Hi Dmitry, On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Dmitri Bourkov wrote:

...

It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle...

Andrei, I don't like to continue discussion in such form. I see also that you don't want to say that you are afraid of your goverment, even you are afraid of discussion on these theme.

Your words above are neither true nor acceptable as argumentation "pro" "RIR-in-Moscow" project.

I can understand your problems, but I can't agree, when you substituted arguments and problems.

For example, you escaped to discuss alternative place for RIR in Kijev

Huh? Would you mind reminding me about THIS proposal, please? What did I answer -- do you remember? I do. I said that the very first step *must* be a creation of ISP assosiation in Ukraine; everything else will be *after* this, 'cause how can you establish anything serious if you don't have a consensus within the representative community behind of it? That were you who decided to go another way in Russia -- no representative community, no agreement, but "forward! let's do it quickly, or it will be too late!" It might be a valid approach, though, by I don't agree with it so far -- you didn't convince me.

because your real opinion based on your experience with your postsoviet goverment that a single garantee for you - to be under RIPE coverage.

Much simplier. We are happy with RIPE with regard to IP address allocation and we don't feel that any more complexity is needed for us in forseeable future. We are satisfied with the service. Everything is fine! But someone all of a sudden is pulling us (and our contributions, BTW) towards Moscow; what for? As for our Ukrainian goverment. Don't you think that *any* business unit, be it ISP or whatever, which operates on the territory of *any* state, MUST confirm with local laws whatever they are? or? shouldn't the unit be shut down otherwise? Nobody here wants to be shut down. That's the only weak issue in Ukraine for now which I'm aware of -- our local authorities just didn't invent the law for Internet here so far, but are moving towards it's creation. And we (ISP) are taking part in this process; so we are busy dealing with local issues, busy enough here even without any extra political "innovations" brought to us from abroad (either from Russian goverment of whomever else). Technology and business are enough work on their own. TLD is all another story, but it's out of topic for this discussion.

Be honest and strong or I mistakened and I never heard such words from you and your friends.

In such case, sorry guys...

Don't mention. Whatever you are saying isn't in any way a clarification for current ripe-167 approach, do you agree?

Regards, Dmitri

Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE

Andrei, I don't like to continue discussion in such form. I see also that you don't want to say that you are afraid of your goverment, even you are afraid of discussion on these theme.

Dima, you continue to insist on this reason. I'll not try to persuade you (for the third time in a raw) that you are wrong. Instead I'll ask you: well, imagine you are right. What then? How will this influence the new RIR creation except adding reasons against it?

I can understand your problems, but I can't agree, when you substituted arguments and problems.

For example, you escaped to discuss alternative place for RIR in Kijev

The correct spelling is Kyiv, clumsy as it is ;) And I've not heard someone _seriously_ proposing this. I mean: where are you going to recruit the staff, what about the apartments, etc. Well, I hope that UA.LUCKYNET will be able to resolve these problems if it comes to it. ;) And even then I'd be against such a thing if the argumentation will remain as weak as it is now and if the purpose/reason will remain as undefined.

because your real opinion based on your experience with your postsoviet goverment that a single garantee for you - to be under RIPE coverage.

Dima, are you _that_ naive? Really? If my postsoviet, etc. government will decide to teach me some lessons - it will not matter _much_ whether UA.LUCKYNET is served by RIPE NCC, RIPE NCC Office in Moscow or RIPE NCC Office in Kyiv. I'll get the lesson straight in my... rear part.

Be honest and strong or I mistakened and I never heard such words from you and your friends.

May be you are referring to my words during the meeting then. To understand them the unprepared reader (who BTW will most surely skip this discussion altogether) needs to know about the context. During the Moscow meeting several persons including you and Mr.Platonov gave one more argument for RIR creation. You've said that Russian government is going to get serious hold on the Internet development in Russia. (So it is _you_ who is afraid of _your_ government ;) You have said something to the effect that other CIS countries are either experiencing same problems or are going to experience them RSN (tm). One of the steps Russian government will excercise, said Mr.Platonov, would be to create "governmental" RIR and then influence Internet market through this RIR. [As a sidenote, knowing what ROSNIIROS or RIPN is and how it've been created, one gets serious suspicion that Mr.Platonov is doing this very thing - but I'm not interested in this]. Now, the international status of RIR, said you, would make it more difficult for _any_ government to control it (again, who is afraid?). As an answer, I've told you that if Ukrainian government will try this, the fact of RIR being in Moscow will play _against_ me. Should I tell you why? And does this mean that I'm afraid of my government more than you are?

In such case, sorry guys...

"Apologies accepted" (c) Dart Weider ;))))

Regards, Dmitri

Yours, -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor@lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor@frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog"