Re: [ncc-announce] [news] 177th RIPE NCC Executive Board Meeting - Summary Notes
Hi, Thanks for the meeting minutes, they’re always interesting to read. I’ve been wondering about the redistribution for years, but I guess never really voiced my thoughts about them. Referring to items and discussion under section 3 and section 6, why do we nowadays (and seemingly want to continue to) redistribute part of the precious year’s membership fee back to members? As a transaction it’s like lending money at zero interest and then possibly (optionality) having the excess, which wasn’t used for operations, netted against the membership fee the following year. Should there be an excess and should the GM vote in favor of it, I mean. I realize an extra-extra buffer improves working capital but to me it would seem like RIPE has ample amounts of cash at hand as well as in reserves so that seems like an unlikely reason. Kaj Sent from my iPad ________________________________ From: Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce@ripe.net> Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2024 2:52:22 PM To: ncc-announce@ripe.net <ncc-announce@ripe.net> Subject: [ncc-announce] [news] 177th RIPE NCC Executive Board Meeting - Summary Notes Dear RIPE NCC members, The RIPE NCC Executive Board held its 177th meeting from 18 - 20 September 2024. The minutes are now available: https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2024/177th-executive-b... The Executive Board publishes the minutes of its meetings so that the workings of the Board and the decisions it makes are transparent to the membership it represents. The following is a summary of the main items from the meeting. Further details are available in the minutes. ------------------------------- Main Items ------------------------------- - I presented the Draft Activity Plan and Budget for 2025, outlining costs, key strategic areas and a request for additional budget in Information Security and Technology as an investment in the organisation's future stability. - Each main section of the Draft Activity Plan and Budget (Registry, Information Services, Community and Engagement, and Organisational Sustainability) was presented by the relevant owner who shared the current status, risks and plans for 2025. Chief Information Security Officer Eleonora Petridou also presented the Information Security, Risk & Compliance section. - Chief Community Officer, Hisham Ibrahim, provided a Q3 2024 update on Community and Engagement, including a successful summer school campaign, community engagement efforts, translated YouTube training materials, along with a joint RIPE-RIPE NCC presentation to encourage participation. - Chief Technology Officer, Felipe Victolla Silveira, provided a status update where he covered the modernisation of RIPE Atlas infrastructure and the reduction of data centre costs and issues that have been experienced related to that. - Chief Financial Officer, Simon-Jan Haytink, provided a financial status update and presented budget proposals for 2025. - Chief Legal Officer, Athina Fragkouli, gave a presentation on the work to update “Criteria for Establishment of New Regional Internet Registries” (ICP-2). She outlined the plan and said that the ASO AC (NRO NC) is carrying out work to review the ICP-2 document. - Athina also presented the amendments made to the closure procedure and the legacy services legal framework, as well as amendments to the transfer procedure and revised transfer requirements for Ukraine. - RIPE Chair Mirjam Kühne provided an update on RIPE community developments, including planning for RIPE 89. She gave an update on RIPE Working Groups, strengthening relationships with LEAs and Europol, and RIPE outreach activities. - Jan Žorž was appointed by the Executive Board Chair to lead the RIPE Nominations Committee as it worked to appoint the next RIPE Chair. The Board fully supported this appointment and expressed its good wishes to Jan. Other topics: - GM Agenda - Staff Pulse Check survey - Executive Board Travel Policy Update - Charging Scheme Task Force - Aligning RIPE NCC's Strategic Objectives with Funding - Harnessing Community Power - AFRINIC - Meeting with the Works Council - Board Remuneration ------------------------------- Resolutions Adopted ------------------------------- Resolution EB#177-R-01 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the minutes of EB#176. Resolution EB#177-R-02 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the publication of the Draft RIPE NCC Activity Plan and Budget 2025 as amended. Resolution EB#177-R-03 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the publication of the draft agenda for the RIPE NCC General Meeting in October 2024 as amended. Resolution EB#177-R-04 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the amendments to the RIPE NCC procedural document “Closure of Members, Deregistration of Internet Resources and Legacy Internet Resources” as well as to the RIPE NCC legal documents “RIPE NCC Services for Legacy Internet Resources of RIPE NCC Members Terms and Conditions” and “RIPE NCC Services for Legacy Internet Resources Agreement (Legacy Agreement)”. Resolution EB#177-R-05 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the amendments to the RIPE NCC procedural document “Transfer of Internet Number Resources and Change of a Member’s Official Legal Name”. Resolution EB#177-R-06 The RIPE NCC Executive Board resolves to lift the restriction imposed by the resolution EB#163-R-02, according to which all transfer requests from Ukraine would be only permitted if accompanied by notarised supporting documents. As a result, notarisation of documents will only be required in accordance with the RIPE NCC procedural document “Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE NCC Registration Data”. Kind regards, Hans Petter Holen Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer RIPE NCC
