February 2019 - members-discuss

is the RIPE NCC GDPR compliant ?
by Elvis Daniel Velea 24 Feb '19

24 Feb '19

Hi everyone, this e-mail is addressed to the RIPE NCC, but because they have continuously ignored the issues raised at the RIPE Meeting in Amsterdam, I am going to formally ask them to fix these things which, I believe, are not GDPR compliant. 1. Ticketing system - when someone wants to open a ticket with the RIPE NCC, the only way to do that is by sending an e-mail. It would be stupid to ask users to send e-mail without attachments (in order to open the ticket) and then go to the LIR Portal and upload documents to that ticket but it seems the RIPE NCC is asking exactly that from the members. - when someone sends an e-mail to the RIPE NCC and includes documents (RIPE NCC often requests company registration documents and - sometimes - copies of passports/IDs) the links to those documents hosted on zendesk are returned to the sender and (sometimes) all the LIR contacts. If that e-mail is forwarded to anyone, it includes the zendesk links and therefore anyone that receives the RIPE NCC e-mail or a forward of that e-mail will receive links to company registration documents and IDs of people. I doubt this is GDPR compliant and I would like a response from the RIPE NCC on why they have not fixed this issue even if it was reported 4 months ago. Several ways to fix this: - e-mails sent by zendesk should not include any link - allow users to create tickets and communicate to the RIPE NCC via the LIR Portal and stop e-mail communication with members 2. RIPE DB The RIPE NCC Customer Services Department forcefully (*) creates person objects in the RIPE Database _MAINTAINED BY THE MAINTAINER OF THE LIR!!!_ for the people that sign a contract with the RIPE NCC. It also forces companies that use role objects associated with their resources to actually have a person object referenced in the role object (so no circular reference or a reference to an other role object). Why is the RIPE NCC using the LIR's maintainer to create users without even requesting the LIR's acceptance? What else is the RIPE NCC creating with the LIR's maintainer? I was under the impression that creating and publishing thousands of person objects in the RIPE Database may not be GDPR compliant. Actually, there was a discussion in Amsterdam about this and the general understanding is that companies that do this will be contacted by the RIPE NCC to stop doing it and clean up their data. Well, who will listen to an organization that does exactly what they should not be doing? Why would you need to use a person object in the RIPE DB if a role object is an option? Oh, to make things worse, every time someone registers an additional LIR, the RIPE NCC keeps creating duplicate objects instead of re-using the ones already created *by them*. Dear RIPE NCC, when will you update your procedures to be GDPR compliant? (*) We have created the following objects in the RIPE Database for <LIR>'s public profile: [...] ORGANISATION: https://apps.db.ripe.net/db-web-ui/#/lookup?source=ripe&key=<ORG>&type=organisation MNTNER: https://apps.db.ripe.net/db-web-ui/#/lookup?source=ripe&key=<MNT>&type=mntner ROLE: https://apps.db.ripe.net/db-web-ui/#/lookup?source=ripe&key=<ROLE>&type=role *ADMIN-C: https://apps.db.ripe.net/db-web-ui/#/lookup?source=ripe&key=<PERSON>&type=person** **TECH-C: https://apps.db.ripe.net/db-web-ui/#/lookup?source=ripe&key=<PERSON>&type=person* Kind regards, Elvis -- Elvis Daniel Velea V4Escrow LLC Chief Executive Officer E-mail: elvis(a)v4escrow.net Mobile: +1 (702) 970 0921

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RIPE legal: Please stop this madness!
by Markus Stalder 20 Feb '19

