- lir-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects
by henning.brauer＠bsmail.de 30 Jun '00

30 Jun '00

----- Forwarded by Henning Brauer/BSWS/DE on 30.06.00 13:16 ----- Henning Brauer To: "Sabine Dolderer/Denic" <dolderer(a)denic.de> 30.06.00 13:14 cc: Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects (Document link: Henning Brauer) a) agree. But the Maintainer-Scheme works really good, so I do nao see any reason for changing this. b) Just one Example (now): bss004:~ # whois -h whois.denic.de NOC54-RIPE Connection refused; server has reached maximum number of clients. Anonther: dns.denic.de didn't answered authoritative for de-Domains Yesterday evening... c) No One would sya anything if you would just take the ripe-solution so we had to change email-adress for updates. Even other changes, like source: and perhaps phone, fax and so in beeing optional, would be acceptable. But there is no doc how updates will be made! d) customers do agree to this when putting ther data in the DB. As I said before: Just make phone and fax optional, everbody will agree. If it would be true what you are saying here, even Telephone books would be illegal. e) just compare whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE with whois -h whois.denic.de NOC54-RIPE. I'd like to show you this here, but DENIC's whois-Server is not reponding. The problem is that if you di an whois-query for an .de-Domain (in most cases using one of the web-interface) you'll see the crippeled data from ther denic whois-db. f) means there will be costs? You do not answer the question here. g) answer? Thanks for participationg this discussion. But why was this discussion not possible before doing the move?? As said before: RIPE-Meetings and hostmaster-list ARE closed communities, the db-wg(a)ripe.net would have been the right place. Greetings Henning Brauer Hostmaster BSWS ------------------------------------------------ BS Web Services Roedingsmarkt 14 20459 Hamburg Germany info(a)bsmail.de www.bsws.de fon: +49 40 3750357-0 fax: +49 40 3750357-5 PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE "Sabine Dolderer/Deni To: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de c" cc: db-wg(a)ripe.net, info(a)denic.de, lir-wg(a)ripe.net, robert(a)martin-legene.dk <dolderer@den Subject: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects ic.de> 30.06.00 12:44 Hello, On 30.06.00 11:07 henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de wrote: > > > Hi, > > thats not really the point of our critics. > a) changes only be made by members???? as every DE-domainowner is our customer and we are responisble to him about the security of his domainname we must assure that changes are made in a verifyable and accountable way. It is important that there is a documented responsibility. > b) technical solution - RIPE's solutions are working really good, DENIC's > past solutions are poor no comment. > c) change in interfaces not acceptable changes in interfaces are sometimes necessary. But I am with you that this should happen very rarely and should be prepared very well and people should be informed very soon -- but we tried to make all this. > d) contact info's, especially phone and fax, are REALLY important for the > hostmasters to inform each other about technical probs. If this could be > against German's laws, just make these fields optional. we are only allowed to publish these things if the custoumer have signed that he allows the publishing. Currently we think that from nearly none of the persons in the RIPE-DB this allowence is there. For the future we plan to let the people the choice to publish these data. > e) putting so named "non-operational data" or "test data" which is > incomplete and partly incorrect in production systems (it IS in > productionis - just do an whoi-query...) is not acceptable sorry I don't understand these point. Maybe you can show me an example of these "test data". > f) plans making life for non-members harder -> DENIC tries to get more > payin' members???? As we are working on a costrecovery base (non-profit) more members don't means automatically more income. But surely are we are interested in organisations taking the responsibitlity and sharing the risk to run the German Registry as a self regulating body for the benefits of the German Internet Community. > g) plans to charge for person: and role: records? > h) to be continued... Regards Sabine > > pls see http://denicpetition.bsws.de > > Greetings from Germany > > Henning Brauer > Hostmaster BSWS > > ------------------------------------------------ > BS Web Services > Roedingsmarkt 14 > 20459 Hamburg > Germany > > info(a)bsmail.de > www.bsws.de > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > "Sabine > Dolderer/Deni To: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de > c" cc: db-wg(a)ripe.net, info(a)denic.de, > lir-wg(a)ripe.net, robert(a)martin-legene.dk > <dolderer@den Subject: Antwort: Re: AW: AW: > Deletion of .de domain objects > ic.de> > > 30.06.00 > 10:39 > > > > > > > Hello, > > speaking for DENIC ;-). I will try to comment about the reasons why we > have (or even must) done the migration. > > First of all I want to try to summarize the problems we are faced in the > past and then I will come to an explanation of the solution we choose. > > Problems: > > There were a lot of discussions in the past about domain-objects in the > RIPE-database and that they cause too much capacity for RIPE to maintain > their database for this amount of objects. > > There was a common understanding that RIPE is not a service provider for > domainregistries like ccTLDs but there were indeed suggestions to offer or > assist us in this kind of service. > > There were a lot of pressure from our dataprotection office that due to > our business we pubish data (or we urge provider to puplish data of their > customers) which is not allowed to publish under German data protection > laws. Mainly the existence of the inverse query feature and the publishing > of data like phone-, faxnumbers and email addresses was critisized. > > We have had also a lot of discussions about the issue with other ccTLDs > and with people from the EU commission. The fundamental outcome of these > discussion was that there is no real issue to export personal data from > the coutries to acentral database and that this should therefore stopped > very soon. If the data is stored locally everybody can impose individually > there dataprotection laws. Nevertheless there should be a central > entrypoint to look for domain-data and therefore we support the RIPE > referal mechanism and are looking together with other ccTLDs and the db-wg > from RIPE at solutions like using the SRV-RR for whois-queries (see > rfc2782 for a documentation) > > Solution > > So as I pointed out above there was no other solution than to migrate the > domainobjects to a DENIC based domainquery mechanism. People who followed > the discussion know that DENIC is on there way out of RIPE. Actually it > was a dicission made by the RIPE db-wg in Amsterdam (February?) that there > should be no domainobject in the database after June 30th. > > Why do we publish less data than RIPE does? > > I have tried to explain it also above due to German dataprotection laws we > are allowed to publish only "necessary data" without formal agreement with > the applicant. > > Whats necessary concerning a domainname? > > We agreed with the people from the dataprotection office that there is no > necessity to no more about a admin-c of the domain than his address > because if you need for legal issues to come in contact with him thats the > only thing you need. > > Concerning the tech-c and the zone-c he finally agreed that there is a > necessity due to technical urgencies to publish phone and email-addresses > and so we will implement this very soon. > > I hope I have help you a little bit in understanding our position. I am > really sorry that due to this discussion I get the feeling that people > felt we are doing things without thinking or good reasons or just to make > them angry. I hope you see there are - as usual - two sides of a medal and > you see know the other side a little bit better, > > Regards Sabine > > > On 30.06.00 09:39 henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I'm sorry for that, received a mail in german and replied.... > > once again in english: > > > > I'd like to see a common procedure against the behaviour od DENIC. > > There are lot's of problems with the DENIC's solution, and if you think > on > > the past working of DENIC, you would really wish that there are no > domain > > or person or role-objects in a database controlled by them.... > > The current solution by RIPE (for the Handles) works great. Most of us > > developed tools, webinterfaces, mailrobos and so on to deal with the > > procedure of creating, updating and deleting RIPE-Handles. All of us > could > > live with a change of the email-adress to send the requests to, but not > > with totally new formats and and totally different concepts. It would be > a > > good idea for DENIC to take the (really great working) RIPE-solution. > > The manner aof DENICs working now is inacceptable. Anybody making > > whois-querys with one of the uncountable webinterfaces gets the cripled > > contact data displayed. How the not with blindness strucked of us have > > seen, there is lots of data missing in the persons:s and role:s-data: > > remarks, mnt-by, phone, fax, trouble, notify, changed and (for the > role:s) > > admin-c and tech-c. On Example: in our role-handle (compare whois -h > > whois.denic.de NOC54-RIPE against whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE) > is > > described how to make updates and who to cantact for whatever. This info > is > > now missing. Remember: this (in DENICs words "non-operational data" or > > "just a test") criple data is displayed whenever you query a german > domain! > > The most people won't hav the idea to query whois.denic.de for the > domain > > and then whois.ripe.net for the person:s and role:s, and I'm sure that > even > > no webinterface to whois does so. This means tons of senseless work for > us! > > It is really inacceptable insolence by DENIC to take data out of the > > RIPE-Database, changing it and then publishing it! With RIPE this is > > inconceivablily, have a look at their policy. I'm not sure if this is > not > > against german or europeen laws, but I'm not a lawyer. If I think of the > > future, all domain:s, person:s and role:s at DENICs database... beam me > > back a few years, please. > > Putting the domain:s in DENICs own database is acceptable. There is no > > really change for us (ok, I had to add two exra lines to our > > whois-webinterface's code...), because we register Domains through DENIC > or > > resellers (most of us are not members of DENIC because this is really > > expensive, so we are depend on resellers). With person:s and > > role:s-objects, surely all of us are working directly with the > > RIPE-Database. It is inacccetable if changes will only be possible by > > DENIC's members. This means weeks or eve months of handwork for us. Then > > the resellers will complete their (mail-)interfaces for changing , and > > parallel tio doing lots of work by hand we have to completely redevelop > our > > tools, webinterfaces, mailrobos and so on!!! > > > > This can not be the way to our future. > > > > Let's join to make DENIC know that this is inacceptable. Contact your > DENIC > > reseller and tell them what you think about this. They control DENICs > > board... > > > > Greetings from Germany > > > > Henning Brauer > > Hostmaster BSWS > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > BS Web Services > > Roedingsmarkt 14 > > 20459 Hamburg > > Germany > > > > info(a)bsmail.de > > www.bsws.de > > > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > > > > > Robert > > Martin-Legène To: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de > > <robert@martin- cc: > > legene.dk> Subject: Re: AW: AW: > Deletion > of > > .de domain objects > > Sent by: > > r(a)jenslyn.nisse > > .dk > > > > > > 30.06.00 05:49 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hallo. > > > > This is a list in English. > > > > What did you write? > > > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de wrote: > > > > > > > > Ein gemeinsames Vorgehen gegen dieses Vorgehen des DENIC sähe ich sehr > > sehr > > > gerne. > > > Es ergeben sich zig Probleme aus der DENIC-Lösung, und wenn ich so an > die > > > Bearbeitungszeiten denke... > > > Die Lösung mit den RIPE-Handles funktioniert wunderbar. Die meisten > von > > uns > > > haben Werkzeuge/Webinterfaces/Mailrobos/.... entwickelt, um damit zu > > > Arbeiten. Mit einer Änderung der eMail-Adresse und einer Abfrage > > > DENIC-oder-nicht können wir wohl alle leben, mit völlig neuen Formaten > > und > > > Vorgehensweise zum Updaten/Anlegen von RIPE (oder dann DENIC)-Handles > > > nicht. Das DENIC wäre gut beraten, die RIPE-Lösung zu übernehmen. > > > Die Art und Weise, mit der DENIC hier vorgeht, finde ich > > unverantwortlich. > > > Jeder, der jetzt Abfragen über eins der zahllosen Webinterfaces für > whois > > > macht (oder gar selbst whois kennt ;-)) kriegt jetzt die DENIC-(test? > > > -)Handles angezeigt. In unserem Rollenhandle ist unter anderem klar > > > beschrieben, was für Updates etc. zu tun ist und wer für was zu > > > kontaktieren ist. Kommen diese Infos jetzt nicht mehr, laufen wieder > > alle, > > > zum Teil unnützen, Anfragen irgendwo zentral auf und verursachen > > > unnötigerweise zusätzliche Arbeit. Und das das DENIC ohne Zustimmung > der > > > Betroffenen Daten derselben ändert und Infos rausfallen lässt, ist > eine > > > bodenlose Frechheit. Beim RIPE ist das durch deren Policy ganz klar > > > ausgeschlossen. Wenn ich die vergangene und vor allem jetztige > > Arbeitsweise > > > des DENIC sehe, wird mir ganz anders bei dem Gedanken daran, das alle > > > Domain und vor allem Personenrecords bei denen in der Datenbank > liegen. > > Bei > > > den Domainrecords ist das aktzeptabel, da sich an der Arbeitsweise für > > uns > > > nichts ändert - registrieren, update usw tun wir eh übers DENIC oder > > deren > > > Reseller. Bei den Person- und Role-Records arbeiten wir wohl alle > direct > > > auf die RIPE-Datenbank, und da ist es nicht akzeptabel wenn plötzlich > > alle > > > Änderungen nur noch über DENIC-Mitglieder möglich sind - für uns als > > > nicht-Mitglied also nur über nen Reseller. Bis die dann soweit sind > und > > > eine automatisierbare Möglichkeit zum Anlegen/Updaten usw. von > > > Persons/Roles geschaffen haben, geht sicherlich noch einige Zeit ins > > Land, > > > und dann wird es da wohl auch auf ein völlig neues Format rauslaufen. > > Folge > > > also? Wir müssen erstmal Wochen- oder gar Monatelang Handles per Hand > > > bearbeiten und dann auch noch parallel (wenn die Reseller soweit sind) > > > unsere Robos umbauen... nein danke. > > > > > > Gruss > > > > > > Henning Brauer > > > Hostmaster BSWS > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > BS Web Services > > > Roedingsmarkt 14 > > > 20459 Hamburg > > > Germany > > > > > > info(a)bsmail.de > > > www.bsws.de > > > > > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > > > > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > > > > > > > > > "NCC Network > > > Coordination To: > > <henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de> > > > Center" cc: <owner-loca-ir(a)ripe.net> > > > <ncc@mediasca Subject: AW: AW: Deletion > of > > .de domain objects > > > pe.de> > > > > > > 29.06.00 > > > 18:04 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wie wärs mit einem gemeinschaftlichen Complaint ans DENIC? > > > Einige an der Diskussion beteiligte Leute bemerkerten ja auch schon, > > > das es weder statthaft noch logisch sei, seitens der DENIC > Maintainerlose > > > Objekte mit einem DENIC-P Maintainer zu versehen. > > > Die nun bei einer Abrage des denics4 gezeigten Objekte enthalten ja, > wie > > > unten schon bemerkt, gar keinen Maintainer. > > > Wenn dieser Datenbestand nun doch Tatsache ist oder wird, dann... au > > weia. > > > In der Diskussion wurde ja auch schon darüber gemutmasst, dass > > > wahrscheinlich auch wieder nur DENIC Mitglieder überhaupt Änderungen > > > vornehmen können und das ist dann wahrhaftig grauselig. > > > > > > MfG > > > Martin Ahrens > > > > > > Mediascape Hostmasters > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > > Von: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de [mailto:henning.brauer@bsmail.de] > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 17:40 > > > An: NCC Network Coordination Center > > > Betreff: Re: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects > > > > > > > > > > > > Kann ich nur hoffen. > > > Wie andere in der Liste (mit weniger Tomaten auf den Augen) schon > bemerkt > > > haben, fehlen auch die mnt-by's, notifys, phone, und diverser anderer > > Kram. > > > > > > Gruss > > > > > > Henning Brauer > > > Hostmaster BSWS > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > BS Web Services > > > Roedingsmarkt 14 > > > 20459 Hamburg > > > Germany > > > > > > info(a)bsmail.de > > > www.bsws.de > > > > > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > > > > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > > > > > > > > > "NCC Network > > > Coordination To: > > <henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de> > > > Center" cc: > > > <ncc@mediasca Subject: AW: Deletion of > .de > > > domain objects > > > pe.de> > > > > > > 29.06.00 > > > 16:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hallo, > > > > > > was Sie (w.u.) bemerkten, ist mir auch schon aufgefallen. DENIC hat > Daten > > > aus Person und Role Objekten des Ripe NCC offenbar in gekürzter Form > > > übernommen. Allerdings sind alle Objekte mit > > > > > > changed: test(a)nowhere.denic.de 2000MMDD > > > > > > versehen. Handelt es sich hier ggf. noch um eine Testvariante der > > > Übernahme? > > > > > > MfG > > > Martin Ahrens > > > > > > Mediascape Hostmasters > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > > Von: owner-local-ir(a)ripe.net [mailto:owner-local-ir@ripe.net]Im > Auftrag > > > von henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 13:23 > > > An: lir-wg(a)ripe.net; db-wg(a)ripe.net; local-ir(a)ripe.net > > > Betreff: Re: Deletion of .de domain objects > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I just queryed our own main domain and have seen that the person and > > roles > > > had also "DENIC" as source. > > > But really more interesting: WHERE ARE THE REMARK:s???? > > > try whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE and whois -h whois.denic.de > > > NOC54-RIPE. > > > > > > Greetings from Germany > > > > > > Henning Brauer > > > Hostmaster BSWS > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > BS Web Services > > > Roedingsmarkt 14 > > > 20459 Hamburg > > > Germany > > > > > > info(a)bsmail.de > > > www.bsws.de > > > > > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > > > > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > > > > > > > > > RIPE Database > > > Administratio To: lir-wg(a)ripe.net, > > > db-wg(a)ripe.net, local-ir(a)ripe.net > > > n cc: > > > <ripe-dbm@rip Subject: Deletion of .de > > > domain > > > objects > > > e.net> > > > Sent by: > > > owner-lir-wg@ > > > ripe.net > > > > > > > > > 29.06.00 > > > 12:45 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > > Dear Colleauges, > > > > > > We are happy to announce that we have successfully completed > > > the first phase of migrating .de domain objects and related objects > > > to DENIC's own whois database. Now there are no .de domain objects > > > in RIPE whois database except for the top level one. > > > > > > Normal operation of our database has been resumed at 9:30am, Central > > > European Summer Time. > > > > > > If you have any question, please reply to ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net. > > > > > > -- > > > Filippo Portera > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Robert Martin-Legene > > > > > > > > > > > Sabine Dolderer > DENIC eG > Wiesenhüttenplatz 26 > D-60329 Frankfurt > > eMail: Sabine.Dolderer(a)denic.de > Fon: +49 69 27235 0 > Fax: +49 69 27235 235 > > > > Sabine Dolderer DENIC eG Wiesenhüttenplatz 26 D-60329 Frankfurt eMail: Sabine.Dolderer(a)denic.de Fon: +49 69 27235 0 Fax: +49 69 27235 235