** *Dear Kaj,* * I will just repeat your question so you can correct me if my interpretation is incorrect.Why do we redistribute any excess membership funds back to the members, and why do we want to continue this? In the 2014 financial year and the years before that, the RIPE NCC had the luxury of being able to add any excess membership funds to our clearing house reserves free of any taxes. This allowed the RIPE NCC to build up a reserve over the years, which provided a financial buffer that ensured stability for the RIPE NCC and its services. In a worst case scenario, with the help of the reserves, we can continue to provide services while working on a solution. For the 2015 financial year, the Dutch tax authority did not want to extend the agreement we had. So the agreement was re-negotiated, and since 2015 our agreement with the dutch tax authority is:- The RIPE NCC is allowed to redistribute any excess contributions to its members without paying any taxes on the excess - this aligns with the RIPE NCC not-for-profit requirement- If the RIPE NCC would add the excess contribution funds to its reserves, this would be taxed as income (2024 tax rate 19% on the first 200K & 25.8% on everything over 200K)- Any return on the RIPE NCC reserves is free of corporate income tax So this means, as the RIPE NCC, we are allowed to redistribute any excess funds free of tax to our members - since 2015 we redistributed over 60 million EUR. Without this agreement we would have had to pay +-25% tax, so 15 million EUR to the Dutch tax authority, and we would only be able to redistribute 45 million EUR. Or we could have paid 15 million EUR in taxes and added 45 million to our reserves. In my opinion, the set-up we have with an audited financial report and the GM voting on a redistribution is the correct one for a membership association - the members should be in control of what to do with any excess funds. It also allows us to add to our reserves, but not without paying taxes on this. And the agreement allows us to increase our reserve tax free - our treasury project is starting to provide some real returns with the latest forecast for 2024 being 750kEUR. Our intent with the 2025 Charging Scheme is not to improve working capital, as the cost budget is what limits the RIPE NCC's spending. So assuming the draft budget is approved, our spending limit is then 40 million EUR. Our intent is to ensure stability to at least 2026, and we have the luxury of the redistribution mechanism in combination with the tax agreement so we can return any excess funds to our members, and with that realise our not-for-profit aim and operate on a cost recovery basis. I also want to point out that the same mechanism that allows us to redistribute excess contributions to the members also allows us to redistribute a deficit to the members. The Board decided this year to have a resolution that would allow the excess to be returned to the members in 2025, but should there be a deficit, then this would be covered by the reserves. This puts the reserves to good use and ensures that, if they vote for it, the members cannot be charged more than their regular fees in 2025. Again, whether it’s a surplus or a deficit, the members will vote on what happens to it. We do encourage you to make sure you register for the GM and cast your vote. https://www.ripe.net/membership/gm/meetings/october-2024/ <https://www.ripe.net/membership/gm/meetings/october-2024/> Apologies for the long answer, but I wanted to be complete. *Kind regards Simon CFO RIPE NCC On 16/10/2024 16:55, Kaj Niemi wrote:
Hi,
Thanks for the meeting minutes, they’re always interesting to read.
I’ve been wondering about the redistribution for years, but I guess never really voiced my thoughts about them.
Referring to items and discussion under section 3 and section 6, why do we nowadays (and seemingly want to continue to) redistribute part of the precious year’s membership fee back to members? As a transaction it’s like lending money at zero interest and then possibly (optionality) having the excess, which wasn’t used for operations, netted against the membership fee the following year. Should there be an excess and should the GM vote in favor of it, I mean.
I realize an extra-extra buffer improves working capital but to me it would seem like RIPE has ample amounts of cash at hand as well as in reserves so that seems like an unlikely reason.
Kaj
Sent from my iPad
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce@ripe.net> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 16, 2024 2:52:22 PM *To:* ncc-announce@ripe.net <ncc-announce@ripe.net> *Subject:* [ncc-announce] [news] 177th RIPE NCC Executive Board Meeting - Summary Notes Dear RIPE NCC members,
The RIPE NCC Executive Board held its 177th meeting from 18 - 20 September 2024. The minutes are now available: https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2024/177th-executive-b...
