Some time ago the RIPE NCC introduced a system through which LIRs could inform the RIPE NCC of changes to their LIR contacts by updating their role object. Adding the attribute [notify: hm-dbm-msgs@ripe.net] within their role object meant that whenever this role object was updated the RIPE NCC would get a RIPE database notification message and update the internal record for your Local Internet Registry contacts based on the tech-c or admin-c changes made within the role object. This system was introduced because at that time the only way LIRs were able to inform the RIPE NCC of changes to their Local Internet Registry contacts was through the <hostmaster@ripe.net> mailbox. Nowadays LIRs can notify the RIPE NCC of changes through the <lir-help@ripe.net> mailbox which is ticketised and thus all emails are archived. Using the 'notify' system within a role object for LIR contact changes proved to be very time consuming, impractical and above all not very reliable for several reasons: - The same role object was sometimes updated 3 times a week: adding a contact one day, removing it the next day and adding it again 12 hours later. The intention of changing LIR contacts so frequently is questionable. - Role objects were referring to other role objects with or without the notify attribute pointing to the RIPE NCC. Verification of the requested changes was difficult. - Some LIRs did not realise that if they removed a contact from their role object, this contact would no longer be able to submit request forms to the RIPE NCC. Implications of changes to the role object were often not realised by the LIRs and produced misunderstandings. Information about this purely operational change to the procedure of changing LIR contacts was only sent to those LIRs who had a notify attribute pointing to <hm-dbm-msgs@ripe.net> in their role object(s). Apologies for the lack of explanation in that message. Using the <lir-help@ripe.net> mailbox proved to be a much more consistent, reliable and efficient way of changing confidential contact information. Regards, Sabrina Wilmot -- o------------------------------------------o | Sabrina Wilmot sabrina@ripe.net | | Registration Services Operations Manager | | | | RIPE NCC tel +31 20 535 4444 | | www.ripe.net fax +31 20 535 4445 | o------------------------------------------o "Stephen Burley" <stephenb@uk.uu.net> writes: * Hi * I am a little concerned with the email we recieved today (copied below * in part). This was sent to the community and enforced without any reason why * or justification or even a dicussion as the the change in working practice. * As the NCC work for the benefit of the RIPE community i would have thought * this sort of change in working practice would have to be agreed with the * community before the announcment went out. I may have missed the discussion * on the list and if so i am sorry but i still would think it manners to * explain why. I for one found this functionality very useful. * * Regards, * Stephen Burley * UUNET EMEA Hostmaster * SB855-ripe * * * [PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO YOUR LOCAL INTERNET REGISTRY CONTACT] * * Dear Colleague, * * This email is to inform you that the RIPE NCC no longer updates * its internal record for your Local Internet Registry contacts * based on the tech-c or admin-c changes you make within your role * object. Therefore we ask you to remove the line * 'notify: hm-dbm-msgs@ripe.net' from your role object: * * *
Thankyou for your explanation. I see the same old problem with this process as with the usages reports when requesting more space. That problem is the NCC are trying to do too much and not handing enough responsability to us the LIR usrers/managers. Looking at it objectivly we the mangers of the LIR's should be the ones who know who is a VPC (valid point of contact) within the LIR so it seems pointless that the NCC have to manage the list of VPC for your LIR. What i see as the best solution is to create an automated system which we can manage so you have a valid list of our VPC's, instead of adding yet another ticketed system which you the NCC have to spend time and money (our money) on upkeeping. Besides which it would be much faster. Moving it to another mail ticketing is not removing the problem just giving a record of the problems but putting the responsability back in our hands removes the problem for you and improves the service all round.
Some time ago the RIPE NCC introduced a system through which LIRs could
the RIPE NCC of changes to their LIR contacts by updating their role object.
Adding the attribute [notify: hm-dbm-msgs@ripe.net] within their role object meant that whenever this role object was updated the RIPE NCC would get a RIPE database notification message and update the internal record for your Local Internet Registry contacts based on the tech-c or admin-c changes made within the role object.
This system was introduced because at that time the only way LIRs were able to inform the RIPE NCC of changes to their Local Internet Registry contacts was through the <hostmaster@ripe.net> mailbox.
Nowadays LIRs can notify the RIPE NCC of changes through the <lir-help@ripe.net> mailbox which is ticketised and thus all emails are archived.