2 1

Re: Deletion of .de domain objects
by henning.brauer＠bsmail.de 30 Jun '00

30 Jun '00

Hi, I just queryed our own main domain and have seen that the person and roles had also "DENIC" as source. But really more interesting: WHERE ARE THE REMARK:s???? try whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE and whois -h whois.denic.de NOC54-RIPE. Greetings from Germany Henning Brauer Hostmaster BSWS ------------------------------------------------ BS Web Services Roedingsmarkt 14 20459 Hamburg Germany info(a)bsmail.de www.bsws.de fon: +49 40 3750357-0 fax: +49 40 3750357-5 PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE RIPE Database Administratio To: lir-wg(a)ripe.net, db-wg(a)ripe.net, local-ir(a)ripe.net n cc: <ripe-dbm@rip Subject: Deletion of .de domain objects e.net> Sent by: owner-lir-wg@ ripe.net 29.06.00 12:45 -------- Dear Colleauges, We are happy to announce that we have successfully completed the first phase of migrating .de domain objects and related objects to DENIC's own whois database. Now there are no .de domain objects in RIPE whois database except for the top level one. Normal operation of our database has been resumed at 9:30am, Central European Summer Time. If you have any question, please reply to ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net. -- Filippo Portera

17 23

NEW MAILINGLIST for .de-issues !!
by Sabine Dolderer/Denic 30 Jun '00

30 Jun '00

Hello this is my very last mail (for now ;-) ) for things concerning DE-domains as I think (and it was told me) that the list was bothered to much. Further discussion could and should take place on the list public-l(a)denic.de You can subscribe to that list in simply sending an email to majordomo(a)denic.de with subscribe public-l in the body. You will then get a confirmation back which you have to send back again. I hope that this list will be a platform for the community to get in contact and discuss their issues with us. The prefered language on that list should be German. Regards Sabine Sabine Dolderer DENIC eG Wiesenhüttenplatz 26 D-60329 Frankfurt eMail: Sabine.Dolderer(a)denic.de Fon: +49 69 27235 0 Fax: +49 69 27235 235

1 0

petition against DENIC's plans
by henning.brauer＠bsmail.de 30 Jun '00

30 Jun '00

Hi all, I've setup a quick and dirty Website to vote against DENIC's plans. Please sign: http://denicpetition.bsws.de I just copied my mails regarding this, so if there is anybody out to rewrite the text... please send them to hostmaster(a)bsws.de. Greetings from Germany Henning Brauer Hostmaster BSWS ------------------------------------------------ BS Web Services Roedingsmarkt 14 20459 Hamburg Germany info(a)bsmail.de www.bsws.de fon: +49 40 3750357-0 fax: +49 40 3750357-5 PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE

3 2

Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects
by henning.brauer＠bsmail.de 30 Jun '00