The Executive Board publishes the minutes of its meetings so that the workings of the Board and the decisions it makes are transparent to the membership it represents. The following is a summary of the main items from the meeting. Further details are available in the minutes.
------------------------------- Main Items -------------------------------
- I presented the Draft Activity Plan and Budget for 2025, outlining costs, key strategic areas and a request for additional budget in Information Security and Technology as an investment in the organisation's future stability.
- Each main section of the Draft Activity Plan and Budget (Registry, Information Services, Community and Engagement, and Organisational Sustainability) was presented by the relevant owner who shared the current status, risks and plans for 2025. Chief Information Security Officer Eleonora Petridou also presented the Information Security, Risk & Compliance section.
- Chief Community Officer, Hisham Ibrahim, provided a Q3 2024 update on Community and Engagement, including a successful summer school campaign, community engagement efforts, translated YouTube training materials, along with a joint RIPE-RIPE NCC presentation to encourage participation.
- Chief Technology Officer, Felipe Victolla Silveira, provided a status update where he covered the modernisation of RIPE Atlas infrastructure and the reduction of data centre costs and issues that have been experienced related to that.
- Chief Financial Officer, Simon-Jan Haytink, provided a financial status update and presented budget proposals for 2025.
- Chief Legal Officer, Athina Fragkouli, gave a presentation on the work to update “Criteria for Establishment of New Regional Internet Registries” (ICP-2). She outlined the plan and said that the ASO AC (NRO NC) is carrying out work to review the ICP-2 document.
- Athina also presented the amendments made to the closure procedure and the legacy services legal framework, as well as amendments to the transfer procedure and revised transfer requirements for Ukraine.
- RIPE Chair Mirjam Kühne provided an update on RIPE community developments, including planning for RIPE 89. She gave an update on RIPE Working Groups, strengthening relationships with LEAs and Europol, and RIPE outreach activities.
- Jan Žorž was appointed by the Executive Board Chair to lead the RIPE Nominations Committee as it worked to appoint the next RIPE Chair. The Board fully supported this appointment and expressed its good wishes to Jan.
Other topics: - GM Agenda - Staff Pulse Check survey - Executive Board Travel Policy Update - Charging Scheme Task Force - Aligning RIPE NCC's Strategic Objectives with Funding - Harnessing Community Power - AFRINIC - Meeting with the Works Council - Board Remuneration
------------------------------- Resolutions Adopted ------------------------------- Resolution EB#177-R-01 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the minutes of EB#176.
Resolution EB#177-R-02 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the publication of the Draft RIPE NCC Activity Plan and Budget 2025 as amended.
Resolution EB#177-R-03 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the publication of the draft agenda for the RIPE NCC General Meeting in October 2024 as amended.
Resolution EB#177-R-04 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the amendments to the RIPE NCC procedural document “Closure of Members, Deregistration of Internet Resources and Legacy Internet Resources” as well as to the RIPE NCC legal documents “RIPE NCC Services for Legacy Internet Resources of RIPE NCC Members Terms and Conditions” and “RIPE NCC Services for Legacy Internet Resources Agreement (Legacy Agreement)”.
Resolution EB#177-R-05 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the amendments to the RIPE NCC procedural document “Transfer of Internet Number Resources and Change of a Member’s Official Legal Name”.
Resolution EB#177-R-06 The RIPE NCC Executive Board resolves to lift the restriction imposed by the resolution EB#163-R-02, according to which all transfer requests from Ukraine would be only permitted if accompanied by notarised supporting documents. As a result, notarisation of documents will only be required in accordance with the RIPE NCC procedural document “Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE NCC Registration Data”.
