April 2018 - members-discuss - mailman.ripe.net

Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents
by Erik Bais 25 Jun '18

25 Jun '18

Dear members, I like to open a discussion to have the SSA updated into this century .. to allow for acceptance of the documents to be send in via the RIPE NCC Portal ( with SSO ) or send in by email after being signed, or the RIPE NCC to use a method of digital signature like the usage of DocuSign, Echosign or something similar. The acceptance of a digital signature has been allowed by EU law since December 1999, ( EU Directive 99/93/EG - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31999L0093 ) and implemented in Dutch law since 2003 (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0015046/2003-05-21 ) We are currently in 2018 and the SSA still refers to a device that most of our children never heard of or have seen ..... named a fax machine… <snip> https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-673 Article 2 – General 2.1 The RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement shall come into effect by means of an offer and an acceptance. 2.2 To enter into the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, the following documents have to be sent to the RIPE NCC by post or fax: · One copy of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement containing the handwritten signature of an authorised representative of the Member · A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities. Upon receipt of these documents by the RIPE NCC, the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement is considered to be concluded. The RIPE NCC shall not commence the provision of the RIPE NCC services until these documents have been received. Conclusion of the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement establishes a RIPE NCC membership. </snip> While most of the fax implementations these days, including the one at the RIPE NCC office, is a device that stores an image copy of a document on a server. Not many companies have a paper print fax anymore these days.. That document from those fax or multi-copier devices can then be printed by the local printer or stored digitally in a database attached to a LIR application as an attachment. Similar as if someone would scan the signed SSA and email the document .. However the current wording in the SSA doesn’t allow for that type of scenario .. and it should be updated to a more neutral wording to allow a better usage of technology. If we can sign for a mortgage application in The Netherlands using a digital signature, why can’t we apply for a new LIR with a digital signature. This will also allow for a much smoother new members to complete their application .. Using digital signatures will reduce the fees to DHL, speed up the complete on-boarding process and reduce the handling fees at the RIPE office. <sarcasm> For those that like to keep doing things, like we always did .. The city of Amsterdam is also in the process to dis-allow the usage of horse and carriage in the city. So if someone would like to take a ride by horse carriage to the postal office and use their fax machine there .. that is something that you cannot do for a long time anymore as well … https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/na-bierfiets-is-het-ook-einde-verhaal-… </sarcasm> And for countries that don’t allow the usage of digital signatures or members that don’t want to use the new digital signature system, there is always the option to request the paper SSA to be send via DHL and have it signed and returned. Similar as we are currently also allowing those options for invoices … Kind regards, Erik Bais

14 20

RIPE NCC and the geopolitical situation
by Sascha Luck [ml] 10 Jun '18

10 Jun '18

All, the recent discussion about moving the NCC and the relative political stability of countries in the service region has caused me to think about the RIPE NCC in the current political context. THere appears to be an incipient issue here: 1) Problem statement the current geopolitical situation in the RIPE service region has, unfortunately, greatly degraded in the recent past. There are territorial conflicts (Ukraine/Russia), there are outright civil wars (Syria, Afghanistan) and, perhaps closest to "home", the cold war is back between "The West" and Russia as well as Iran (both in the RIPE service region). The rhetoric in both the EU and NATO (both of which NL is a member of) is becoming increasingly belligerent and there is an increasing likelihood of this stance leading to unilateral sanctions against those seen as "enemies". Since "internet propaganda", "Russian Trolls", etc are now often taking the blame for every ill in Europe, I should be surprised if those didn't also include internet resources. I would not see it without the realm of the possible, that increasing political/legal pressure would be brought on the RIPE NCC to deny service and perhaps revoke resources allocated to these enemies-du-jour. 2) Possible outcomes - Sanctioned countries might take their ball and go elsewhere (another RIR?) - Sanctioned countries might take their resources and set up their own RIR, approved by IANA or, more likely, not. - They might refuse (or be prohibited from) cooperation with the original IANA/RIR/LIR system. - In a worst-case scenario this could lead to the same resources used by "opposing" RIRs and a fracturing of the internet. - In such a case, it is hard to imagine the ITU (as an UN body) *not* taking control of resource management to prevent such a fracture. 3) Mitigations - The only one I can think of is relocating the NCC to a country - if that exists- which is neutral and does not participate in these block fights (Switzerland?, Sweden?). As a question to the board: does the RIPE NCC have any contingency plans to mitigate this situation when it occurs? Kind Regards, Sascha Luck - resources

6 5

Multiple LIR account mergers
by Aleksey Bulgakov 04 May '18

04 May '18

Hello, all. What do you think if the NCC allow to merge accounts of the same company without 24 months restriction? I thing this question should be discussed on the RIPE meeting in Marseille. ----- Kind regards, Alexey

