Is anybody else starting to see the same scaling problem we are with the IR-LIR-Enduser hierarchy? We see two things happening: we ourselves are probably the largest ISP in Switzerland, which means we are getting a lot of bottom-tier ISPs as customers. At the same time, the VSE idea is catching on, so our ISP customers are themselves signing up lots of end-users who only need (and are prepared to accept) /27 or smaller assignments. This is causing us lots of problems, because our own LIR hostmaster team is dimensioned to assess requests from end-users connecting directly to our own network. Now in the past month I have seen 4 four requests from ISP customers for /24 ranges that should be assigned to their own VSE customers, but we have to reject the requests and ask the ISPs to re-submit 8 or so individual requests for each VSE end-user, which we have to vet. What makes this worse is that the ISPs are not set up to collect the usual info required for an assessment. It is also bloating our internal routing tables, and while not yet a problem, I would give it two years before it does become a problem. There are some ways we can improve the situation, but most of them involve discouraging ISPs from making these assignments (for example, we could charge prohibitivly for 'LIR' services if the end-user is not our customer, or we could suggest that ISPs wanting more than (say) a /22 for VSE customers should become a LIR itself). But I have to say that in most cases these assigments are probably justified - end-users really are buying into the idea of classless VSE assignments - and I think this community should do all in it's power to make it *easier* to make VSE assignments. On the other hand, we as a LIR simply cannot handle the rush of requests from end-users that are not our own customers... My suggestion: we need another tier in the IR-LIR-Enduser hierarchy. I suggest that LIRs be able to delegate a small range of space to a sub-LIR. For the sake of argument, this could be a /24, and one could stipulate that only VSE assignments can be made from this range. Of course, the assigning LIR is still held responsible for the correct assignment of this space, and could employ many/all of the techniques an IR itself uses to manage the activites of LIRs. The sub-LIR is responsible for assessment and assignment, and registration in the DB. The advantage is that this model is scalable, since it delegates much of the LIR function closer to the end-user. It also removes the motivation for small ISPs to become LIRs themselves and receive a perhaps unjustifiable large /19 allocation. A further advantage is that is improves route aggregation within the LIR's own internal routing system. Feedback? I am hurridly donning my asbestos suit in anticipation of the forthcoming blast of flames ;-) Phil ______________________________________________________________ Philip Bridge ++41 31 688 8262 bridge@ip-plus.net www.ip-plus.ch PGP: DE78 06B7 ACDB CB56 CE88 6165 A73F B703