Kind regards,
Hans Petter Holen Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer RIPE NCC
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Hi, Yes, you understood my question and context correctly and I do appreciate the detailed answer. I am all in favor of optimizing CIT in general. ?? Have a nice weekend. Kaj ________________________________ From: Simon-Jan Haytink <simonjh@ripe.net> Sent: Friday, October 18, 2024 15:11 To: members-discuss@ripe.net <members-discuss@ripe.net> Subject: [members-discuss] Re: [ncc-announce] [news] 177th RIPE NCC Executive Board Meeting - Summary Notes Dear Kaj, I will just repeat your question so you can correct me if my interpretation is incorrect. Why do we redistribute any excess membership funds back to the members, and why do we want to continue this? In the 2014 financial year and the years before that, the RIPE NCC had the luxury of being able to add any excess membership funds to our clearing house reserves free of any taxes. This allowed the RIPE NCC to build up a reserve over the years, which provided a financial buffer that ensured stability for the RIPE NCC and its services. In a worst case scenario, with the help of the reserves, we can continue to provide services while working on a solution. For the 2015 financial year, the Dutch tax authority did not want to extend the agreement we had. So the agreement was re-negotiated, and since 2015 our agreement with the dutch tax authority is: - The RIPE NCC is allowed to redistribute any excess contributions to its members without paying any taxes on the excess - this aligns with the RIPE NCC not-for-profit requirement - If the RIPE NCC would add the excess contribution funds to its reserves, this would be taxed as income (2024 tax rate 19% on the first 200K & 25.8% on everything over 200K) - Any return on the RIPE NCC reserves is free of corporate income tax So this means, as the RIPE NCC, we are allowed to redistribute any excess funds free of tax to our members - since 2015 we redistributed over 60 million EUR. Without this agreement we would have had to pay +-25% tax, so 15 million EUR to the Dutch tax authority, and we would only be able to redistribute 45 million EUR. Or we could have paid 15 million EUR in taxes and added 45 million to our reserves. In my opinion, the set-up we have with an audited financial report and the GM voting on a redistribution is the correct one for a membership association - the members should be in control of what to do with any excess funds. It also allows us to add to our reserves, but not without paying taxes on this. And the agreement allows us to increase our reserve tax free - our treasury project is starting to provide some real returns with the latest forecast for 2024 being 750kEUR. Our intent with the 2025 Charging Scheme is not to improve working capital, as the cost budget is what limits the RIPE NCC's spending. So assuming the draft budget is approved, our spending limit is then 40 million EUR. Our intent is to ensure stability to at least 2026, and we have the luxury of the redistribution mechanism in combination with the tax agreement so we can return any excess funds to our members, and with that realise our not-for-profit aim and operate on a cost recovery basis. I also want to point out that the same mechanism that allows us to redistribute excess contributions to the members also allows us to redistribute a deficit to the members. The Board decided this year to have a resolution that would allow the excess to be returned to the members in 2025, but should there be a deficit, then this would be covered by the reserves. This puts the reserves to good use and ensures that, if they vote for it, the members cannot be charged more than their regular fees in 2025. Again, whether it’s a surplus or a deficit, the members will vote on what happens to it. We do encourage you to make sure you register for the GM and cast your vote. https://www.ripe.net/membership/gm/meetings/october-2024/ Apologies for the long answer, but I wanted to be complete. Kind regards Simon CFO RIPE NCC On 16/10/2024 16:55, Kaj Niemi wrote: Hi, Thanks for the meeting minutes, they’re always interesting to read. I’ve been wondering about the redistribution for years, but I guess never really voiced my thoughts about them. Referring to items and discussion under section 3 and section 6, why do we nowadays (and seemingly want to continue to) redistribute part of the precious year’s membership fee back to members? As a transaction it’s like lending money at zero interest and then possibly (optionality) having the excess, which wasn’t used for operations, netted against the membership fee the following year. Should there be an excess and should the GM vote in favor of it, I mean. I realize an extra-extra buffer improves working capital but to me it would seem like RIPE has ample amounts of cash at hand as well as in reserves so that seems like an unlikely reason. Kaj Sent from my iPad ________________________________ From: Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce@ripe.net><mailto:hph+announce@ripe.net> Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2024 2:52:22 PM To: ncc-announce@ripe.net<mailto:ncc-announce@ripe.net> <ncc-announce@ripe.net><mailto:ncc-announce@ripe.net> Subject: [ncc-announce] [news] 177th RIPE NCC Executive Board Meeting - Summary Notes Dear RIPE NCC members, The RIPE NCC Executive Board held its 177th meeting from 18 - 20 September 2024. The minutes are now available: https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2024/177th-executive-b... The Executive Board publishes the minutes of its meetings so that the workings of the Board and the