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Re: [mat-wg] [ippm] [Rpm] [M-Lab-Discuss] misery metrics & consequences
by J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin 25 Oct '22

25 Oct '22

Dear all, After some time in silence on the IPPM list, I like to make some comments here. As we presented in the draft-ietf-ippm-route-00 (now the RFC9198), the main problem is the traffic follows heavy-tailed distributions when it is seen from the end-to-end points: the origin of most of the issues in that video. Therefore, treating it as parametric distribution is not possible, unless you are dealing with a complex distribution like the Stable distribution: • B. Mandelbrot, “New methods in statistical economics,” Journal of political economy, vol. 71, no. 5, pp. 421–440, 1963. • ——, “The variation of certain speculative prices,” The journal of business, vol. 36, no. 4, pp. 394–419, 1963. (and so it will be extremely complex a high computing demands.) This is why we propose to use quartiles to characterize delays in the RFC9198. Then, I am doing some research to understand how the delay can change with network load, using the quartiles. You can see some measurements done during the pandemic, showing the congestion as a function of the time (24 hours maximum): https://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/RIPE-Atlas-measurement-24681… [you can zoom in and out, pan it, clicking on the Xs you can close dialogs, to reopen them click on the link] Best, Ignacio ___________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ Dr. Ing. José Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin CONICET and Facultad de Ingeniería, Universidad de Buenos Aires Av. Paseo Colón 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina +54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705 e-mail: ihameli(a)cnet.fi.uba.ar web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/ _______________________________________________________________ > On 23 Oct 2022, at 08:57, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0(a)gmx.de> wrote: > > Hi Glenn, > > >> On Oct 23, 2022, at 02:17, Glenn Fishbine via Rpm <rpm(a)lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >> As a classic died in the wool empiricist, granted that you can identify "misery" factors, given a population of 1,000 users, how do you propose deriving a misery index for that population? >> >> We can measure download, upload, ping, jitter pretty much without user intervention. For the measurements you hypothesize, how you you automatically extract those indecies without subjective user contamination. >> >> I.e. my download speed sucks. Measure the download speed. >> >> My isp doesn't fix my problem. Measure what? How? >> >> Human survey technology is 70+ years old and it still has problems figuring out how to correlate opinion with fact. >> >> Without an objective measurement scheme that doesn't require human interaction, the misery index is a cool hypothesis with no way to link to actual data. What objective measurements can be made? Answer that and the index becomes useful. Otherwise it's just consumer whining. >> >> Not trying to be combative here, in fact I like the concept you support, but I'm hard pressed to see how the concept can lead to data, and the data lead to policy proposals. > > [SM] So it seems that outside of seemingly simple to test throughput numbers*, the next most important quality number (or the most important depending on subjective ranking) is how does latency change under "load". Absolute latency is also important albeit static high latency can be worked around within limits so the change under load seems more relevant. > All of flent's RRUL test, apple's networkQuality/RPM, and iperf2's bounceback test offer methods to asses latency change under load**, as do waveforms bufferbloat tests and even to a degree Ookla's speedtest.net. IMHO something like latency increase under load or apple's responsiveness measure RPM (basically the inverse of the latency under load calculated on a per minute basis, so it scales in the typical higher numbers are better way, unlike raw latency under load numbers where smaller is better). > IMHO what networkQuality is missing ATM is to measure and report the unloaded RPM as well as the loaded the first gives a measure over the static latency the second over how well things keep working if capacity gets tight. They report the base RTT which can be converted to RPM. As an example: > > macbook:~ user$ networkQuality -v > ==== SUMMARY ==== > Upload capacity: 24.341 Mbps > Download capacity: 91.951 Mbps > Upload flows: 20 > Download flows: 16 > Responsiveness: High (2123 RPM) > Base RTT: 16 > Start: 10/23/22, 13:44:39 > End: 10/23/22, 13:44:53 > OS Version: Version 12.6 (Build 21G115) > > Here RPM 2133 corresponds to 60000/2123 = 28.26 ms latency under load, while the Base RTT of 16ms corresponds to 60000/16 = 3750 RPM, son on this link load reduces the responsiveness by 3750-2123 = 1627 RPM a reduction by 100-100*2123/3750 = 43.4%, and that is with competent AQM and scheduling on the router. > > Without competent AQM/shaping I get: > ==== SUMMARY ==== > Upload capacity: 15.101 Mbps > Download capacity: 97.664 Mbps > Upload flows: 20 > Download flows: 12 > Responsiveness: Medium (427 RPM) > Base RTT: 16 > Start: 10/23/22, 13:51:50 > End: 10/23/22, 13:52:06 > OS Version: Version 12.6 (Build 21G115) > latency under load: 60000/427 = 140.52 ms > base RPM: 60000/16 = 3750 RPM > reduction RPM: 100-100*427/3750 = 88.6% > > > I understand apple's desire to have a single reported number with a single qualifier medium/high/... because in the end a link is only reliably usable if responsiveness under load stays acceptable, but with two numbers it is easier to see what one's ISP could do to help. (I guess some ISPs might already be unhappy with the single number, so this needs some diplomacy/tact) > > Regards > Sebastian > > > > *) Seemingly as quite some ISPs operate their own speedtest servers in their network and ignore customers not reaching the contracted rates into speedtest-servers located in different ASs. As the product is called internet access I a inclined to expect that my ISP maintains sufficient peering/transit capacity to reach the next tier of AS at my contracted rate (the EU legislative seems to agree, see EU directive 2015/2120). > > **) Most do by creating load themselves and measuring throughput at the same time, bounceback IIUC will focus on the latency measurement and leave the load generation optional (so offers a mode to measure responsiveness of a live network with minimal measurement traffic). @Bob, please correct me if this is wrong. > > >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 21, 2022, 5:20 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> One of the best talks I've ever seen on how to measure customer >> satisfaction properly just went up after the P99 Conference. >> >> It's called Misery Metrics. >> >> After going through a deep dive as to why and how we think and act on >> percentiles, bins, and other statistical methods as to how we use the >> web and internet are *so wrong* (well worth watching and thinking >> about if you are relying on or creating network metrics today), it >> then points to the real metrics that matter to users and the ultimate >> success of an internet business: Timeouts, retries, misses, failed >> queries, angry phone calls, abandoned shopping carts and loss of >> engagement. >> >> https://www.p99conf.io/session/misery-metrics-consequences/ >> >> The ending advice was - don't aim to make a specific percentile >> acceptable, aim for an acceptable % of misery. >> >> I enjoyed the p99 conference more than any conference I've attended in years. >> >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656… >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "discuss" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to discuss+unsubscribe(a)measurementlab.net. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/measurementlab.net/d/msgid/discuss/CAA93jw4w27a…. >> _______________________________________________ >> Rpm mailing list >> Rpm(a)lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm(a)ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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misery metrics & consequences
by Dave Taht 22 Oct '22

