this. As it stands, for me personally model 2 is considerably cheaper than model 1. However, if model 2 was chosen then it may need some further changes for larger LIR members based on more feedback. -- Regards, Paul Lewis.

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Marcus Stoegbauer 08 Mar '23

08 Mar '23

Hi, On 7 Mar 2023, at 10:35, Simon Jan Haytink wrote: > Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. It is not immediately clear to me if the count for independent resources and ASNs also include resources from other parties which are sponsored by the member (i.e.: are those only resources directly assigned to the member?) Could you clarify how this is meant in your current planning please? Thanks, Marcus

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Patrick Velder 08 Mar '23

08 Mar '23

Hi, just my 2 cents: 1. @RIPE NCC, you want to be a company, but *you are not a company*. You are a non profit organisation which should behave in the interest of its members. 2. Before increasing prices again (since the last invoice was already doubled), you should check out other options to reduce your expenses, like any other organisation has to do on the free market. Do you really need an office direct at the Amsterdam Centraal station? Or would another (not so fancy) location be cheaper? Do you really need to sponsor tons of projects? Or should you focuss more on your core things? With this massive price increasements, you bring many small members into financial trouble. 3. Model 1 is unfair in my opinion 4. Model 2 is my preference, but it is unfair too. As some other people mentioned, the price is good for 1x v4, 1x v6, 1x ASN, or n*/8 and a ton of ASNs. While categories are increasing VERY fast with only a small amount of resources, large companies have a cost cap and "a few more networks" have no impact on the price. 5. Also I strongly disagree with counting PI and ASN assignments towards the category. This leads to very big or very small LIRs being able to offer better prices to their customers than medium LIRs. Also these resources are already paid with the 50€/y fee. Please also keep in mind that LIRs save you a lot of effort with all the document checking, communication with customers etc etc. Also, a lot of LIRs would just terminate all End User Agreements to reach a lower category. I'm not sure if this is what you want. Best regards Patrick

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCCCharging Scheme 2024
by Jørgen Hovland ☁️ 08 Mar '23

08 Mar '23

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[ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Asta S. 08 Mar '23

08 Mar '23

Hello, I think it is beneficial for RIPE to change the model because 2022 showed that in the long term, the current model doesn't have a future. Reserves will be exhausted or the fees per LIR account will have to be increased significantly.Also, it would be interesting to hear how this new charging scheme model would affect the current IPv4 waiting list. Now the members have to pay sign-up fees and yearly fees without receiving resources. How these members (that are still waiting in a list) will be charged after implementing this new model? And how new members applying for resources would be charged? | |

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Josh Jameson 07 Mar '23

07 Mar '23

Dear Members, ServeByte Limited is in favor of the new proposed pricing model 2, to abolish the current membership fee model. We find that it is a much fairer pricing model for small service providers. All of our costs have increased over the past few years, but clawing higher fees from small LIR members is unsustainable. It discourages direct RIPE membership and instead encourages people to merge their resources, under a single LIR for little to no extra cost. We have even considered this. Thank you for your time. Yours Faithfully, Josh Jameson Technical Director ServeByte Limited

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Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
by Daniel Suchy 07 Mar '23

07 Mar '23

Hello, can you provide analysis for "Model 2" describing number of LIRs in each category drafted in calculation? Can you demonstrate RIPE NCC income from membership fees based on that model you're presenting currently? I expect NCC has such numbers and shoult present them to members. - Daniel On 3/7/23 10:35, Simon Jan Haytink wrote: > Dear RIPE NCC members, > > We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. > > In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. > > The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. > > One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members. > > To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as: > > Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023 that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions. > > In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. > > You can download the Excel sheet from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/me… > > We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years. > > I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss(a)ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM. > > The consultation will also be recorded and available from: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations > > I look forward to your input. > > Kind regards, > > Simon Jan Haytink > Finance Director > RIPE NCC > > Summary > > 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model > 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership > 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far > 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024 > 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members > 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023 > > References > > Open House and Survey Results > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ch… > > Presentation at General Meeting > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentatio… >

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