decisions it makes are transparent to the membership it represents. The following is a summary of the main items from the meeting. Further details are available in the minutes. ------------------------------- Main Items ------------------------------- - I presented the Draft Activity Plan and Budget for 2025, outlining costs, key strategic areas and a request for additional budget in Information Security and Technology as an investment in the organisation's future stability. - Each main section of the Draft Activity Plan and Budget (Registry, Information Services, Community and Engagement, and Organisational Sustainability) was presented by the relevant owner who shared the current status, risks and plans for 2025. Chief Information Security Officer Eleonora Petridou also presented the Information Security, Risk & Compliance section. - Chief Community Officer, Hisham Ibrahim, provided a Q3 2024 update on Community and Engagement, including a successful summer school campaign, community engagement efforts, translated YouTube training materials, along with a joint RIPE-RIPE NCC presentation to encourage participation. - Chief Technology Officer, Felipe Victolla Silveira, provided a status update where he covered the modernisation of RIPE Atlas infrastructure and the reduction of data centre costs and issues that have been experienced related to that. - Chief Financial Officer, Simon-Jan Haytink, provided a financial status update and presented budget proposals for 2025. - Chief Legal Officer, Athina Fragkouli, gave a presentation on the work to update “Criteria for Establishment of New Regional Internet Registries” (ICP-2). She outlined the plan and said that the ASO AC (NRO NC) is carrying out work to review the ICP-2 document. - Athina also presented the amendments made to the closure procedure and the legacy services legal framework, as well as amendments to the transfer procedure and revised transfer requirements for Ukraine. - RIPE Chair Mirjam Kühne provided an update on RIPE community developments, including planning for RIPE 89. She gave an update on RIPE Working Groups, strengthening relationships with LEAs and Europol, and RIPE outreach activities. - Jan Žorž was appointed by the Executive Board Chair to lead the RIPE Nominations Committee as it worked to appoint the next RIPE Chair. The Board fully supported this appointment and expressed its good wishes to Jan. Other topics: - GM Agenda - Staff Pulse Check survey - Executive Board Travel Policy Update - Charging Scheme Task Force - Aligning RIPE NCC's Strategic Objectives with Funding - Harnessing Community Power - AFRINIC - Meeting with the Works Council - Board Remuneration ------------------------------- Resolutions Adopted ------------------------------- Resolution EB#177-R-01 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the minutes of EB#176. Resolution EB#177-R-02 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the publication of the Draft RIPE NCC Activity Plan and Budget 2025 as amended. Resolution EB#177-R-03 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the publication of the draft agenda for the RIPE NCC General Meeting in October 2024 as amended. Resolution EB#177-R-04 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the amendments to the RIPE NCC procedural document “Closure of Members, Deregistration of Internet Resources and Legacy Internet Resources” as well as to the RIPE NCC legal documents “RIPE NCC Services for Legacy Internet Resources of RIPE NCC Members Terms and Conditions” and “RIPE NCC Services for Legacy Internet Resources Agreement (Legacy Agreement)”. Resolution EB#177-R-05 The RIPE NCC Executive Board approves the amendments to the RIPE NCC procedural document “Transfer of Internet Number Resources and Change of a Member’s Official Legal Name”. Resolution EB#177-R-06 The RIPE NCC Executive Board resolves to lift the restriction imposed by the resolution EB#163-R-02, according to which all transfer requests from Ukraine would be only permitted if accompanied by notarised supporting documents. As a result, notarisation of documents will only be required in accordance with the RIPE NCC procedural document “Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE NCC Registration Data”. Kind regards, Hans Petter Holen Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer RIPE NCC ----- To unsubscribe from this mailing list or change your subscription options, please visit: https://mailman.ripe.net/mailman3/lists/members-discuss.ripe.net/ As we have migrated to Mailman 3, you will need to create an account with the email matching your subscription before you can change your settings. More details at: https://www.ripe.net/membership/mail/mailman-3-migration/
Hi Kaj,
Yes, you understood my question and context correctly and I do appreciate the detailed answer. I am all in favor of optimizing CIT in general. ��
To add to Simon-Jan’s response: the charging scheme and budgets are based on predictions and estimates. The exact amount that the RIPE NCC receives depends on things like the number of members (new and old), the number of independent resources etc. And of course costs can't be predicted 100% either. From what I have seen the RIPE NCC staff does an outstanding job of staying within budget, but things happen and do change during the year. So it is almost impossible to have an exact 100% match between income and expenses. And the different can be redistributed amongst the members (either surplus or deficit). It is so much nicer to err on the side of caution and be able to give some surplus back at the end of the year :) Cheers, Sander
participants (3)
-
Kaj Niemi -
Sander Steffann -
Simon-Jan Haytink