30 Jun '00

Sorry for the German mail, i explained this before (got a german mail an just replied). Once again: We are not against moving domain-objects out of the Ripe-Db, we could even live with the persons and roles in a DENIC-Database. But the way DENIC is doing the move, wirh cripled testing data in production, is not acceptable. The plan to let only members do changes is not acceptable. Nobody would say anything against moving all the stuff to the DENIC db if the interfaces won't change too much. The way this is done now means really hard life for small providers in the future and tons of work (senseless work) now. Greetings Henning Brauer Hostmaster BSWS ------------------------------------------------ BS Web Services Roedingsmarkt 14 20459 Hamburg Germany info(a)bsmail.de www.bsws.de fon: +49 40 3750357-0 fax: +49 40 3750357-5 PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE Nils Jeppe <nils(a)work.de To: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de > cc: NCC Network Coordination Center <ncc(a)mediascape.de>, owner-loca-ir(a)ripe.net, lir-wg(a)ripe.net, info(a)denic.de 30.06.00 Subject: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects 11:15 Hello Henning, First of all you REALLY ought to use ENGLISH on the RIPE Mailing lists. Not everybody speaks German, you know? Second of all, the plan to move .de Domains has been discussed on ripe meetings etc. You could have gone there and voiced your concerns. Third of all, .de Domain objects have nothing to do in the RIPE Database. RIPE isn't about Domains. And last but not least, so what if you have to change your robots? That's life and sooner or later you'd have to do it anyway. Your rant about person objects is totally invalid since so far, only the Domain objects have been moved and you have plenty of time to accomodate the changes necessary for Person objects. Best wishes, Nils On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de wrote: > > Ein gemeinsames Vorgehen gegen dieses Vorgehen des DENIC sähe ich sehr sehr > gerne. > Es ergeben sich zig Probleme aus der DENIC-Lösung, und wenn ich so an die > Bearbeitungszeiten denke... > Die Lösung mit den RIPE-Handles funktioniert wunderbar. Die meisten von uns > haben Werkzeuge/Webinterfaces/Mailrobos/.... entwickelt, um damit zu > Arbeiten. Mit einer Änderung der eMail-Adresse und einer Abfrage > DENIC-oder-nicht können wir wohl alle leben, mit völlig neuen Formaten und > Vorgehensweise zum Updaten/Anlegen von RIPE (oder dann DENIC)-Handles > nicht. Das DENIC wäre gut beraten, die RIPE-Lösung zu übernehmen. > Die Art und Weise, mit der DENIC hier vorgeht, finde ich unverantwortlich. > Jeder, der jetzt Abfragen über eins der zahllosen Webinterfaces für whois > macht (oder gar selbst whois kennt ;-)) kriegt jetzt die DENIC-(test? > -)Handles angezeigt. In unserem Rollenhandle ist unter anderem klar > beschrieben, was für Updates etc. zu tun ist und wer für was zu > kontaktieren ist. Kommen diese Infos jetzt nicht mehr, laufen wieder alle, > zum Teil unnützen, Anfragen irgendwo zentral auf und verursachen > unnötigerweise zusätzliche Arbeit. Und das das DENIC ohne Zustimmung der > Betroffenen Daten derselben ändert und Infos rausfallen lässt, ist eine > bodenlose Frechheit. Beim RIPE ist das durch deren Policy ganz klar > ausgeschlossen. Wenn ich die vergangene und vor allem jetztige Arbeitsweise > des DENIC sehe, wird mir ganz anders bei dem Gedanken daran, das alle > Domain und vor allem Personenrecords bei denen in der Datenbank liegen. Bei > den Domainrecords ist das aktzeptabel, da sich an der Arbeitsweise für uns > nichts ändert - registrieren, update usw tun wir eh übers DENIC oder deren > Reseller. Bei den Person- und Role-Records arbeiten wir wohl alle direct > auf die RIPE-Datenbank, und da ist es nicht akzeptabel wenn plötzlich alle > Änderungen nur noch über DENIC-Mitglieder möglich sind - für uns als > nicht-Mitglied also nur über nen Reseller. Bis die dann soweit sind und > eine automatisierbare Möglichkeit zum Anlegen/Updaten usw. von > Persons/Roles geschaffen haben, geht sicherlich noch einige Zeit ins Land, > und dann wird es da wohl auch auf ein völlig neues Format rauslaufen. Folge > also? Wir müssen erstmal Wochen- oder gar Monatelang Handles per Hand > bearbeiten und dann auch noch parallel (wenn die Reseller soweit sind) > unsere Robos umbauen... nein danke. > > Gruss > > Henning Brauer > Hostmaster BSWS > > ------------------------------------------------ > BS Web Services > Roedingsmarkt 14 > 20459 Hamburg > Germany > > info(a)bsmail.de > www.bsws.de > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > "NCC Network > Coordination To: <henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de> > Center" cc: <owner-loca-ir(a)ripe.net> > <ncc@mediasca Subject: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects > pe.de> > > 29.06.00 > 18:04 > > > > > > > Wie wärs mit einem gemeinschaftlichen Complaint ans DENIC? > Einige an der Diskussion beteiligte Leute bemerkerten ja auch schon, > das es weder statthaft noch logisch sei, seitens der DENIC Maintainerlose > Objekte mit einem DENIC-P Maintainer zu versehen. > Die nun bei einer Abrage des denics4 gezeigten Objekte enthalten ja, wie > unten schon bemerkt, gar keinen Maintainer. > Wenn dieser Datenbestand nun doch Tatsache ist oder wird, dann... au weia. > In der Diskussion wurde ja auch schon darüber gemutmasst, dass > wahrscheinlich auch wieder nur DENIC Mitglieder überhaupt Änderungen > vornehmen können und das ist dann wahrhaftig grauselig. > > MfG > Martin Ahrens > > Mediascape Hostmasters > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de [mailto:henning.brauer@bsmail.de] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 17:40 > An: NCC Network Coordination Center > Betreff: Re: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects > > > > Kann ich nur hoffen. > Wie andere in der Liste (mit weniger Tomaten auf den Augen) schon bemerkt > haben, fehlen auch die mnt-by's, notifys, phone, und diverser anderer Kram. > > Gruss > > Henning Brauer > Hostmaster BSWS > ------------------------------------------------ > BS Web Services > Roedingsmarkt 14 > 20459 Hamburg > Germany > > info(a)bsmail.de > www.bsws.de > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > "NCC Network > Coordination To: <henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de> > Center" cc: > <ncc@mediasca Subject: AW: Deletion of .de > domain objects > pe.de> > > 29.06.00 > 16:00 > > > > > > > Hallo, > > was Sie (w.u.) bemerkten, ist mir auch schon aufgefallen. DENIC hat Daten > aus Person und Role Objekten des Ripe NCC offenbar in gekürzter Form > übernommen. Allerdings sind alle Objekte mit > > changed: test(a)nowhere.denic.de 2000MMDD > > versehen. Handelt es sich hier ggf. noch um eine Testvariante der > Übernahme? > > MfG > Martin Ahrens > > Mediascape Hostmasters > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: owner-local-ir(a)ripe.net [mailto:owner-local-ir@ripe.net]Im Auftrag > von henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 13:23 > An: lir-wg(a)ripe.net; db-wg(a)ripe.net; local-ir(a)ripe.net > Betreff: Re: Deletion of .de domain objects > > > > Hi, > > I just queryed our own main domain and have seen that the person and roles > had also "DENIC" as source. > But really more interesting: WHERE ARE THE REMARK:s???? > try whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE and whois -h whois.denic.de > NOC54-RIPE. > > Greetings from Germany > > Henning Brauer > Hostmaster BSWS > ------------------------------------------------ > BS Web Services > Roedingsmarkt 14 > 20459 Hamburg > Germany > > info(a)bsmail.de > www.bsws.de > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > RIPE Database > Administratio To: lir-wg(a)ripe.net, > db-wg(a)ripe.net, local-ir(a)ripe.net > n cc: > <ripe-dbm@rip Subject: Deletion of .de > domain > objects > e.net> > Sent by: > owner-lir-wg@ > ripe.net > > > 29.06.00 > 12:45 > > > > > > > > -------- > Dear Colleauges, > > We are happy to announce that we have successfully completed > the first phase of migrating .de domain objects and related objects > to DENIC's own whois database. Now there are no .de domain objects > in RIPE whois database except for the top level one. > > Normal operation of our database has been resumed at 9:30am, Central > European Summer Time. > > If you have any question, please reply to ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net. > > -- > Filippo Portera > > > > > > > > > > > > - ----------------------------------------------------------------- - n@work Internet Informationssysteme GmbH Tel +49 40 23880900 Spaldingstrasse 160d Fax +49 40 23880929 20097 Hamburg, Germany http://www.work.de/