22 Oct '22

One of the best talks I've ever seen on how to measure customer satisfaction properly just went up after the P99 Conference. It's called Misery Metrics. After going through a deep dive as to why and how we think and act on percentiles, bins, and other statistical methods as to how we use the web and internet are *so wrong* (well worth watching and thinking about if you are relying on or creating network metrics today), it then points to the real metrics that matter to users and the ultimate success of an internet business: Timeouts, retries, misses, failed queries, angry phone calls, abandoned shopping carts and loss of engagement. https://www.p99conf.io/session/misery-metrics-consequences/ The ending advice was - don't aim to make a specific percentile acceptable, aim for an acceptable % of misery. I enjoyed the p99 conference more than any conference I've attended in years. -- This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656… Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

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RIPE Atlas, RIPEstat and RIS Quarterly Planning Q4 2022
by Robert Kisteleki 27 Sep '22

27 Sep '22

Dear colleagues, We’ve now published our quarterly planning for RIPE Atlas, RIPEstat and RIS. These are available at: https://www.ripe.net/support/documentation/quarterly-planning The goal of our quarterly planning is to communicate the work we’re doing for the coming months, get your input and start a discussion on other developments we should work on. If you have any input on our plans or want to let us know what you would like to see us work on, please let us know. Kind regards, Robert Kisteleki Research and Development Manager RIPE NCC

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Open House: Exploring RIPEstat
by Christian Teuschel 21 Sep '22

21 Sep '22

Dear colleagues, A quick note to remind you that the RIPE NCC Open House: Exploring RIPEstat is taking place on Wednesday, 28 September at 10:00 (UTC). During this online event, we will talk about what makes this tool a favourite for network operators, CERTs and a wide group of Internet stakeholders. I will be joined by guests who will speak in detail about RIPEstat datasets, a number of new features and the new UI. Check out the details and register for free at: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-ex… Best regards, Christian Teuschel

