June 2020 - members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

Feedback on Mailing List/Board Election Issues - Follow-Up
by Christian Kaufmann 03 Jul '20

03 Jul '20

Dear members, In my previous email, I pointed to three areas of concern that came up ahead of our last General Meeting. Here is the promised follow-up on the third of these, which regards the ability to stand as a candidate in the RIPE NCC Executive Board elections. After discussing the topic, the board has agreed that the best course of action is to assemble a task force of members whose goal will be to evaluate the nomination and election process. The outcome of this evaluation will be a set of recommendations for the board to consider at its September meeting, followed by a proposal to be presented to the RIPE NCC membership at the October General Meeting. In this way, any necessary actions that need to be put to members for voting can happen before the next election takes place. This is not to say that the work of the task force will come to an end in September, as it may be that some of the relevant issues will still require further attention at that point. Specific topics we expect to be addressed include the introduction of measures for the qualification and verification of candidates, issues around representation in biographies and statements of support, and possibilities for allowing members greater opportunity to engage with and question candidates prior to the election. More generally, the task force will be aiming to ensure that those who stand for the board have the right expertise and background. We are, as of now, seeking volunteers willing to join the task force. We would like to see a diverse group of members apply, representing different regions and sectors of the membership. Please note that all meetings of the task force will be held remotely and will be organised by the RIPE NCC. To volunteer, please email agm(a)ripe.net by 8 July, remembering to let us know your country and organisation. We will then announce further details to you once the task force is formed. Kind regards Christian Kaufmann Executive Board Chairman RIPE NCC

2 1

Re: [members-discuss] [EXT] [ncc-announce] [service] IPv4 Transfer Listing Service
by Grumboeck Johannes (POI - AT/Salzburg) 24 Jun '20

24 Jun '20

Thanks, this is great news! Best regards JOHANNES GRUMBÖCK Porsche Informatik E-Mail/Chat johannes.grumboeck(a)porscheinformatik.com Internal -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: ncc-announce <ncc-announce-bounces(a)ripe.net> Im Auftrag von Felipe Victolla Silveira Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Juni 2020 10:36 An: ncc-announce(a)ripe.net Betreff: [EXT] [ncc-announce] [service] IPv4 Transfer Listing Service Dear members, Thank you for providing feedback on the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service. The comments were constructive and it was very helpful to find that there is support for the service. What we heard was that while the listing service might not be used that much, it's worth preserving an option for members who don't want to go through a broker. That being the case, and as there is no urgent need to retire the service, we will keep it as-is for now. We are just about to start our planning for next year. Given that transfers will probably be with us for longer than we want to continue supporting the current implementation, we will also see if we can find a more permanent solution. Regards, Felipe Victolla Silveira Chief Operations Officer RIPE NCC

3 2

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [service] IPv4 Transfer Listing Service
by Max Tulyev 24 Jun '20

24 Jun '20

Dear Felipe, great, thank you! P.S. Have you any plans to open the Escrow service for members' resources transfer? I think it will be great too! 24.06.20 11:36, Felipe Victolla Silveira пише: > Dear members, > > Thank you for providing feedback on the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service. > The comments were constructive and it was very helpful to find that > there is support for the service. > > What we heard was that while the listing service might not be used that > much, it's worth preserving an option for members who don't want to go > through a broker. That being the case, and as there is no urgent need to > retire the service, we will keep it as-is for now. > > We are just about to start our planning for next year. Given that > transfers will probably be with us for longer than we want to continue > supporting the current implementation, we will also see if we can find a > more permanent solution. > > Regards, > > Felipe Victolla Silveira > Chief Operations Officer > RIPE NCC > >

1 0

Re: [members-discuss] Decommissioning the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service
by José Manuel Giner 20 Jun '20