3 3

Antwort: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects
by Sabine Dolderer/Denic 30 Jun '00

30 Jun '00

Hello, speaking for DENIC ;-). I will try to comment about the reasons why we have (or even must) done the migration. First of all I want to try to summarize the problems we are faced in the past and then I will come to an explanation of the solution we choose. Problems: There were a lot of discussions in the past about domain-objects in the RIPE-database and that they cause too much capacity for RIPE to maintain their database for this amount of objects. There was a common understanding that RIPE is not a service provider for domainregistries like ccTLDs but there were indeed suggestions to offer or assist us in this kind of service. There were a lot of pressure from our dataprotection office that due to our business we pubish data (or we urge provider to puplish data of their customers) which is not allowed to publish under German data protection laws. Mainly the existence of the inverse query feature and the publishing of data like phone-, faxnumbers and email addresses was critisized. We have had also a lot of discussions about the issue with other ccTLDs and with people from the EU commission. The fundamental outcome of these discussion was that there is no real issue to export personal data from the coutries to acentral database and that this should therefore stopped very soon. If the data is stored locally everybody can impose individually there dataprotection laws. Nevertheless there should be a central entrypoint to look for domain-data and therefore we support the RIPE referal mechanism and are looking together with other ccTLDs and the db-wg from RIPE at solutions like using the SRV-RR for whois-queries (see rfc2782 for a documentation) Solution So as I pointed out above there was no other solution than to migrate the domainobjects to a DENIC based domainquery mechanism. People who followed the discussion know that DENIC is on there way out of RIPE. Actually it was a dicission made by the RIPE db-wg in Amsterdam (February?) that there should be no domainobject in the database after June 30th. Why do we publish less data than RIPE does? I have tried to explain it also above due to German dataprotection laws we are allowed to publish only "necessary data" without formal agreement with the applicant. Whats necessary concerning a domainname? We agreed with the people from the dataprotection office that there is no necessity to no more about a admin-c of the domain than his address because if you need for legal issues to come in contact with him thats the only thing you need. Concerning the tech-c and the zone-c he finally agreed that there is a necessity due to technical urgencies to publish phone and email-addresses and so we will implement this very soon. I hope I have help you a little bit in understanding our position. I am really sorry that due to this discussion I get the feeling that people felt we are doing things without thinking or good reasons or just to make them angry. I hope you see there are - as usual - two sides of a medal and you see know the other side a little bit better, Regards Sabine On 30.06.00 09:39 henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de wrote: > > > Hi, > > I'm sorry for that, received a mail in german and replied.... > once again in english: > > I'd like to see a common procedure against the behaviour od DENIC. > There are lot's of problems with the DENIC's solution, and if you think on > the past working of DENIC, you would really wish that there are no domain > or person or role-objects in a database controlled by them.... > The current solution by RIPE (for the Handles) works great. Most of us > developed tools, webinterfaces, mailrobos and so on to deal with the > procedure of creating, updating and deleting RIPE-Handles. All of us could > live with a change of the email-adress to send the requests to, but not > with totally new formats and and totally different concepts. It would be a > good idea for DENIC to take the (really great working) RIPE-solution. > The manner aof DENICs working now is inacceptable. Anybody making > whois-querys with one of the uncountable webinterfaces gets the cripled > contact data displayed. How the not with blindness strucked of us have > seen, there is lots of data missing in the persons:s and role:s-data: > remarks, mnt-by, phone, fax, trouble, notify, changed and (for the role:s) > admin-c and tech-c. On Example: in our role-handle (compare whois -h > whois.denic.de NOC54-RIPE against whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE) is > described how to make updates and who to cantact for whatever. This info is > now missing. Remember: this (in DENICs words "non-operational data" or > "just a test") criple data is displayed whenever you query a german domain! > The most people won't hav the idea to query whois.denic.de for the domain > and then whois.ripe.net for the person:s and role:s, and I'm sure that even > no webinterface to whois does so. This means tons of senseless work for us! > It is really inacceptable insolence by DENIC to take data out of the > RIPE-Database, changing it and then publishing it! With RIPE this is > inconceivablily, have a look at their policy. I'm not sure if this is not > against german or europeen laws, but I'm not a lawyer. If I think of the > future, all domain:s, person:s and role:s at DENICs database... beam me > back a few years, please. > Putting the domain:s in DENICs own database is acceptable. There is no > really change for us (ok, I had to add two exra lines to our > whois-webinterface's code...), because we register Domains through DENIC or > resellers (most of us are not members of DENIC because this is really > expensive, so we are depend on resellers). With person:s and > role:s-objects, surely all of us are working directly with the > RIPE-Database. It is inacccetable if changes will only be possible by > DENIC's members. This means weeks or eve months of handwork for us. Then > the resellers will complete their (mail-)interfaces for changing , and > parallel tio doing lots of work by hand we have to completely redevelop our > tools, webinterfaces, mailrobos and so on!!! > > This can not be the way to our future. > > Let's join to make DENIC know that this is inacceptable. Contact your DENIC > reseller and tell them what you think about this. They control DENICs > board... > > Greetings from Germany > > Henning Brauer > Hostmaster BSWS > > ------------------------------------------------ > BS Web Services > Roedingsmarkt 14 > 20459 Hamburg > Germany > > info(a)bsmail.de > www.bsws.de > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > Robert > Martin-Legène To: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de > <robert@martin- cc: > legene.dk> Subject: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of > .de domain objects > Sent by: > r(a)jenslyn.nisse > .dk > > > 30.06.00 05:49 > > > > > > > Hallo. > > This is a list in English. > > What did you write? > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de wrote: > > > > > Ein gemeinsames Vorgehen gegen dieses Vorgehen des DENIC sähe ich sehr > sehr > > gerne. > > Es ergeben sich zig Probleme aus der DENIC-Lösung, und wenn ich so an die > > Bearbeitungszeiten denke... > > Die Lösung mit den RIPE-Handles funktioniert wunderbar. Die meisten von > uns > > haben Werkzeuge/Webinterfaces/Mailrobos/.... entwickelt, um damit zu > > Arbeiten. Mit einer Änderung der eMail-Adresse und einer Abfrage > > DENIC-oder-nicht können wir wohl alle leben, mit völlig neuen Formaten > und > > Vorgehensweise zum Updaten/Anlegen von RIPE (oder dann DENIC)-Handles > > nicht. Das DENIC wäre gut beraten, die RIPE-Lösung zu übernehmen. > > Die Art und Weise, mit der DENIC hier vorgeht, finde ich > unverantwortlich. > > Jeder, der jetzt Abfragen über eins der zahllosen Webinterfaces für whois > > macht (oder gar selbst whois kennt ;-)) kriegt jetzt die DENIC-(test? > > -)Handles angezeigt. In unserem Rollenhandle ist unter anderem klar > > beschrieben, was für Updates etc. zu tun ist und wer für was zu > > kontaktieren ist. Kommen diese Infos jetzt nicht mehr, laufen wieder > alle, > > zum Teil unnützen, Anfragen irgendwo zentral auf und verursachen > > unnötigerweise zusätzliche Arbeit. Und das das DENIC ohne Zustimmung der > > Betroffenen Daten derselben ändert und Infos rausfallen lässt, ist eine > > bodenlose Frechheit. Beim RIPE ist das durch deren Policy ganz klar > > ausgeschlossen. Wenn ich die vergangene und vor allem jetztige > Arbeitsweise > > des DENIC sehe, wird mir ganz anders bei dem Gedanken daran, das alle > > Domain und vor allem Personenrecords bei denen in der Datenbank liegen. > Bei > > den Domainrecords ist das aktzeptabel, da sich an der Arbeitsweise für > uns > > nichts ändert - registrieren, update usw tun wir eh übers DENIC oder > deren > > Reseller. Bei den Person- und Role-Records arbeiten wir wohl alle direct > > auf die RIPE-Datenbank, und da ist es nicht akzeptabel wenn plötzlich > alle > > Änderungen nur noch über DENIC-Mitglieder möglich sind - für uns als > > nicht-Mitglied also nur über nen Reseller. Bis die dann soweit sind und > > eine automatisierbare Möglichkeit zum Anlegen/Updaten usw. von > > Persons/Roles geschaffen haben, geht sicherlich noch einige Zeit ins > Land, > > und dann wird es da wohl auch auf ein völlig neues Format rauslaufen. > Folge > > also? Wir müssen erstmal Wochen- oder gar Monatelang Handles per Hand > > bearbeiten und dann auch noch parallel (wenn die Reseller soweit sind) > > unsere Robos umbauen... nein danke. > > > > Gruss > > > > Henning Brauer > > Hostmaster BSWS > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > BS Web Services > > Roedingsmarkt 14 > > 20459 Hamburg > > Germany > > > > info(a)bsmail.de > > www.bsws.de > > > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > > > > > "NCC Network > > Coordination To: > <henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de> > > Center" cc: <owner-loca-ir(a)ripe.net> > > <ncc@mediasca Subject: AW: AW: Deletion of > .de domain objects > > pe.de> > > > > 29.06.00 > > 18:04 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wie wärs mit einem gemeinschaftlichen Complaint ans DENIC? > > Einige an der Diskussion beteiligte Leute bemerkerten ja auch schon, > > das es weder statthaft noch logisch sei, seitens der DENIC Maintainerlose > > Objekte mit einem DENIC-P Maintainer zu versehen. > > Die nun bei einer Abrage des denics4 gezeigten Objekte enthalten ja, wie > > unten schon bemerkt, gar keinen Maintainer. > > Wenn dieser Datenbestand nun doch Tatsache ist oder wird, dann... au > weia. > > In der Diskussion wurde ja auch schon darüber gemutmasst, dass > > wahrscheinlich auch wieder nur DENIC Mitglieder überhaupt Änderungen > > vornehmen können und das ist dann wahrhaftig grauselig. > > > > MfG > > Martin Ahrens > > > > Mediascape Hostmasters > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de [mailto:henning.brauer@bsmail.de] > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 17:40 > > An: NCC Network Coordination Center > > Betreff: Re: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects > > > > > > > > Kann ich nur hoffen. > > Wie andere in der Liste (mit weniger Tomaten auf den Augen) schon bemerkt > > haben, fehlen auch die mnt-by's, notifys, phone, und diverser anderer > Kram. > > > > Gruss > > > > Henning Brauer > > Hostmaster BSWS > > ------------------------------------------------ > > BS Web Services > > Roedingsmarkt 14 > > 20459 Hamburg > > Germany > > > > info(a)bsmail.de > > www.bsws.de > > > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > > > > > "NCC Network > > Coordination To: > <henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de> > > Center" cc: > > <ncc@mediasca Subject: AW: Deletion of .de > > domain objects > > pe.de> > > > > 29.06.00 > > 16:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hallo, > > > > was Sie (w.u.) bemerkten, ist mir auch schon aufgefallen. DENIC hat Daten > > aus Person und Role Objekten des Ripe NCC offenbar in gekürzter Form > > übernommen. Allerdings sind alle Objekte mit > > > > changed: test(a)nowhere.denic.de 2000MMDD > > > > versehen. Handelt es sich hier ggf. noch um eine Testvariante der > > Übernahme? > > > > MfG > > Martin Ahrens > > > > Mediascape Hostmasters > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: owner-local-ir(a)ripe.net [mailto:owner-local-ir@ripe.net]Im Auftrag > > von henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 13:23 > > An: lir-wg(a)ripe.net; db-wg(a)ripe.net; local-ir(a)ripe.net > > Betreff: Re: Deletion of .de domain objects > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I just queryed our own main domain and have seen that the person and > roles > > had also "DENIC" as source. > > But really more interesting: WHERE ARE THE REMARK:s???? > > try whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE and whois -h whois.denic.de > > NOC54-RIPE. > > > > Greetings from Germany > > > > Henning Brauer > > Hostmaster BSWS > > ------------------------------------------------ > > BS Web Services > > Roedingsmarkt 14 > > 20459 Hamburg > > Germany > > > > info(a)bsmail.de > > www.bsws.de > > > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > > > > > RIPE Database > > Administratio To: lir-wg(a)ripe.net, > > db-wg(a)ripe.net, local-ir(a)ripe.net > > n cc: > > <ripe-dbm@rip Subject: Deletion of .de > > domain > > objects > > e.net> > > Sent by: > > owner-lir-wg@ > > ripe.net > > > > > > 29.06.00 > > 12:45 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > Dear Colleauges, > > > > We are happy to announce that we have successfully completed > > the first phase of migrating .de domain objects and related objects > > to DENIC's own whois database. Now there are no .de domain objects > > in RIPE whois database except for the top level one. > > > > Normal operation of our database has been resumed at 9:30am, Central > > European Summer Time. > > > > If you have any question, please reply to ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net. > > > > -- > > Filippo Portera > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Robert Martin-Legene > > > > > Sabine Dolderer DENIC eG Wiesenhüttenplatz 26 D-60329 Frankfurt eMail: Sabine.Dolderer(a)denic.de Fon: +49 69 27235 0 Fax: +49 69 27235 235