Using the 'notify' system within a role object for LIR contact changes
to be very time consuming, impractical and above all not very reliable for several reasons:
- The same role object was sometimes updated 3 times a week: adding a contact one day, removing it the next day and adding it again 12 hours later. The intention of changing LIR contacts so frequently is questionable.
- Role objects were referring to other role objects with or without the notify attribute pointing to the RIPE NCC. Verification of the requested changes was difficult.
- Some LIRs did not realise that if they removed a contact from their role object, this contact would no longer be able to submit request forms to
RIPE NCC. Implications of changes to the role object were often not realised by the LIRs and produced misunderstandings.
Information about this purely operational change to the procedure of changing LIR contacts was only sent to those LIRs who had a notify attribute
to <hm-dbm-msgs@ripe.net> in their role object(s). Apologies for the lack of explanation in that message.
Using the <lir-help@ripe.net> mailbox proved to be a much more consistent, reliable and efficient way of changing confidential contact information.
Regards,
Sabrina Wilmot
--
o------------------------------------------o | Sabrina Wilmot sabrina@ripe.net | | Registration Services Operations Manager | | | | RIPE NCC tel +31 20 535 4444 | | www.ripe.net fax +31 20 535 4445 | o------------------------------------------o
"Stephen Burley" <stephenb@uk.uu.net> writes: * Hi * I am a little concerned with the email we recieved today (copied below * in part). This was sent to the community and enforced without any reason why * or justification or even a dicussion as the the change in working
* As the NCC work for the benefit of the RIPE community i would have
* this sort of change in working practice would have to be agreed with
inform proved the pointing practice. thought the
* community before the announcment went out. I may have missed the discussion * on the list and if so i am sorry but i still would think it manners to * explain why. I for one found this functionality very useful. * * Regards, * Stephen Burley * UUNET EMEA Hostmaster * SB855-ripe * * * [PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO YOUR LOCAL INTERNET REGISTRY CONTACT] * * Dear Colleague, * * This email is to inform you that the RIPE NCC no longer updates * its internal record for your Local Internet Registry contacts * based on the tech-c or admin-c changes you make within your role * object. Therefore we ask you to remove the line * 'notify: hm-dbm-msgs@ripe.net' from your role object: * * *
Hi,
as with the usages reports when requesting more space. That problem is the NCC are trying to do too much and not handing enough responsability to us the LIR usrers/managers. Looking at it objectivly we the mangers of the LIR's should be the ones who know who is a VPC (valid point of contact)
That is true for your company and many more, but not for all. Take into account that the NCC needs to handle equally cases where everything is properly done and crystal clear and cases where inadequate or misguided management has taken place. Personally speaking, I tend to feel that we, LIR managers, should be allowed to do as much of our job as possible. However, this message is to say that I see at least one reason why Ripe do as they do. -- Alfredo Sola Director tecnico
That is true for your company and many more, but not for all. Take into account that the NCC needs to handle equally cases where everything is properly done and crystal clear and cases where inadequate or misguided management has taken place.
Personally speaking, I tend to feel that we, LIR managers, should be allowed to do as much of our job as possible. However, this message is to say that I see at least one reason why Ripe do as they do.
Ok i take your point but then there should atleast be the choice, self managment of the list of VPC's or NCC managment of the list.
-- Alfredo Sola Director tecnico
On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Stephen Burley wrote: Hi, there we'do support this suggestion, managers of the LIRs should have opportunity to update regid info without contacting NCC, however inner database surely must be managed by NCC staff themself. Trying to resolve this contradiction it would be reasonable to discuss *regid* database object. I mean short/public version of regid file (regid, descr, lir-contact and smth. else), it may be protected by LIR and NCC maintainers, NCC will act accordingly having received update notification from database while LIR'll send (very occasionally) serious updates to lir-help box. Oleg
Thankyou for your explanation. I see the same old problem with this process as with the usages reports when requesting more space. That problem is the NCC are trying to do too much and not handing enough responsability to us the LIR usrers/managers. Looking at it objectivly we the mangers of the LIR's should be the ones who know who is a VPC (valid point of contact) within the LIR so it seems pointless that the NCC have to manage the list of VPC for your LIR. What i see as the best solution is to create an automated system which we can manage so you have a valid list of our VPC's, instead of adding yet another ticketed system which you the NCC have to spend time and money (our money) on upkeeping. Besides which it would be much faster. Moving it to another mail ticketing is not removing the problem just giving a record of the problems but putting the responsability back in our hands removes the problem for you and improves the service all round.