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Internet Measurement Day - Tomorrow, 13 September, Online
by Gergana Petrova 12 Sep '22

12 Sep '22

Dear colleagues, A quick note to remind you that the Internet Measurement Day Serbia is taking place tomorrow, 13 September, online. During this online event we will talk about tools on how to measure the Internet, such as RIPE Atlas, the Identifier Technology Health Indicators (ITHI Metrics), Routing Information System (RIS), Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI) and the RIPE NCC’s open data platform RIPEstat. You will also hear from a number of local and international organisations, such as RATEL, SOX, CAIDA and more. Even though the particular focus is on Serbia, a lot of the presentations would be general. Perhaps even the more local presentations would be relevant for those of you who are doing business in neighbouring countries. Check out the agenda and if interested, register for free here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/internet-measurement-day/internet… Best regards, Gergana -- Gergana Petrova Community Development Manager RIPE NCC

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Fwd: Join Virtual En-ROADS Climate Workshop on September 8!
by Vesna Manojlovic 07 Sep '22

07 Sep '22

Dear MAT-WG, here's an invitation to en_ROADS workshop: https://www.climateinteractive.org/get-involved/webinars/ This is a great showcase for the visualisation of complex & open data, measured over long time periods, analysed and fit into models that are predicting outcomes in the future. I find it highly relevant for the operations of Internet infrastructure, since it has elements of: - water availability https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/opinions/why-data-centers-need-to-tal… - sea-level rise https://labs.ripe.net/author/ggm/surviving-the-flood-how-data-centres-and-t… - energy consumption https://www.consultancy.uk/news/28772/10-ways-businesses-can-reduce-their-d… I hope you find it useful, regards, Vesna

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samknows reports 853 ms of latency under load for US DSL.
by Dave Taht 26 Aug '22

26 Aug '22

US DSL, according to their measurements, has 853 ms of latency under load, as reported to the FCC. pretty good podcast and blog at: https://samknows.com/blog/bufferbloat - where they also discuss their current and planned methods of measurement. Also, speedtest.net is finally reporting on "working latency", and their new speedtest apps showing it to the user. https://www.ookla.com/articles/introducing-loaded-latency It would be really great if y'all could join in on helping us finally solve the bufferbloat problem internet wide. -- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

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New on RIPE Labs: 240/4 As Seen by RIPE Atlas
by Qasim Lone 23 Aug '22

23 Aug '22

Dear colleagues, In this new article on RIPE Labs, we use data from RIPE Atlas probes to investigate the usage of 240/4, a block of IPv4 addresses 'reserved for future use' and formally known as Class E in the wild. https://labs.ripe.net/author/qasim-lone/2404-as-seen-by-ripe-atlas/ Kind regards, Qasim

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Call for presentations MAT WG at RIPE85
by Massimo Candela 15 Aug '22

15 Aug '22

Dear MAT WG, We should start getting ready for RIPE85! This year we have a 1.5 hours slot on Thursday 27 October at 09:00 CEST (draft, things may change). Please, submit your presentation proposal by September 9th by sending an email at mat-wg-chairs(a)ripe.net. We prefer talks of 15min. Include in your email a title, a draft of the presentation, and a paragraph describing what you will talk about and why the topic is of interest for the community. Please, let us know if you are planning to present in person or remotely. Thanks! Cheers, Nina, Stephen, Massimo

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Announcement of new RIS prototype services
by Oleg Muravskiy 05 Aug '22

05 Aug '22

Dear RIS users, Over the past few months, we have created several prototype services that expose RIS data in different ways. These services provide a REST API, and the data they expose is closer to real-time, as compared to our traditional "bview" and "updates" files. These services are: - Per-peer dumps https://ris.ripe.net/docs/40_Prototypes/10_per_peer_dumps.html - Per-RRC dumps https://ris.ripe.net/docs/40_Prototypes/15_per_rrc_dumps.html - Peer metadata https://ris.ripe.net/docs/40_Prototypes/20_peer_metadata.html Please take a look at the documentation (links provided above), try out these new services, and tell us what we can improve! We would love to hear your feedback. Since we're posting this message across multiple mailing lists, we ask you to please share your feedback on the ris-users(a)ripe.net mailing list, or write to us directly at ris(a)ripe.net rather than on this list. Kind regards, Oleg Muravskiy RIPE NCC

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