Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
"A" == Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net> writes: A> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:30:14 +0200 (EET) A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" <violet@rosnet.net> A> cc: lir-wg@ripe.net, ncc@ripe.net
A> On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote:
On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree A> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE A> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community A> of the region served? RIR creation should be A> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, A> or am I missing something?
Quite right. The community does exist and let it decide. Anyway the necessity of either RIR or RIPE office seems to me reasonable.
to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region.
A> fSU is not a region. Please use non-political A> but geographical terms for defining region borders. I always thought the term "geographical region" makes sense. To pity I am not so good in geography to define something for sure in geographical terms. Let us speak about East Europe and, ugm, some of Asia region. More precisely, about LIRs in that region which found reasonable to unite and get a RIR or RIPE office. Would that do? I would add: regions from fSU countries and to put it frankly do not see why you do not like such a definition. A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice A> of where to be served from those countries.
Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine?
A> Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? A> Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". A> 1:1 It was not necessary to present there physically. The voting system was not Soviet-like. Everybody concerned was noticed and if they sent no votes "contra", they are "pro". I have no precise data -- let us ask people who keep those things running. Besides, if I get things right LIRs were counted, not countries.
awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet.
A> ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its A> main ideas in a moment. Well, it was available for far more time than a moment.
Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves.
A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the A> approach of ripe-167 document.
I am afraid you mistreat the approach.
A> I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain A> at this point. Maybe. For that case there are its authors able to clarify details.
But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier.
A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and A> union are different things, aren't they?
I meant benefits of uniting .(point)
A> There are some benefits and some losses... Sure. As in any business though. Some people call that "choice".
If you suppose uniting of everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it?
A> I don't like the idea of *any* union with *anyone* until A> it will be though out carefully in all the details A> and everything will be obvious, certain and clear. I think exactly so. :-) Very reasonable. A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions.
I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare free choice for all.
A> Would you mind pointing me at the written document where A> one can get a clear and certain statement of this? Alas, I can not. Hope somebody else can.clarify that matter.
I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed.
A> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian A> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you A> ought to know English, point. If you don't know A> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff A> is more knowlegeable. A> Agreed? No. Ideally everybody which has an Internet connectivity should know English. You ( or I ) may say, `ought' as many times as we'd like -- and nothing will change.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------
A> Best regards, A> Andrew Stesin A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote:
of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree A> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE A> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community A> of the region served? RIR creation should be A> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, A> or am I missing something?
Quite right. The community does exist ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Would you mind providing a proof of validity for this statement?
[... region definition ...]
I would add: regions from fSU countries and to put it frankly do not see why you do not like such a definition.
I don't like the definition above because we live today, looking for tomorrow, and "fSU" is the term from yesterday ("historical"). Who cares today about yesteday' mess?
A> Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? A> Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". A> 1:1
It was not necessary to present there physically. The voting system ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What a nice news! ;) If say I wasn't present there physically, what the Decision' text could look like? Note: the text of the projected Decision of Moscow meeting wasn't published electronicaly and open for discussion!
was not Soviet-like. Everybody concerned was noticed and if they sent no votes "contra", they are "pro". I have no precise data -- let us ask people who keep those things running. Besides, if I get things right LIRs were counted, not countries.
Neither you nor me didn't get things right, because the documents (both ripe-167 and the Decision) are *very* unclear at this point and who knows where truth might be?
A> ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its A> main ideas in a moment.
Well, it was available for far more time than a moment.
... and nobody cared starting polishing it until Moscow meeting. And nobody even cared to translate it to Russian so far.
A> I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain A> at this point.
Maybe. For that case there are its authors able to clarify details.
I'd like to see *the* document which is independent of any personalities (who may or may not change their opinions in time) and spoken opinions. [...]
If you suppose uniting of everybody but us,
*You* said this; I didn't.
that sounds a bit odd, does not it?
[...]
I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare free choice for all.
A> Would you mind pointing me at the written document where A> one can get a clear and certain statement of this?
Alas, I can not. Hope somebody else can.clarify that matter.
Ghmm.
I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed.
A> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian A> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you A> ought to know English, point. If you don't know A> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff A> is more knowlegeable.
A> Agreed?
No. Ideally everybody which has an Internet connectivity should know English.
