Greetings,
"I" == Igor Romanenko <igor@office.lucky.net> writes: I> To: hostmaster@taide.net I> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:15:23 +0200 (EET) I> Cc: Mike.Norris@heanet.ie, ncc@ripe.net, lir-wg@ripe.net
OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP in APNIC stand for.
Regards.
Mike Norris
Thanks Mike, it's a briliant remark!
Excerpt from RIPE-167:
If has been suggested more than once that the coun- tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from Europe that needed special regional support.
I> Argh! Now you start to understand what RIPE-167 is really all about. IMHO that point was included just as a formal reason for creating yet another RIR. I never heard anything about making Ukraine or anybody else to be served by it against their will neither at that meeting nor in corresponding maillists. The only who spoke so were Ukrainian representatives. And what makes sense if Russia is situated in Asia as well as in Europe? It would sound a bit odd if we end up served half by RIPE and half by APNIC considering there are ISPs which serve clients in Vladivostok as well as in Moscow. I believe we definetely need a RIR and anybody who likes to work with it is welcome.
Sounds with no pardon... A huge region is treated as Terra ******* (self censored) Incognita with savage population.
I> It does not matter that much. I mean, I do not take this as an offense.
FYI: CIS countries are Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Moldova, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan, Kirgyzstan, Uzbekistan,Tadjikistan, Turkmenistan.
There is no denying the fact that part of them are in Europe or very close to it.
I> Addition: "and tend to aim at becoming part of Europian community"
IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN).
I> Which is not difference at all, granted that all CIS countries I> as well as Baltic ones have their own respective languages. I> Add the fact that technicians normally _do_ speak English well I> enough to make "language matters" of small importance even for Russian LIRs. For some people there is no difference. For some other there is a difference. I like that manner to speak for all. Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. Of course, that is possible to have Russian ( Kazakh, Tadjik, etc ) speaking people in RIPE office. Also it's possible to teach everybody concerned to speak English. And what would do people who cannot yet? Not to allow them to use Internet? And there _are_ technicians at least in Moscow and St. Petersbourg who does not know English enough to speak or write email. There are lots of people who can understand documents in English but not write something. Consider the difference between Europe and Russia ( and for that matter other CIS countries ) I> The other difference pointed out at Moscow meeting was payment I> in roubles which really does not make sense in other CIS or FSU countries. Well, maybe. Alas, there still are people and firms and ISP's which have no credit cards. And if the feature would be useful for some of them -- why to neglect it?
If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like hostmaster-ru@ripe.net and so on), it seems essential that European LIRs might choose among the 2 European RIRs, but not vice versa, when some _authority_ will decide, that starting from day V. all LIRs in country CC will be served by appropriate RIR.
I> And the results may well turn to be disastrous. During the Moscow meeting I> some things were made quite obvious I> 1. There will be no eternal alternative. There will be finite test I> period after which all LIRs should be served by only one RIR. If the service is good enough and LIRS agree to it. As far as the RIPE-167 authors thought there might be problems to be served by RIPE if the RIR is functioning. Nothing else. I> 2. After the test period the decision should be made by some kind of voting. I> At first it seems that the voting rules (as outlined in Moscow I> meeting's statement) are really democratic. The decision should be I> made "based on agreement of not less then 2/3 of registered LIRs, I> functioning on the territory of each of the countries served" I> (translation is mine, I can send you the text in Russian if you like). I> Now, the question is: does this mean 2/3 of _all_ the LIRs I> in _all_ countries served? Simple arithmetic will show you that I> if this was the intended meaning, Russian LIRs will _always_ I> outvote any other. BTW, this could be the case with all the other I> votings, decisions and the like. I> 3. The fact that representatives of some countries were absent I> during the Moscow meeting will be taken as the indication I> that LIRs in these countries "do not care" rather then "do not agree". I> Mr.Stesin had already pointed this out. Let me show you an example: I> at Moscow meeting there were 4 LIRs from Ukraine. _All_ of them I> voted against the statement. The result was: the statement had been I> adopted nevertheless. I> ... However there was a separate opinion of Ukraine in the final statement. Some time later Kazakhstan ISPs sent a message agreeing to that meeting resume. And nobody but Ukraine said a word against that yet. My (private) general impression of that meeting is: Ukraine does not want to be served by RIR in Russia under any circumstances. On the other hand nobody insisted on that and nobody is going to. There is good enough future for Internet developing in Russia and it would make sense to found RIR for it and the countries from ex-USSR who would like to join it. They all are independent and have all rights to choose. I> I've sent all my remarks w.r.t. Moscow meeting to Mr.Karrenberg and will I> resend them to the list if there will be some interest
I hope that authors of the document are on the list and kindly invite them clearify the essence.
I> Sorry, but are you that naive? I've told all this during the Moscow meeting. I> Can you guess the answers?
Othervise we'll continue discussion about nothing.
I> Sorry, no. The more LIRs will ask questions about RIPE-167, the more I> obvious it will become what it is really aimed at. The more obvious I> it will become that the idea of CIS-RIR or FSU-RIR or whatever it will I> be called, does not meet that much appreciation in CIS/FSU/... I> The more difficult it will be for Mr.Platonov to advocate CIS-RIR I> in it's current (proposed) form. Cf. 3 above.
With best regards,
Rimas Janusauskas
I> Yours, I> -- I> Igor Romanenko @..@ I> Office: igor@lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) I> Home: igor@frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) I> http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " I> "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet@rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------