5 4

QOS of whois.nic.de
by mediaWays Hostmaster 30 Jun '00

30 Jun '00

Wow! Good Quality of Service: > whois -h whois.nic.de dealtime.de Connection refused; server has reached maximum number of clients. ... Kind regards, _____________________________ Stephan Mankopf +49 5241 80 88729 stephan.mankopf(a)mediaways.net

1 0

Antwort: Re: Deletion of .de domain objects
by Sabine Dolderer/Denic 30 Jun '00

30 Jun '00

Hello Daniel, On 30.06.00 12:05 Daniel Roesen <noc(a)entire-systems.com> wrote: > > Dear Sabine, > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 10:39:51AM +0200, Sabine Dolderer/Denic wrote: > > speaking for DENIC ;-). I will try to comment about the reasons why we > > have (or even must) done the migration. > > Please explain why you remove the well-working maintainer scheme. We don't remove the maintainer scheme. What we have done is to protect every Person which hasn't a maintainer with our maintainer to prevent people from deleting unreferenced objects. As these updates (~100.000) was generated, a lot of people started to recognize that there was a problem and sends updates with their maintainer. If you understand the RIPE queueing model you will know that small updates are served faster from RIPE than the bigger ones to keep chances fair. Therefore people saw that we try to put our maintainer to their one day earlier updated persons. They don't see that these requests are send one week earlier not knowing about the maintainer. As these updates were maid accidentally this was corrected later. BtW. If somebody wants to change a DENIC-P maintainer whith his own one. This can be done either by the DENIC member he cooperated with (prefered ;-) ) or by hostmaster(a)denic.de. BUT: Please keep in mind - we will go completely out of the RIPE-DB there is no need to create own maintainers for the meantime. > > > There were a lot of pressure from our dataprotection office that due to > > our business we pubish data (or we urge provider to puplish data of their > > customers) which is not allowed to publish under German data protection > > laws. > > It is allowed. Every customer agreed that his information is published > in a public database. I want not to go too deeply in this discussion but believe me that it's not that easy. I still use these argumentation too hoping noone proofs it ;-). > > > Mainly the existence of the inverse query feature and the publishing > > of data like phone-, faxnumbers and email addresses was critisized. > > Regarding phone, fax and email addresses: with this logic even > phone books would be illegal. If you go for a telefon you are explicitely ask if you want to have additionally to the telefonline a phonebook entry. If you refuse you still get the line. > > > I am really sorry that due to this discussion I get the feeling > > that people felt we are doing things without thinking or good > > reasons or just to make them angry. > > Please explain why this was all negotiated behind closed doors > (RIPE-Meetings and hostmaster-l ARE closed doors) although it has > a wide impact on ALL domain customers and non-DENIC-members > (resellers). RIPE-Meetings are open to everybody. The minutes are published on the web. Why do you beleave they are closed? Maybe you can give me a hint where you think that these sort of discussions should take place. Best Regards Sabine > > > Best regards, > > Daniel Roesen > Entire Systems NOC > > -- > Entire Systems Network Operations Center noc(a)entire-systems.com > Entire Systems GmbH - Ferbachstrasse 12 - 56203 Hoehr-Grenzhausen, Germany > InterNIC-Handle: ES1238-ORG RIPE-Handle: ESN10-RIPE Tel: +49 2624 9550-55 > GnuPG/PGP Key-ID: 0xBF3C40C9 http://www.entire-systems.com/noc/noc-key.asc > GnuPG/PGP Fingerprint: 1F3F B675 1A38 D87C EB3C 6090 C6B9 DF48 BF3C 40C9 > Sabine Dolderer DENIC eG Wiesenhüttenplatz 26 D-60329 Frankfurt eMail: Sabine.Dolderer(a)denic.de Fon: +49 69 27235 0 Fax: +49 69 27235 235

1 0

Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects
by Sabine Dolderer/Denic 30 Jun '00