*This* statement of yours is plain wrong. Getting connected doesn't nessesary mean one should go learn English;
You ( or I ) may say, `ought' as many times as we'd like -- and nothing will change.
... but those who serves people' connections *must* know English otherwise how can they perform their job? Please don't mix customer and provider, also LIR isn't just average provider; it's the next level of skills and experience, in general.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE
PLEASE take this discussion out of RIPE list!!! Please!!! It gets so boring! Almost everyone concerned expressed their/his/her opinions, so please chat privately... Poor non-FSU'ers... Seems now I understand why we aren't being admitted to the EU :)
On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote:
of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE
of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree A> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE A> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community A> of the region served? RIR creation should be A> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, A> or am I missing something?
Quite right. The community does exist and let it decide.
How will you find out that decision? By voting? Where is the voting mechanics defined?
Anyway the necessity of either RIR or RIPE office seems to me reasonable.
You missed the point. RIPE Office will be subsidiary of RIPE itself and will be dependable on RIPE. That's some guarantee of fair play. And we do not create new _essenses_ by establishing the Office, nor do we redefine regions. RIR on the other hand would be equivalent to RIPE. That's the absence of guarantee. Got it?
to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region.
A> fSU is not a region. Please use non-political A> but geographical terms for defining region borders.
I always thought the term "geographical region" makes sense. To pity I am not so good in geography to define something for sure in geographical terms. Let us speak about East Europe and, ugm, some of Asia region. More precisely,
That is including Hungary, Poland, right? And what part of China would you like to be included? You see, you start with the predefined region (predefined by political rather then geographical realities) and now find it difficult to translate your definition into geographical language.
about LIRs in that region which found reasonable to unite and get a RIR or RIPE office. Would that do?
Again "RIR or RIPE Office"... Ugh... RIPE Office serving part of China? BTW if you define the influential domain of the new RIR as "everyone who likes the new RIR", you will abandon regional structure of RIRs and introduce chaos.
I would add: regions from fSU countries and to put it frankly do not see why you do not like such a definition.
Are you deaf? 1. Because it's political, not geographical. 2. Because creating RIR for such a region will most definitely meet objections from most LIRs in many FSU countries (Lithuania, Eesti, Ukraine - just to name a few). How will resolve this problem? If you (or Mr.Bourkov or Mr.Platonov) are so inclined to use the bottom-up approach - then why not to start with Russia and then see - who is going to be served by such a RIR? In another letter you (and Mr.Bourkov) have answered why: You are afraid of your government and the international status of the new RIR will make you feel better. A good reason for forcing others into your boat...
A> Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? A> Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". A> 1:1
It was not necessary to present there physically. The voting system was not Soviet-like. Everybody concerned was noticed and if they sent no votes "contra", they are "pro". I have no precise data --
An extremly dangerous assumption. Is Lithuania "pro"? Is Armenia "pro"? They were not in Moscow, nevertheless.
let us ask people who keep those things running. Besides, if I get things right LIRs were counted, not countries.
What a nice thing to do - just go and count LIRs! Disregarding the fact that Russia has twice as many LIRs as Ukraine does. What a democratic thought! You are late. I've already pointed out such thinking as the possible example of why the future RIR will always express Russian point of view. Thanx for demonstrating that my speculations were not pure theoretical. :(
awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet.
A> ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its A> main ideas in a moment.
Well, it was available for far more time than a moment.
...and still there is the discussion on what the original intentions were...
A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and A> union are different things, aren't they?
I meant benefits of uniting .(point)
A> There are some benefits and some losses...
Sure. As in any business though. Some people call that "choice".
Argh!!! So what the choice is exactly?
I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare ^^^^^^^^^^ free choice for all. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A> Would you mind pointing me at the written document where ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A> one can get a clear and certain statement of this?
Alas, I can not. Hope somebody else can.clarify that matter. ^^^^^^^^^
No comments.
A> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian A> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you A> ought to know English, point. If you don't know A> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff A> is more knowlegeable.
A> Agreed?
No. Ideally everybody which has an Internet connectivity should know English. You ( or I ) may say, `ought' as many times as we'd like -- and nothing will change.
You are again mistaking LIR personnel for normal Internet users. Forget it. Normal users of trolleybus need know nothing about driving. Drivers ought to know though.
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor@lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor@frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog"
participants (4)
-
Andrew Stesin -
Edgar Danielyan -
Igor Romanenko -
Sergey A. Mukhin