Some time ago the RIPE NCC introduced a system through which LIRs could
the RIPE NCC of changes to their LIR contacts by updating their role object.
Adding the attribute [notify: hm-dbm-msgs@ripe.net] within their role object meant that whenever this role object was updated the RIPE NCC would get a RIPE database notification message and update the internal record for your Local Internet Registry contacts based on the tech-c or admin-c changes made within the role object.
This system was introduced because at that time the only way LIRs were able to inform the RIPE NCC of changes to their Local Internet Registry contacts was through the <hostmaster@ripe.net> mailbox.
Nowadays LIRs can notify the RIPE NCC of changes through the <lir-help@ripe.net> mailbox which is ticketised and thus all emails are archived.
Using the 'notify' system within a role object for LIR contact changes
to be very time consuming, impractical and above all not very reliable for several reasons:
- The same role object was sometimes updated 3 times a week: adding a contact one day, removing it the next day and adding it again 12 hours later. The intention of changing LIR contacts so frequently is questionable.
- Role objects were referring to other role objects with or without the notify attribute pointing to the RIPE NCC. Verification of the requested changes was difficult.
- Some LIRs did not realise that if they removed a contact from their role object, this contact would no longer be able to submit request forms to
RIPE NCC. Implications of changes to the role object were often not realised by the LIRs and produced misunderstandings.
Information about this purely operational change to the procedure of changing LIR contacts was only sent to those LIRs who had a notify attribute
to <hm-dbm-msgs@ripe.net> in their role object(s). Apologies for the lack of explanation in that message.
Using the <lir-help@ripe.net> mailbox proved to be a much more consistent, reliable and efficient way of changing confidential contact information.
Regards,
Sabrina Wilmot
--
o------------------------------------------o | Sabrina Wilmot sabrina@ripe.net | | Registration Services Operations Manager | | | | RIPE NCC tel +31 20 535 4444 | | www.ripe.net fax +31 20 535 4445 | o------------------------------------------o
"Stephen Burley" <stephenb@uk.uu.net> writes: * Hi * I am a little concerned with the email we recieved today (copied below * in part). This was sent to the community and enforced without any reason why * or justification or even a dicussion as the the change in working
* As the NCC work for the benefit of the RIPE community i would have
* this sort of change in working practice would have to be agreed with
inform proved the pointing practice. thought the
* community before the announcment went out. I may have missed the discussion * on the list and if so i am sorry but i still would think it manners to * explain why. I for one found this functionality very useful. * * Regards, * Stephen Burley * UUNET EMEA Hostmaster * SB855-ripe * * * [PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO YOUR LOCAL INTERNET REGISTRY CONTACT] * * Dear Colleague, * * This email is to inform you that the RIPE NCC no longer updates * its internal record for your Local Internet Registry contacts * based on the tech-c or admin-c changes you make within your role * object. Therefore we ask you to remove the line * 'notify: hm-dbm-msgs@ripe.net' from your role object: * * *
With respect, --- RIPN Registry center -----
Colleagues, On Wed, 6 Mar 2002 bon@ripn.net wrote:
we'do support this suggestion, managers of the LIRs should have opportunity to update regid info without contacting NCC, however inner database surely must be managed by NCC staff themself. Trying to resolve this contradiction it would be reasonable to discuss *regid* database object. I mean short/public version of regid file (regid, descr, lir-contact and smth. else), it may be protected by LIR and NCC maintainers, NCC will act accordingly having received update notification from database while LIR'll send (very occasionally) serious updates to lir-help box.