20 Jun '20

Hello, I am interested in keeping that list, we are part of the list to buy IPs and we like to receive offers from other LIRs. Thanks. On 10/06/2020 12:59, Felipe Victolla Silveira wrote: > Dear members, > > In my update at RIPE 80[1], I mentioned that we would like to > decommission the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service unless there there were > strong objections. So far, we have heard no requests to keep the service. > > In case anyone is unfamiliar with this, the listing service allows > members to offer/request IPv4 prefixes for transfer: > https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/resource-transfers-and-mergers/lis… > > While there are currently 681,000 IPv4 addresses "offered" on the > listing service, when we attempted to match LIRs that had used the > service with those that went on to make a transfer, we couldn't find > much of a correlation. Of the 1,969 LIRs that transferred resources in > our service region last year, only 76 had posted on the listing service > and it's not clear whether the service actually connected the > offering/receiving parties for these cases. > > As the listing service is reaching the end of its lifespan, a full > reimplementation would be needed to continue supporting it. Given that > the listing service does not appear to be adding much in terms of value, > spending development time on this does seem like a good use of members' > funds. > > We are therefore planning to discontinue the IPv4 Transfer Listing > Service on 22 June. If you have strong objections to this, please let us > know or share feedback on members-discuss. > > Regards > > Felipe Victolla Silveira > Chief Operations Officer > RIPE NCC > > [1] RIPE NCC Operational Update: > https://ripe80.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/28-Operational-Upd… > -- José Manuel Giner https://ginernet.com

4 3

Feedback on Mailing List/Board Election Issues
by Christian Kaufmann 13 Jun '20

13 Jun '20

Dear members, Those of you following this mailing list may have noticed some disruption as we approached the last GM. Many of you shared your concerns, either on this list or by emailing the board directly - thank you. At the last GM, we promised to follow up with more details. With the election out of the way, we can now discuss whether changes are needed to avoid repeats of this behaviour in the future. >From the feedback we received, we can identify three main areas of concern: 1. Contact information was taken from the RIPE Database and/or the list of RIPE NCC members and was used to spam members with unsolicited emails. 2. Actions on this list were not in line with expectations outlined in the RIPE community's Code of Conduct and were generally unacceptable. There were also concerns that this behaviour, along with some of the allegations made on the mailing list, were damaging to the RIPE NCC's reputation. 3. The person responsible for the above behaviour was able to stand as a candidate in the RIPE NCC Executive Board elections. There were some voices asking for a process to exclude this candidate from the elections. In this email, I would like to look at issues #1 and #2 individually (#3 will be covered in a separate email after further discussion by the board). 1. ABUSE OF MEMBER CONTACT INFORMATION Many of you will recognise that this is not exactly uncommon. In the past there have been a number of instances where third parties (usually vendors or IPv4 brokers) have spammed RIPE Database contacts. When notified, the RIPE NCC follows what is generally considered common practice in these cases: it notifies the responsible party that they are violating the terms of the database and asks them to stop. The RIPE NCC reserves the right to pursue further legal action, though warnings have generally been enough to stop the behaviour. No one likes spam, and we appreciate that many of you want the RIPE NCC to do more, especially as this is a violation of your data protection rights. As long as the RIPE Database remains an open and public database, we expect that this may continue to be an issue. Perhaps this is something for members to raise with the RIPE Database Requirements Task Force on an individual basis. Individual members are also within their rights to report cases to their local data protection authorities where their personal information has been abused (the RIPE NCC is not able to do this on their behalf). 2. UNACCEPTABLE MAILING LIST BEHAVIOUR / DAMAGE TO THE RIPE NCC'S REPUTATION Regarding mailing list behaviour, in most cases this should not be complicated. The board is responsible for this list and it is within our remit to moderate or remove members from the list if we believe they are acting inappropriately. However, in this case the person who was abusing the mailing list was a candidate in the board elections. This led to concerns that we might be exposed to legal claims that we had attempted to influence the outcome of the election through any actions or statements in relation to this behaviour. Given the number of complaints we received, the board eventually took the decision to put the mailing list into moderation. One board member who was not up for re-election and one RIPE NCC staff member made the decisions on what to moderate, and an unmoderated archive allowed for a transparent record of what was removed: https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/members-discuss-unmoderated/2020-Ma… Regarding the concerns about damaging the reputation of the RIPE NCC: while there is a provision in the Standard Service Agreement (SSA) that allows for the agreement to be terminated in the event that the RIPE NCC's reputation is damaged, in this case no one seemed to believe the claims, so no actual “damage” occurred. It therefore appears that the only issue that requires further investigation is how the board can ensure appropriate conduct on this mailing list when the person in question is a candidate in the board elections. The board would like to know your thoughts: - Should the same approach be used next time (moderation + unmoderated archive for transparency)? - Does the membership feel confident with moderation being overseen by the Executive Board and RIPE NCC staff, or would you prefer an alternate arrangement - Is there value in a task force of members to examine these issues? 3. ABILITY TO STAND AS A CANDIDATE IN BOARD ELECTIONS As mentioned above, the board is giving special attention to this issue. We plan to discuss this in a separate email in the near future. Kind regards Christian Kaufmann Executive Board Chairman RIPE NCC