20 Feb '19

Hi list! My company has been a RIPE LIR for 17 years now. This week was the first time ever that I became, was and still am really, really pissed at RIPE. There's some madness going on in RIPEs legal department. It appears they recently hired some retard who now wants to prove he/she is a smartass. Harsh words, but I have no other explanation for what's going on right now! Here's the story: Sunday, 10th February, 17:08 CET: I sent away the online application for an additional LIR account. Automatic E-Mail confirmation received. Monday, 11th February, 15:07 CET: I didn't receive a human reply yet, and since the business day was nearing its end, I mailed them about the status, and asked whether I could come by their Amsterdam office the next day to sign the required documents - in order to speed up the whole process. Monday, 11th February, 15:57 CET: Reply from RIPE. Let me just copy and paste: "I regret to inform you that we do not offer the possibility to sign your contracts in our office and regrettably there is no option to speed up the application procedure." - Ok, no biggie. But then: Quote start. "We can see that this is an additional LIR account for Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG. We are currently reviewing applications with a legal entity type 'GmbH & Co. KG' together with our legal department and they have stated the following: "GmbH & Co. KG" is a sub-form of a "KG" (partnership). It normally consists of a general partner and one or more limited partners, which can be legal or natural persons. According to "Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE NCC Registration Data" the signing party of an agreement can either be a legal or a natural person. A "KG" is not considered a legal person and cant be the signing party in our agreements. The agreement can be signed though by one of the legal or natural persons that are partners (general or limited). We therefore cannot register Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG. As you already have an LIR account with us, we will have to update your existing account, de.lightupnet, before we can register this second account for Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG. I created a new ticket for your company update and my colleagues will contact you shortly for the update." Quote end. That didn't sound so good. I've had a company with the legal form GmbH & Co. KG (it's a German company) for about 15 years now and my initial gut feeling was "That's just plain bullsh*t!". Tuesday, 12th February, 12:30: I receive another E-Mail. New ticket, as they promised. Quote start. "It has come to our attention, that the legal name of your LIR account has been registered incorrectly. It was advised by our Legal Department that the legal form of your company as "GmbH & Co. KG" is a form of a general partnership that does not have a legal personality. If there is a document proving opposite, please send it to us. According to our procedure, we can only sign an agreement with a legal person that has a legal personality or a natural person. Therefore, we will have to correct your legal name to <Markus Stalder trading as "Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG">, instead of <Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG>." Quote end. They also asked that I upload a photo/scan of my passport, which I did. I just thought: Ok, let them have their way. If they want to change my LIRs description, who really cares. All I want is to create a 2nd LIR and speed this whole thing up. But, since they want to be SO LEGALLY CORRECT, I replied and mentioned the following. Let me copy and paste. Quote start. "I just uploaded my passport. However, following your logic, you need to change all of the following German legal forms in your database to "Individual-name trading as ...": - OHG - KG - GmbH & Co. OHG - GmbH & Co. KG I understand that you would have to do that with a GbR, as a GbR cannot get registered in the commercial register of companies and you need to specify the names of the individuals. But I think with the above 4 legal forms you are making as mistake here. Although it is correct that a GmbH & Co. KG does not have a legal personality that differs from its general partners (Persoenlich haftende Gesellschafterin) or limited partners (Kommanditist), a GmbH & Co. KG is still a legal entity as its able to sue in front of court, or get sued in front of court. A GmbH & Co. KG can also purchase rights and enter into liabilities, can purchase property and other in rem rights related to estates. (Source: <https://www.frankfurt-main.ihk.de/existenzgruendung/rechtsfragen/idem/kg/>) That being said, since Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG was founded, I have never ever signed a contract where the contractual partner was "Markus Stalder trading as Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG" but the contractual partner was always Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG. That includes application forms towards government entities as well as contracts with larger corporations. Actually, my gut feeling based on my own experience with my GmbH & Co. KG in the last decades tells me that you are making a mistake here. And, if you want to be really accurate: You must be aware that the Kommanditist (limited partner) is not allowed to represent the company. That is something only the Komplementaerin (general partner) can do. The general partner of Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG is AirAccess GmbH. I'm attaching both company extracts for your convenience. So, correct would be: AirAccess GmbH trading as Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG" Quote end. Wednesday, 13th February 2019, 18:02: Reply from RIPE. Quote start: "Many thanks for the clarification and the provided documents. Please be informed that our Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE NCC Registration Data <https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-700> has been implemented in 2018. As the application process for our members was not so strict before, it was possible to register an LIR account under the partnership name. Currently, we are working on correcting these details in the Database. At this moment we are reviewing German applications with a legal entity type 'GmbH & Co. KG' together with our legal department. Thus the information you provided is very helpful. On the review the documents you submitted, we