We've got very interesting point here. I'm afraid this, earlier or later, leads us to the main point which RIPE NCC wants (or at least seems to want) to avoid: public and private parts of the Database. Although it would be very useful to hide some valuable info from anyone except the maintainer, the process of both defining such data and managing it should be made very clear and, of course, agreed by the community. Perhaps now is the time to widely discuss it? Sincerely, D.Marck [DM5020, DM268-RIPE, DM3-RIPN] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *** Dmitry Morozovsky --- D.Marck --- Wild Woozle --- marck@rinet.ru *** ------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with the point that we should try to automate as much as possible and move the updating of the LIR contact info from manual hostmaster work to some ineractive tool to be used by the LIR management. I was in the beginning very much in favour of the feature now removed where I could update my LIR contact information by updating my role object. I have however changed my mind on this and do see the need for a RIPE NCC Internal list with a list of the staff I have autorized to act on our behalf which may include more persons than I want to advertize to the whole world. (Maybe I just want to list our NOC as the only tech-c responsible without attaching any names to it. So my suggestion to this would be for the RIPE NCC to develop some Interactive web based tool where LIRs can view and update RIPE NCC internal contact file perhaps modelled after the APNIC solution with a secure web site for this. -hph
Dear all, At 20:18 +0100 6/3/02, Hans Petter Holen wrote:
So my suggestion to this would be for the RIPE NCC to develop some Interactive web based tool where LIRs can view and update RIPE NCC internal contact file perhaps modelled after the APNIC solution with a secure web site for this.
This is indeed what we are intending to do: provide the RIPE NCC membership with ways of accessing and modifying their own data using currently avaiable technologies such as a secure web site and any other appropriate means that LIRs may find interesting and are feasible to deploy taking into consideration security, privacy and efficiency, to name a few. I hope to be able to present our current thoughts on the matter during the next RIPE meeting. We would like to start by providing facilities to update contact information as this is a clear and present source of workload for both the LIRs and the RIPE NCC hostmasters. Further developments include implementations recommendations of the May 17 taskforce and facilities built on the internal and external databases of the RIPE NCC. I would also like to add that as preparation for the roll-out of such a service we have recently started adapting our internal databases to allow the display and modification of information in a safe way. Best regards, Joao Damas RIPE NCC --
On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Joao Luis Silva Damas wrote: Hi everybody,
Dear all,
At 20:18 +0100 6/3/02, Hans Petter Holen wrote:
So my suggestion to this would be for the RIPE NCC to develop some Interactive web based tool where LIRs can view and update RIPE NCC internal contact file perhaps modelled after the APNIC solution with a secure web site for this.
This is indeed what we are intending to do: provide the RIPE NCC membership with ways of accessing and modifying their own data using currently avaiable technologies such as a secure web site and any other appropriate means that LIRs may find interesting and are feasible to deploy taking into consideration security, privacy and efficiency, to name a few.
i think a secure web site is a very good idea. But, let's look at first, which inform is really secret in the regid file. I only find one: bill-scheme. Everything else could be published very well. Or perhaps someone could find more?
I hope to be able to present our current thoughts on the matter during the next RIPE meeting. We would like to start by providing facilities to update contact information as this is a clear and present source of workload for both the LIRs and the RIPE NCC hostmasters. Further developments include implementations recommendations of the May 17 taskforce and facilities built on the internal and external databases of the RIPE NCC.
I would also like to add that as preparation for the roll-out of such a service we have recently started adapting our internal databases to allow the display and modification of information in a safe way.
Best regards, Joao Damas RIPE NCC --
With respect, Larisa Yurkina --- RIPN Registry center -----
Dear Larisa, "Larisa A. Yurkina" wrote:
i think a secure web site is a very good idea. But, let's look at first, which inform is really secret in the regid file. I only find one: bill-scheme. Everything else could be published very well. Or perhaps someone could find more?
I believe that not every LIR is willing to reveal the names, phone numbers, email addresses etc. to head hunters, for example. Cheers, Carsten
On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Carsten Schiefner wrote: Dear Carsten,
Dear Larisa,
"Larisa A. Yurkina" wrote:
i think a secure web site is a very good idea. But, let's look at first, which inform is really secret in the regid file. I only find one: bill-scheme. Everything else could be published very well. Or perhaps someone could find more?
I believe that not every LIR is willing to reveal the names, phone numbers, email addresses etc. to head hunters, for example.
each person listed in the registry file has nic-hdl in the ripe database, with his or her name, address etc. I think, the list only includes persons authorized to act as lir contacts. If they do act, they are known by their nic-hdls. If they do not act, why list them? Some additional object containing lir data in the ripe db could only make head hunters's life easier, but not very much. Thank you.
Cheers,
Carsten
With respect, Larisa Yurkina --- RIPN Registry center -----
participants (9)
-
Alfredo Sola -
bon＠ripn.net -
Carsten Schiefner -
Dmitry Morozovsky -
Hans Petter Holen -
Joao Luis Silva Damas -
Larisa A. Yurkina -
Sabrina Wilmot -
Stephen Burley