6 7

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [service] Decommissioning the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service
by David Croft 11 Jun '20

11 Jun '20

Hi Felipe If I was in the need of additional IPv4 space, I would much rather go to a location that is (a) central (b) legitimate (c) verifies that the transferer actually has the rights to the address space and (d) where I can be reasonably assured the sellers abide by RIPE policies. I assume following recent discussions that those brokers found breaking RIPE policy are now actively being removed, so this list is probably the best I could hope for. And any other listing service would not have the ability that you do to verify that the user has the address space in question registered to them. I would much rather this service continue to be maintained by the NCC than have to trawl the internet and deal with some of the shadier characters out there. And I don't feel it is a big ask of the NCC, as it falls under the core remit of responsible stewardship of the resources. And a note on the timing and your perceived utilisation statistics. Just because I have not had a need for it just yet, does not mean I cannot foresee a circumstance in the near future where I will need it. We have only just reached the point of IPv4 runout. I would also raise concerns that "a full reimplementation would be needed to continue supporting it" - how has it been allowed to be developed in such an unmaintainable manner that this is the only way to continue operating it? Regards David On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 12:59, Felipe Victolla Silveira <fvictolla(a)ripe.net> wrote: > Dear members, > > In my update at RIPE 80[1], I mentioned that we would like to decommission > the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service unless there there were strong > objections. So far, we have heard no requests to keep the service. > > In case anyone is unfamiliar with this, the listing service allows members > to offer/request IPv4 prefixes for transfer: > > https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/resource-transfers-and-mergers/lis… > > While there are currently 681,000 IPv4 addresses "offered" on the listing > service, when we attempted to match LIRs that had used the service with > those that went on to make a transfer, we couldn't find much of a > correlation. Of the 1,969 LIRs that transferred resources in our service > region last year, only 76 had posted on the listing service and it's not > clear whether the service actually connected the offering/receiving parties > for these cases. > > As the listing service is reaching the end of its lifespan, a full > reimplementation would be needed to continue supporting it. Given that the > listing service does not appear to be adding much in terms of value, > spending development time on this does seem like a good use of members' > funds. > > We are therefore planning to discontinue the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service > on 22 June. If you have strong objections to this, please let us know or > share feedback on members-discuss. > > Regards > > Felipe Victolla Silveira > Chief Operations Officer > RIPE NCC > > [1] RIPE NCC Operational Update: > > https://ripe80.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/28-Operational-Upd… >

9 11

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [service] Decommissioning the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service
by Hank Nussbacher 11 Jun '20

11 Jun '20

1 0

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [service] Decommissioning the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service
by Andrei Banu 10 Jun '20

