Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
"A" == Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net> writes: A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" <violet@rosnet.net> A> cc: lir-wg@ripe.net
A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people.
Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-)
A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate A> here? In no way. What about yours? Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers.
I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ?
A> Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities A> (as one can observe from the activities around the issue, A> i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting). Probably you also? A> Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable A> question here while asking what's wrong A> with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a A> show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?" A> ("this" means the current state of things). A> Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach. Ok, A> dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET A> where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot A> live being served by RIPE directly any more; A> you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR) A> to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow. A> Would you please mind explaining the reasons? Sorry for a bit late response. Rosnet can live and communicate to either RIPE and Internic directly. And many others too. And some would prefer be served in Moscow. On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. Actually more full comments on the RIPE 167 were already given by Alexey Platonov which is one of its authors. A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice A> of where to be served from those countries. Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Let us try and see what will follow. We did not mean to gather almost all and ask them move hands here in Moscow. We told all about the whole thing; everybody interested coult present at that meeting. The resume of it was sent to all and we are awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. A> It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even A> to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever A> it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... A> My conclusion: A> * I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to A> * be obsoleted. I'd also like a new edition, say ripe-167+ A> * to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation A> * removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship A> * more representative than a single man from Moscow. Where A> * is (so hyped) community, anyway? A> If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have A> a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support A> from the *representative* community, -- then who needs A> all this show? If the scope of interest in a RIR is A> limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National A> Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care.
Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves.
A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the A> approach of ripe-167 document. I am afraid you mistreat the approach.
But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier.
A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and A> union are different things, aren't they? I meant benefits of uniting .(point) If you suppose uniting of everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? Besides, I was not an author of RIPE 167 and anyway can have my own opinion no matter if some documents exist anywhere or not. As for my letters hereabout -- that is my treatment of that a bit vague general document plus a bit of common sense. Plus my point of view, for that matter, and there are people sharing it with me.
If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered by the fact somebody else wants ?
A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ).
Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can change history of the past we just have to take into consideration the facts no matter if we like them or not.
A> The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead. Do we need another A> union, called "Russian Union", instead? Oh thanks... maybe A> sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear A> and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides... A> if there will be any. But not now, please! Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. And it's done ;-) (joke) I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or later or never! That is your choice only. As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. And we try it. And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does not like it right now ( or even will never like it )?
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------
A> Best regards, A> Andrew Stesin A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE Kind regards, -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote:
On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE establish a RIR without an agreement in the community of the region served? RIR creation should be initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, or am I missing something?
to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region.
fSU is not a region. Please use non-political but geographical terms for defining region borders.
A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice A> of where to be served from those countries.
Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine?
Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". 1:1
awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet.
ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its main ideas in a moment.
Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves.
A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the A> approach of ripe-167 document.
I am afraid you mistreat the approach.
I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain at this point.
But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier.
A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and A> union are different things, aren't they?
I meant benefits of uniting .(point)
There are some benefits and some losses...
If you suppose uniting of everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it?
I don't like the idea of *any* union with *anyone* until it will be though out carefully in all the details and everything will be obvious, certain and clear.
A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions.
I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare free choice for all.
Would you mind pointing me at the written document where one can get a clear and certain statement of this?
I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed.
Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you ought to know English, point. If you don't know English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff is more knowlegeable. Agreed?
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE
In message <Pine.BSF.3.96.980219151333.11129D-100000@beast.gu.net> Andrew Stesin writes:
I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed.
Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you ought to know English, point. If you don't know English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff is more knowlegeable.
I agree with these words about tech. persons, but business isn't only technical questions. We (tech-c) have no troubles with RIPE, but can't say this about my financial department and billing@ripe.net. Moreover, I have to point, there are much more difficulties with solving financial problems, mostly idiotic, with RIPE as a public organisation, then with our other foreign commercial partners. The post-soviet financial rules are too far from european. -- D.Mishin
On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree
AFAIK, RIPE does not have enough priveleges to create another RIR just by itself without IANA. RIPE Office would be fine as long as it remains just part of RIPE. But when you say "RIR" this immediately brings back the issue of choosing which RIR serves which region (RIR is a _Regional_ IR). Should I repeat once more what problems arise from this issue?
to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region.
Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves.
A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the A> approach of ripe-167 document.
I am afraid you mistreat the approach.
It is difficult to mistreat something not clearly defined, you know...
A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions.
I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is
You are most welcome, my dear ;) Here is how: 1. Install the new RIR with region == FSU 2. Make RIPE beleive that the service is good and the new RIR provides sufficient service for all the region. 3. Make RIPE issue RIPE-nnn document which states that from now on all LIRs in FSU are served exclusively by the new RIR. Voila, you are there. When any LIR asks to be served by RIPE, RIPE will answer: according to RIPE-nnn you should be served by the new RIR. Not that I'm deadly serious about this scenario, but I do want some guarantee that it would not happen.
a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time.
Let me remind you what Captain Blood once said: "I'm offering you a free choice: either sign this document or I'll kill you" ;))) Anyone can get out any time at the price of not being LIR anymore. Is that it? ;)))
I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ).
;)
Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside.
We most definitely do need RIPE. (non-joke)
And it's done ;-) (joke)
I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed.
What then?
Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or later or never! That is your choice only.
As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. And we try it.
OK, go ahead and try. Nobody objects. But please, don't make the assumption that others will be happy with your solution. (BTW, you made this assumption also when counting only those "contra", assuming that all others are "pro"). In other words: substitute "Russia" for "CIS" everywhere in RIPE-167 and ask RIPE to allow LIRs not situated in Russia to be served by the new RIR (RRIR? Russian Regional IR) as an option. This seems to resolve the problem. Now, is this acceptible for you?
And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does not like it right now ( or even will never like it )?
The idea may be right or wrong. But if some feel that it is wrong, do you need to pull them with you?
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor@lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor@frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog"
I though we agreed a couple of days ago that: 1. there wasn't any agreement 2. you can force a horse to drink 3. this discussion should die. Can we either have this thread moved from the lir-wg list or dragged out behind the barn and shot right away ? Thank you! -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!"
Having read your letter just after sending mine about the same matter.
"P" == Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk> writes: P> To: igor@office.lucky.net P> cc: violet@rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin), stesin@gu.net, lir-wg@ripe.net P> <199802192006.WAA29389@office.lucky.net> P> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:54:55 +0100
P> I though we agreed a couple of days ago that: P> 1. there wasn't any agreement As for now there likes to be no agreement possible. :-( P> 2. you can force a horse to drink I still hope nobody can. ;-) P> 3. this discussion should die. Sure! P> Can we either have this thread moved from the lir-wg list or dragged P> out behind the barn and shot right away ? No need to move. P> Thank you! Kind regards. P> -- P> Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member P> phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." P> "Drink MONO-tonic, it goes down but it will NEVER come back up!" -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------
I though we agreed a couple of days ago that:
1. there wasn't any agreement 2. you can force a horse to drink 3. this discussion should die.
discussion or we... the latter i presume...
participants (6)
-
Andrew Stesin -
Dmitry Mishin -
Edgar Danielyan -
Igor Romanenko -
Poul-Henning Kamp -
Sergey A. Mukhin