23 29

Re: [members-discuss] Russian government blocked 18mln IPs at 20/04/2018
by Juri 30 Apr '18

30 Apr '18

Hi Oliver, Telegram is still online and become more and more popular. It uses some tricks to stay online and find the way to connect to internet. But a lot of Russian and non-Russian Internet businesses affected (Europe, USA). Russian government doesn't care if they block anything else. Some data centers can't give services to Russian customers (hezner, ovh, just as example). At this weekend they started to block even Google website IPs (about 70 Ips from 600 known) because Google just didn't do what they wanted against Telegram. RKN officially stated that. Juri On 23.04.2018 10:25, Huf Oliver, CI-A Rolls-Royce Power Systems AG wrote: > Don't you see that this is already happening: The infrastructure delivers all the options for the *application* to protect itself from this kind of disturbance. > And successfully so: Telegram is still working even with this massive intervention! > To me this looks like a very resilient app and network design. > > All the other "stuff" going down is collateral: could happen in a natural disaster situation as well. > > Well done, Internet! -- Juri +7 (499) 346-76-29

10 11

Russian government blocked 2mln IPs at 16/04/2018
by Juri 24 Apr '18

24 Apr '18

Good time of day! I want to bring up discussion about situation in Internet inside Russian Federation. I find current situation not good for Internet, not good for RIPE community, for ISPs and for progress itself. Short background. Russian government asked Telegram messenger service (like Viber, Watsup, etc, they can be the next) to give them keys of end-to-end encryption between users. Telegram refused to give it because it stands for freedom, constitution rights of people and telegram says it's not possible to give that keys because they don't have it. At least at Friday 13 of April 2018 they blocked websites of Telegram and at Monday 16 they blocked all technical networks of Telegram inside Russian Federation. This Monday was really nice and fun day when users of the Telegram, the most popular messenger application in Russia, started to add VPN/Socks settings to unblock telegram. Telegram users are good in IT and a lot of people keep telegram online and use it. What did Russian government (who keeps using Telegram messenger as well) started to do? Yes, They started to block VPN services that gives free socks5 proxies and VPNs for telegram users. A lot of such services were based on Amazon Cloud. So, at the evening RKN (aka Roskonadzor, advisory of telecom) started to add IPv4 networks in Russian blocklist (= blackhole). Example of networks that were added to Russian blocklist/blackhole Amazone <ipSubnet ts="2018-04-16T17:35:00+03:00">52.58.0.0/15</ipSubnet> <ipSubnet ts="2018-04-16T17:47:00+03:00">18.196.0.0/15</ipSubnet> <ipSubnet ts="2018-04-16T17:47:00+03:00">18.194.0.0/15</ipSubnet> <ipSubnet ts="2018-04-16T19:57:00+03:00">18.184.0.0/15</ipSubnet> <ipSubnet ts="2018-04-16T17:47:00+03:00">35.156.0.0/14</ipSubnet> GOOGLE CLOUD <ipSubnet ts="2018-04-16T20:21:00+03:00">35.192.0.0/12</ipSubnet> A lot of businesses were affected even some bank companies, processing and others who where using Amazon services. Amount of small companies affected is very large. Big companies? Apple services were affected too as I found. A lot of application use Amazon cloud. Just for info. Some time ago Russian gov wanted to integrate blackhole based on BGP (and that's bring up the question about whole internet stability). Because they break local internet time to time. You can track amount of IPs in blocklist monitoring at https://2018.schors.spb.ru/ A lot of news web sites write about this situation. Сonclusion. I don't find this situation suitable for any country. I know and fully understand that it's not easy to find consensus in discussions of such things. But I wish and I want community think about such issues. They should not happen in any country. We are as RIPE community are responsible for Internet stability and safety and making this Internet better. I want RIPE community offer how we should protect normal internet users of all countries from unintelligent, irrational and very bad behavior of local authorities. I think it's not good idea to assign any IPs for such authorities. Consensus should be found. -- Juri NTX Hosting