indeed can see that "AirAccess GmbH" is a general partner with a special right to represent the company. The names of both LIR accounts (de.lightupnet, de.lightupnet1) will be corrected tomorrow. It will be confirmed to you once the accounts are updated." Quote end. ... another day passes ... Thursday, 14th February 2019, 16:11: Now for the E-Mail from RIPE that blew my mind, in a negative sense. Quote start: "Many thanks for your patience. We have reviewed your case internally and agreed that there is no need to sign a new agreement for LIR account <de.lightupnet>, as it was signed by the director of the company. It has also come to our attention that, the company AirAccess GmbH (reg. No HRB 56386) already has LIR account <de.airaccess>. Therefore LIR <de.airaccess> should be linked as an additional account to <de.lightupnet>, and <de.lightupnet1>. Please be informed that the following will be applied to all additional LIR accounts: - The /22 IPv4 allocation you will receive is subject to the RIPE NCC Transfer Policy and can therefore only be transferred 24 months after the allocation date. - Members with multiple LIR accounts are entitled to just one vote at RIPE NCC General Meetings. The oldest LIR account will receive the vote. - If you wish to transfer internet resources between your LIR accounts, you need to pay the full annual service fee for all LIR accounts. - If you wish to close LIR account, you need to pay the full annual service fee for all LIR accounts. At this moment could you please inform us what name you prefer for LIR accounts <de.lightupnet>, <de.lightupnet1>: "AirAccess GmbH" or "AirAccess GmbH trading us Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG"? Once it is clarified, we will proceed with updating the legal details of your accounts and process the application for <de.lightupnet1>." Quote end. Spontaneous thought: HOLY F*CK, ARE THEY SERIOUS ?! ?! ?! They want to change the name of my company - Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG - to a completely different company: AirAccess GmbH !!! Totally unrelated to each other, different business, different company, different everything! THEY MUST BE NUTS! Here my reply: Quote start. "Hi <name of RIPE NCC support person>, thanks for your mail. Ok, now you are really taking it over the top. 1) You want to link AirAccess GmbH as an additional account to de.lightupnet. And you want to do this for a company which is a legal entity by itself. I do not allow you to do this. AirAccess GmbH is a legal entity by itself and I do not want that you change anything about its current LIR status, name or anything else. 2) You are offering that I can choose the name for de.lightupnet and de.lightupnet1 to be "AirAccess GmbH", a company which is an entity by itself and is merely the Komplementaerin for Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & GmbH Co. KG. I'm shocked by that idea. That is just completely wrong. Of course I do NOT want de.lightupnet and de.lightupnet1 to be named "AirAccess GmbH" because it would be an factual error. And I don't want RIPE to make wrong statements about our company/companies towards the public. It would be like offering to present nl.ripe as KPN. Or Nike as Adidas. As it appears right now your legal department is doing a mistake when it comes to understanding how GmbH + Co. KGs work. Could you also please let me know the E-Mail address or telephone number where I can file a complaint about this whole procedure? Thank you." Quote end. This is where it stands right now. It's Friday, 15th February. The work week is over. I'm sitting here, waiting for RIPE since Monday to send me the LIR agreement for the 2nd LIR, so that I can sign it, pay it, and be done with it. My rhetorical questions are: 1) Are they fucking serious ... I can't remember the last time I was this angry at anyone. 2) It's RIPE. A large, established organisation that's been around forever. WHY THE F*CK does it take them always 1 day to process something, to reply to something? They have TONS of employees, they have TONS of LIRs that pay them TONS of money, why is everything moving so slowly with them ?! ?! ?! It's 2019, not 1995 FOR F*CKS SAKE !!! Get your act together and adapt to the times, modernize yourself and BE FASTER. UARRRGHHHL. 3) Why in heavens name do they EXACTLY have to start with this whole f*cked-up process when I ACTUALLY need something from them (a 2nd LIR account)? Why in this very moment? Yeah, because my company popped up on their screen because I applied for a 2nd LIR account, makes sense. But, could they not simply process the damn LIR application at the same time to speed this whole thing up, and later change this sh*t. No, of course, it would be not efficient for them to do that, but it's NOT MY FAULT they didn't ask to update this data/fix this company sh*t earlier. But now THEY MAKE IT MY PROBLEM. Because I'm losing precious time. F*CK! 4) If you look at the LIR list for Germany here - <https://www.ripe.net/membership/indices/DE.html> - and search for "GmbH & Co. KG" in the document, you will see many companies that are still "unchanged": Company name GmbH & Co. KG, but you will also see some that were already "updated" according to RIPE logic: "Firstname Lastname trading as Company GmbH & Co. KG" - the "funny" thing is that this is just wrong as I explained earlier. They have to re-do all these changes. By looking at this list it appears I'm the first where they offer to change it to "Another-company-name GmbH trading as Company GmbH & Co. KG" JUST BECAUSE I told them that with GmbH & Co. KGs the Kommanditist is not allowed to represent the company. So, being the first, and looking at that list for comparison tells me they have no idea what they are doing! Have a good day everyone and down with unnecessary, over-the-top bureaucracy! It's 2019 FOR F*CKS SAKE!!! Regards Markus Mit freundlichen Grüßen Markus Stalder ms(a)lightupnet.de Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG http://www.lightupnet.de Fon +49 (0)69 962 4456 0 (Zentrale) Fon +49 (0)69 962 4456 11 (Durchwahl) Fax +49 (0)69 962 4456 20 __________________________________________________ Please direct all support issues directly to support(a)lightupnet.de. This will guarantee fastest processing possible. Bitte richten Sie alle Support-Anfragen direkt an support(a)lightupnet.de. Nur so ist die schnellst- mögliche Bearbeitung gewährleistet. __________________________________________________