10 Jun '20

Hello, Generally speaking I am happy with RIPE so please consider this only as a feedback, not as a complaint. I don't think that some bad stats necessarily warrant the total discontinuation of this service. Maybe RIPE should not act as a company that discontinues a product that is not popular. Maybe if the service would be truly enhanced, it would have more users. Additionally we can't know for sure where things will go in the future. Up until recently RIPE members were getting one /22 upon signup. As this is now gone, some LIRs might need to start purchasing. I might be very wrong but I feel that RIPE should have involved a lot more from the very start in most regards associated with this problem (cleaning up the unfair LIRs, some supervision, escrow etc) so that any exchange is done in a protected/vetted environment for it's members. Again, apologies if I don't comprehend the scale of the implications of such expectations. I don't know what resources it would require to be enhanced but when it comes to such an expensive resource as IPv4 (which is only going to get even more expensive as the time passes by), we would very much want some RIPE services in this regard for a little bit more peace of mind. So as a member we "vote" to keep this service either in the current form or in an enhanced one. Kind regards! On 10/06/2020 13:59, Felipe Victolla Silveira wrote: > Dear members, > > In my update at RIPE 80[1], I mentioned that we would like to > decommission the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service unless there there were > strong objections. So far, we have heard no requests to keep the service. > > In case anyone is unfamiliar with this, the listing service allows > members to offer/request IPv4 prefixes for transfer: > https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/resource-transfers-and-mergers/lis… > > While there are currently 681,000 IPv4 addresses "offered" on the > listing service, when we attempted to match LIRs that had used the > service with those that went on to make a transfer, we couldn't find > much of a correlation. Of the 1,969 LIRs that transferred resources in > our service region last year, only 76 had posted on the listing > service and it's not clear whether the service actually connected the > offering/receiving parties for these cases. > > As the listing service is reaching the end of its lifespan, a full > reimplementation would be needed to continue supporting it. Given that > the listing service does not appear to be adding much in terms of > value, spending development time on this does seem like a good use of > members' funds. > > We are therefore planning to discontinue the IPv4 Transfer Listing > Service on 22 June. If you have strong objections to this, please let > us know or share feedback on members-discuss. > > Regards > > Felipe Victolla Silveira > Chief Operations Officer > RIPE NCC > > [1] RIPE NCC Operational Update: > https://ripe80.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/28-Operational-Upd…

1 0

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [service] Decommissioning the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service
by U. Ozan Başar 10 Jun '20

10 Jun '20

Hello, We used the listing service for reaching interested parties while taking offers. Having such a list brings the right people together. If there was no such list, we had to contact a broker. In my opinion this service is useful and should continue to its life. Sincerely U. Ozan Basar /Nano Internet Technologies +90 850 433 62 66 Istanbul Cad Hamurcu Trade Center No:12/27 Bakirkoy Istanbul Turkey / 10.06.2020 13:59 tarihinde Felipe Victolla Silveira yazdı: > Dear members, > > In my update at RIPE 80[1], I mentioned that we would like to > decommission the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service unless there there were > strong objections. So far, we have heard no requests to keep the service. > > In case anyone is unfamiliar with this, the listing service allows > members to offer/request IPv4 prefixes for transfer: > https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/resource-transfers-and-mergers/lis… > > While there are currently 681,000 IPv4 addresses "offered" on the > listing service, when we attempted to match LIRs that had used the > service with those that went on to make a transfer, we couldn't find > much of a correlation. Of the 1,969 LIRs that transferred resources in > our service region last year, only 76 had posted on the listing > service and it's not clear whether the service actually connected the > offering/receiving parties for these cases. > > As the listing service is reaching the end of its lifespan, a full > reimplementation would be needed to continue supporting it. Given that > the listing service does not appear to be adding much in terms of > value, spending development time on this does seem like a good use of > members' funds. > > We are therefore planning to discontinue the IPv4 Transfer Listing > Service on 22 June. If you have strong objections to this, please let > us know or share feedback on members-discuss. > > Regards > > Felipe Victolla Silveira > Chief Operations Officer > RIPE NCC > > [1] RIPE NCC Operational Update: > https://ripe80.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/28-Operational-Upd…

6 5

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [service] Decommissioning the IPv4 Transfer Listing Service
by Pavel Polyakov 10 Jun '20

10 Jun '20

The stats are surprising me too. I haven't used the service but it is definitely where I would look first if I needed to. I vote to keep it alive. PP

2 1