7 7

Russian government blocked 18mln IPs at 20/04/2018
by Juri 23 Apr '18

23 Apr '18

Hello everybody, Short update. Russian authorities block about 18.858 mln IPv4 right now trying to get Telegram messenger down with no success. Life statistics and graphs https://usher2.club/en/ A lot of services where affected. RKN added to block list big IPs block of Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Digital Ocean, Aruba, OVH, Hezner. They started to block popular Europe datacenters. Such things should never happen, Internet should be protected from such issues. Just examples (information from https://t.me/rknshowtime) Blocked subnets: 35.176.0.0/15 - Amazon Data Services UK 51.15.0.0/16 - ONLINE_NET_DEDICATED_SERVERS_NL 18.204.0.0/14 - Amazon Technologies Inc. 91.121.0.0/16 - OVH SAS 46.101.128.0/17 - Digital Ocean, Inc. 185.166.212.0/23 - Clouding.io Virtual Machine Hosting 178.63.0.0/16 - Hetzner Online GmbH 51.136.0.0/15 - Microsoft Limited UK 18.218.0.0/16 - Amazon Technologies Inc. 18.236.0.0/15 - Amazon.com, Inc. 54.64.0.0/13 - Amazon Technologies Inc. 23.251.128.0/19 - Google LLC 174.138.0.0/17 - DigitalOcean, LLC 188.166.0.0/17 - Digital Ocean, Inc. 159.203.0.0/16 - DigitalOcean, LLC 128.199.0.0/16 - DigitalOcean Cloud 159.65.0.0/16 - DigitalOcean, LLC Any blacklisting buy networks is a bad idea. -- Juri +7 (499) 346-76-29

3 2

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
by Aleksey Bulgakov 17 Apr '18

17 Apr '18

<david.ponzone(a)ipeva.fr>: > AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's > less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. > And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less > than 2500€ of net income per staff. > > I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000€ > So, we can move the RIPE office to another country, with less salary numbers. E.g. there are the salary numbers approximately 1500€ in Russia, including tax 13%. With social tax 30% the salary numbers are 2000€ in Moscow. What do you think about it? Me and my colleagues, who wrote here earlier, are ready to help the community with relocation.

16 19

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
by Sergey Myasoedov 14 Apr '18

14 Apr '18

Dear Axel, Thank you for publishing the reports. It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. Can this amount be explained? -- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM: > Dear RIPE NCC members, > The following important documents are now online: > - RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 > - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 > - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 > All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting > (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to > approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM. > The full list of supporting documents is available at: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-d… > If you have any feedback, please email <agm(a)ripe.net>. > We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on > these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will > take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those > who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille. > We previously announced that publication of these documents would take > place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay. > All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to > register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/ > Best regards, > Axel Pawlik > Managing Director > RIPE NCC -- Kind regards, Sergey Myasoedov

35 56

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
by "R. Engür Pişirici" 13 Apr '18

13 Apr '18

and... please stop acting like a child... it can be easily related person/ip addr. so, stop pretending someone else and stop trying to unsubscribe mailing list with fake information. as we all know that, this behaviour violates ripeNcc rules and it is against laws. Best Regards, -engur > On 13 Apr 2018, at 17:09, Ercan Ermis <ercan(a)vargonen.com> wrote: > > Hello All, > > These emails are started to annoying but it is okay. Here is the tip for this endless conversation; if you like to read all things create a rule for your Inbox health and move the email automatically. If you do not give a fuck just create a rule for auto deletion. > > And please stop the talking political science because you are not a politician. Who want to war on thıs lovely planet? We have to work for a better internet and services, that’s it. > > Greetings from Turkey. > Ercan Ermiş > [root@vargonen ~]# > Linux System Administrator > Vargonen Teknoloji ve Bilişim Sanayi Ticaret A.Ş. > Ankara Caddesi No:81 | Bayraklı Tower Kat :19 |Bayraklı | Izmir > ercan(a)vargonen.com | +90 850 660 00 99 > > From: members-discuss [mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Bunea TELECOM > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 1:02 PM > To: Engür Rıza Pişirici <engur(a)bilkent.edu.tr> > Cc: members-discuss(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 > > Oh, I’m sorry, but this discussion is really out of hand. Are you talking about moving RIPE offices because of lower costs in certain parts of the world ? I think this is insane to even bring to subject such matters. > Ripe is based in Netherlands, one of the best and most respected countries on Earth, and it should remain there. Proposing to move RIPE or even propose for RIPE to open offices in parts of the world that are politically, military and economically unstable (like Turkey or Russia) is simply BS. > Even in my country, with a socialist Government we have political and economical uncertainties just about every other week. > > To be honest, the only place I would RIPE to open offices any time soon is in London, which is one of the financial and IT capitals of the EU (so far). The entire world really needs to be focused on the West in every aspect possible, rather than heading East. > > Sincerely, > — > > > <image001.jpg> > > > > > Petru Bunea / CEO > suport(a)bunea.eu / +40752481282 > Bunea TELECOM / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT > http://www.bunea.eu / +40745495495 > > > On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:23, Engür Rıza Pişirici <engur(a)bilkent.edu.tr> wrote: > > Hello All, > > Istanbul might be good idea if RIPE NCC really want to move some parts of their office to Eastern Europe. > > Best Regards, > > -engur > tr.bilkent > > > On 12 Apr 2018, at 22:35, Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > So what do you think about moving a part of the office of the RIPE to Eastern Europe (registration services, customer services, technicians), and leaving the management in the Netherlands? This will reduce spending for electricity, wages, taxes, and, consequently, membership fees. > > чт, 12 Апр 2018 г., 21:41 Gert Doering <gert(a)space.net>: > Hi, > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 01:09:47PM +0300, Juri wrote: > > Gerg, please don't move away point of main question. > > All those things should be discussed separately. > > As people join the NCC *only* because it's cheaper to get an IPv4 /22 > that way, and not for any other reason (like, IPv6, or voting rights, > or "because they want to be part of the Internet community") - as long > as this is (quite visibly) happening, you cannot separate resource > consumption from fee structure. > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmai… > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/engur%40bilkent.edu.… > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss(a)ripe.net > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu >

1 0

Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019
by David Ponzone 13 Apr '18

13 Apr '18

Sorry, my mistake, 3125€ per month per staff (4000/1,28). The net income remains around 2500€. David Ponzone Direction Technique email: david.ponzone(a)ipeva.fr tel: 01 74 03 18 97 gsm: 06 66 98 76 34 Service Client IPeva tel: 0811 46 26 26 www.ipeva.fr - www.ipeva-studio.com Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur. Le 12 avr. 2018 à 14:55, David Ponzone a écrit : > AFAIK, social charges paid by the employer in NL are around 28%, so it's less than 3000 euros per month per staff member of income. > And that's before social charges paid by the employee (18%), so it's less than 2500€ of net income per staff. > > I would not judge if that's high or low in NL, but that's not 4000. > > David Ponzone Direction Technique > email: david.ponzone(a)ipeva.fr > tel: 01 74 03 18 97 > gsm: 06 66 98 76 34 > > Service Client IPeva > tel: 0811 46 26 26 > www.ipeva.fr - www.ipeva-studio.com > > Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. IPeva décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. Si vous n'êtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire immédiatement et d'avertir l'expéditeur. > > > > Le 12 avr. 2018 à 12:01, Hans Govenius a écrit : > >> Hello >> >> There is 153 staff memebers at RIPE and having OPEX of 7,5 meur in Internals means over 4000 euros per month per one staff member. That is indeed quite high for a non-profit organization and therefore it would not be bad for transparency to open up atleast the biggest individual items. With current information it is not possible for paying members to sufficiently control and oversee the expenses generated by operations. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Hans Govenius >> >> >> Lähettäjä: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces(a)ripe.net> Puolesta Aleksey Bulgakov >> Lähetetty: keskiviikko 11. huhtikuuta 2018 18.52 >> Kopio: members-discuss(a)ripe.net; agm(a)ripe.net >> Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 and Proposed RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 >> >> Dear, Axel. >> >> Thank you for your report. >> >> But I cannot understand some things. The number of members increases every year, but the annual payment isn't changed. The NCC is noncommercial organisation, but the payment for new members is 2000 euro for registration. Is it so hard to print papers and send them by DHL and is it necessary to make the membership so expensive? >> >> ср, 11 Апр 2018 г., 18:11 Sergey Myasoedov <kaa(a)net-art.cz>: >> Dear Axel, >> >> Thank you for publishing the reports. >> >> It's very nice to put 7.5 MEur of opex as 'Internal' as mentioned on >> the page 7 of the Annual Report, but this amount is 1/3 of total opex. >> Can this amount be explained? >> >> >> -- >> Kind regards, >> Sergey Myasoedov >> >> >> >> You wrote Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 4:08:43 PM: >> >> > Dear RIPE NCC members, >> >> > The following important documents are now online: >> >> > - RIPE NCC Annual Report 2017 >> > - RIPE NCC Financial Report 2017 >> > - RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2019 >> >> > All three are supporting documents for the RIPE NCC General Meeting >> > (GM), which takes place from 16-18 May 2018. Members will vote to >> > approve the Financial Report and the Charging Scheme at the GM. >> >> > The full list of supporting documents is available at: >> > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/supporting-d… >> >> > If you have any feedback, please email <agm(a)ripe.net>. >> >> > We ask all RIPE NCC members to register for the GM so they can vote on >> > these documents, as well as in the Executive Board elections that will >> > take place at the GM. Full remote participation is possible for those >> > who cannot attend the meeting in Marseille. >> >> > We previously announced that publication of these documents would take >> > place on 4 April. We apologise for the delay. >> >> > All information on the GM, including the draft agenda and how to >> > register to participate remotely, is included on the GM homepage: >> > https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2018/ >> >> > Best regards, >> >> > Axel Pawlik >> > Managing Director >> > RIPE NCC >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Kind regards, >> Sergey Myasoedov >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleksbulgakov%40gmai… >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss(a)ripe.net >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/david.ponzone%40ipev… >

4 4