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2019 Invoices for Russian Members
by Gwen van Berne 20 Feb '19

20 Feb '19

Dear members, Tomorrow we will be emailing our Russian members to let them know that they can expect to receive their invoices by early March. This delay is due to some minor adjustments we had to make to the tailored invoices we provide to our Russian members. As our billing processes are automated, these changes will take time to implement properly. Please email <billing(a)ripe.net> if you have any questions. Kind regards, Gwen van Berne Chief Financial Officer RIPE NCC

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Billing scheme
by Serhii Khomenko 20 Feb '19

20 Feb '19

Dear RIPC NCC, I have received a notification that billing scheme would be changed from quarterly to annually. But it will be impossible for me to pay such big amount of money in one time. I ask you not to change the payment scheme. As I'm a private entrepreneur, it will be impossible to pay such amount in one payment. Hope for your understanding. -- Kind regards, Serhii Khomenko

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New Charging Scheme
by TrustHost 19 Feb '19

19 Feb '19

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Re: [members-discuss] [EXTERNAL] Re: New Charging Scheme
by CloudScape 19 Feb '19

19 Feb '19

We have also had issues with RIPE refusing to accept information and official UK documents (that we had to pay to obtain), then demanding documents that simply do not exist in the UK. I'm not sure if RIPE needs to understand different countries have dfferent rules/regulations and legal documents or if the rules need to be changed to allow them to accept "equivalent" legal documents. Either way, the current situation, is very unsatisfactory and needs to be addressed. Regards Robert Harrison CloudScape Connect Ltd At 14:52:00 19/02/2019, you wrote: > From: Patterson, Richard (Sky Network Services (SNS)) > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:44 PM [snip] > > It felt like the IPv4-conservative approach was being applied to IPv6, and > that kind of defeats the purpose IMO. I have experienced this as well. For technical reasons (not convenience), I needed another /29 (or rather 6 /32's). This turned out to take too long and too much of my time, so I gave up and opened another LIR simply for the /29 IPv6. Of course that meant I had to buy one less /22 IPv4 on the free market, so the tight IPv6 policies directly caused faster depletion of IPv4. Though I don't know whether this happens often enough to be significant, it's still ass-backwards. -- Regards, Terrence Koeman, PhD/MTh/BPsy Darkness Reigns (Holding) B.V. Please quote relevant replies. _______________________________________________ members-discuss mailing list members-discuss(a)ripe.net https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/info%40cloudscapecon…

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Re: [members-discuss] [EXTERNAL] Re: New Charging Scheme
by Jørgen Hovland 19 Feb '19

19 Feb '19

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Re: [members-discuss] RIPE legal: Please stop this madness!
by Terrence Koeman 18 Feb '19

18 Feb '19

If you don't need the /22, then why are you registering an additional LIR? You can get ipv6 for your existing LIR... BTW, legally RIPE's position seems correct. The German partnership seems very much the same as a Dutch partnership. A LIR needs to be in the name of a legal person, and a partnership is not a legal person distinct from the partners. The liability would pass through the partnership when being sued and is just a convenience when suing that's identical to all partners being named as plaintiffs. So, if liability is severable and not joint, I'd suggest the proper way to name the entity is as "[and¦,] [and ] trading as ". If liability is joint and not severable (ie each partner or at least the main partner is always 100% liable for the partnership), then RIPE's suggestion to roll the LIRs for the partnership into the LIR of the main partner is correct, as there is no legal difference between the partnership (as non-legal person) and the main partner (ie the main partner is the only one that may sign and is 100% liable for the partnership, so legally there's no distinction at all between a contract signed as the partnership or the legal person that is the main partner). That there is another partner in the partnership is legally irrelevant in that case. I would guess that liability for partnerships is joint in Germany as it is in The Netherlands and RIPE is correct. It may make you angry, but RIPE didn't make the laws! -- Regards, Terrence Koeman, PhD/MTh/BPsy Darkness Reigns (Holding) B.V. Please quote relevant replies. Spelling errors courtesy of my 'smart'phone. ________________________________ From: Markus Stalder <ms(a)lightupnet.de> Sent: Monday, 18 February 2019 11:21 To: members-discuss(a)ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] RIPE legal: Please stop this madness! > --On 18.02.2019 09:24 +0000 Brandon Butterworth <brandon(a)rd.bbc.co.uk> > wrote: > > > My thought too. What are they playing at giving you an additional /22 > > which are supposed to be for new companies only. > > > > If I were you I'd shut up and do as they ask to collect my bonus /22, > > Useless reply because you missed the point completely. > > You should not tar everyone with the same brush, buddy. > > They can keep the /22, we don't need it. > > > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen > > Markus Stalder > ms(a)lightupnet.de > > Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG > http://www.lightupnet.de > > Fon +49 (0)69 962 4456 0 (Zentrale) > Fon +49 (0)69 962 4456 11 (Durchwahl) > Fax +49 (0)69 962 4456 20 > __________________________________________________ > > Please direct all support issues directly to > support(a)lightupnet.de. This will guarantee fastest > processing possible. > > Bitte richten Sie alle Support-Anfragen direkt an > support(a)lightupnet.de. Nur so ist die schnellst- > mögliche Bearbeitung gewährleistet. > __________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/terrence%40darkness-…

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