30 Jun '00

Hello, On 30.06.00 11:07 henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de wrote: > > > Hi, > > thats not really the point of our critics. > a) changes only be made by members???? as every DE-domainowner is our customer and we are responisble to him about the security of his domainname we must assure that changes are made in a verifyable and accountable way. It is important that there is a documented responsibility. > b) technical solution - RIPE's solutions are working really good, DENIC's > past solutions are poor no comment. > c) change in interfaces not acceptable changes in interfaces are sometimes necessary. But I am with you that this should happen very rarely and should be prepared very well and people should be informed very soon -- but we tried to make all this. > d) contact info's, especially phone and fax, are REALLY important for the > hostmasters to inform each other about technical probs. If this could be > against German's laws, just make these fields optional. we are only allowed to publish these things if the custoumer have signed that he allows the publishing. Currently we think that from nearly none of the persons in the RIPE-DB this allowence is there. For the future we plan to let the people the choice to publish these data. > e) putting so named "non-operational data" or "test data" which is > incomplete and partly incorrect in production systems (it IS in > productionis - just do an whoi-query...) is not acceptable sorry I don't understand these point. Maybe you can show me an example of these "test data". > f) plans making life for non-members harder -> DENIC tries to get more > payin' members???? As we are working on a costrecovery base (non-profit) more members don't means automatically more income. But surely are we are interested in organisations taking the responsibitlity and sharing the risk to run the German Registry as a self regulating body for the benefits of the German Internet Community. > g) plans to charge for person: and role: records? > h) to be continued... Regards Sabine > > pls see http://denicpetition.bsws.de > > Greetings from Germany > > Henning Brauer > Hostmaster BSWS > > ------------------------------------------------ > BS Web Services > Roedingsmarkt 14 > 20459 Hamburg > Germany > > info(a)bsmail.de > www.bsws.de > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > "Sabine > Dolderer/Deni To: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de > c" cc: db-wg(a)ripe.net, info(a)denic.de, > lir-wg(a)ripe.net, robert(a)martin-legene.dk > <dolderer@den Subject: Antwort: Re: AW: AW: > Deletion of .de domain objects > ic.de> > > 30.06.00 > 10:39 > > > > > > > Hello, > > speaking for DENIC ;-). I will try to comment about the reasons why we > have (or even must) done the migration. > > First of all I want to try to summarize the problems we are faced in the > past and then I will come to an explanation of the solution we choose. > > Problems: > > There were a lot of discussions in the past about domain-objects in the > RIPE-database and that they cause too much capacity for RIPE to maintain > their database for this amount of objects. > > There was a common understanding that RIPE is not a service provider for > domainregistries like ccTLDs but there were indeed suggestions to offer or > assist us in this kind of service. > > There were a lot of pressure from our dataprotection office that due to > our business we pubish data (or we urge provider to puplish data of their > customers) which is not allowed to publish under German data protection > laws. Mainly the existence of the inverse query feature and the publishing > of data like phone-, faxnumbers and email addresses was critisized. > > We have had also a lot of discussions about the issue with other ccTLDs > and with people from the EU commission. The fundamental outcome of these > discussion was that there is no real issue to export personal data from > the coutries to acentral database and that this should therefore stopped > very soon. If the data is stored locally everybody can impose individually > there dataprotection laws. Nevertheless there should be a central > entrypoint to look for domain-data and therefore we support the RIPE > referal mechanism and are looking together with other ccTLDs and the db-wg > from RIPE at solutions like using the SRV-RR for whois-queries (see > rfc2782 for a documentation) > > Solution > > So as I pointed out above there was no other solution than to migrate the > domainobjects to a DENIC based domainquery mechanism. People who followed > the discussion know that DENIC is on there way out of RIPE. Actually it > was a dicission made by the RIPE db-wg in Amsterdam (February?) that there > should be no domainobject in the database after June 30th. > > Why do we publish less data than RIPE does? > > I have tried to explain it also above due to German dataprotection laws we > are allowed to publish only "necessary data" without formal agreement with > the applicant. > > Whats necessary concerning a domainname? > > We agreed with the people from the dataprotection office that there is no > necessity to no more about a admin-c of the domain than his address > because if you need for legal issues to come in contact with him thats the > only thing you need. > > Concerning the tech-c and the zone-c he finally agreed that there is a > necessity due to technical urgencies to publish phone and email-addresses > and so we will implement this very soon. > > I hope I have help you a little bit in understanding our position. I am > really sorry that due to this discussion I get the feeling that people > felt we are doing things without thinking or good reasons or just to make > them angry. I hope you see there are - as usual - two sides of a medal and > you see know the other side a little bit better, > > Regards Sabine > > > On 30.06.00 09:39 henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I'm sorry for that, received a mail in german and replied.... > > once again in english: > > > > I'd like to see a common procedure against the behaviour od DENIC. > > There are lot's of problems with the DENIC's solution, and if you think > on > > the past working of DENIC, you would really wish that there are no > domain > > or person or role-objects in a database controlled by them.... > > The current solution by RIPE (for the Handles) works great. Most of us > > developed tools, webinterfaces, mailrobos and so on to deal with the > > procedure of creating, updating and deleting RIPE-Handles. All of us > could > > live with a change of the email-adress to send the requests to, but not > > with totally new formats and and totally different concepts. It would be > a > > good idea for DENIC to take the (really great working) RIPE-solution. > > The manner aof DENICs working now is inacceptable. Anybody making > > whois-querys with one of the uncountable webinterfaces gets the cripled > > contact data displayed. How the not with blindness strucked of us have > > seen, there is lots of data missing in the persons:s and role:s-data: > > remarks, mnt-by, phone, fax, trouble, notify, changed and (for the > role:s) > > admin-c and tech-c. On Example: in our role-handle (compare whois -h > > whois.denic.de NOC54-RIPE against whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE) > is > > described how to make updates and who to cantact for whatever. This info > is > > now missing. Remember: this (in DENICs words "non-operational data" or > > "just a test") criple data is displayed whenever you query a german > domain! > > The most people won't hav the idea to query whois.denic.de for the > domain > > and then whois.ripe.net for the person:s and role:s, and I'm sure that > even > > no webinterface to whois does so. This means tons of senseless work for > us! > > It is really inacceptable insolence by DENIC to take data out of the > > RIPE-Database, changing it and then publishing it! With RIPE this is > > inconceivablily, have a look at their policy. I'm not sure if this is > not > > against german or europeen laws, but I'm not a lawyer. If I think of the > > future, all domain:s, person:s and role:s at DENICs database... beam me > > back a few years, please. > > Putting the domain:s in DENICs own database is acceptable. There is no > > really change for us (ok, I had to add two exra lines to our > > whois-webinterface's code...), because we register Domains through DENIC > or > > resellers (most of us are not members of DENIC because this is really > > expensive, so we are depend on resellers). With person:s and > > role:s-objects, surely all of us are working directly with the > > RIPE-Database. It is inacccetable if changes will only be possible by > > DENIC's members. This means weeks or eve months of handwork for us. Then > > the resellers will complete their (mail-)interfaces for changing , and > > parallel tio doing lots of work by hand we have to completely redevelop > our > > tools, webinterfaces, mailrobos and so on!!! > > > > This can not be the way to our future. > > > > Let's join to make DENIC know that this is inacceptable. Contact your > DENIC > > reseller and tell them what you think about this. They control DENICs > > board... > > > > Greetings from Germany > > > > Henning Brauer > > Hostmaster BSWS > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > BS Web Services > > Roedingsmarkt 14 > > 20459 Hamburg > > Germany > > > > info(a)bsmail.de > > www.bsws.de > > > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > > > > > Robert > > Martin-Legène To: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de > > <robert@martin- cc: > > legene.dk> Subject: Re: AW: AW: > Deletion > of > > .de domain objects > > Sent by: > > r(a)jenslyn.nisse > > .dk > > > > > > 30.06.00 05:49 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hallo. > > > > This is a list in English. > > > > What did you write? > > > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de wrote: > > > > > > > > Ein gemeinsames Vorgehen gegen dieses Vorgehen des DENIC sähe ich sehr > > sehr > > > gerne. > > > Es ergeben sich zig Probleme aus der DENIC-Lösung, und wenn ich so an > die > > > Bearbeitungszeiten denke... > > > Die Lösung mit den RIPE-Handles funktioniert wunderbar. Die meisten > von > > uns > > > haben Werkzeuge/Webinterfaces/Mailrobos/.... entwickelt, um damit zu > > > Arbeiten. Mit einer Änderung der eMail-Adresse und einer Abfrage > > > DENIC-oder-nicht können wir wohl alle leben, mit völlig neuen Formaten > > und > > > Vorgehensweise zum Updaten/Anlegen von RIPE (oder dann DENIC)-Handles > > > nicht. Das DENIC wäre gut beraten, die RIPE-Lösung zu übernehmen. > > > Die Art und Weise, mit der DENIC hier vorgeht, finde ich > > unverantwortlich. > > > Jeder, der jetzt Abfragen über eins der zahllosen Webinterfaces für > whois > > > macht (oder gar selbst whois kennt ;-)) kriegt jetzt die DENIC-(test? > > > -)Handles angezeigt. In unserem Rollenhandle ist unter anderem klar > > > beschrieben, was für Updates etc. zu tun ist und wer für was zu > > > kontaktieren ist. Kommen diese Infos jetzt nicht mehr, laufen wieder > > alle, > > > zum Teil unnützen, Anfragen irgendwo zentral auf und verursachen > > > unnötigerweise zusätzliche Arbeit. Und das das DENIC ohne Zustimmung > der > > > Betroffenen Daten derselben ändert und Infos rausfallen lässt, ist > eine > > > bodenlose Frechheit. Beim RIPE ist das durch deren Policy ganz klar > > > ausgeschlossen. Wenn ich die vergangene und vor allem jetztige > > Arbeitsweise > > > des DENIC sehe, wird mir ganz anders bei dem Gedanken daran, das alle > > > Domain und vor allem Personenrecords bei denen in der Datenbank > liegen. > > Bei > > > den Domainrecords ist das aktzeptabel, da sich an der Arbeitsweise für > > uns > > > nichts ändert - registrieren, update usw tun wir eh übers DENIC oder > > deren > > > Reseller. Bei den Person- und Role-Records arbeiten wir wohl alle > direct > > > auf die RIPE-Datenbank, und da ist es nicht akzeptabel wenn plötzlich > > alle > > > Änderungen nur noch über DENIC-Mitglieder möglich sind - für uns als > > > nicht-Mitglied also nur über nen Reseller. Bis die dann soweit sind > und > > > eine automatisierbare Möglichkeit zum Anlegen/Updaten usw. von > > > Persons/Roles geschaffen haben, geht sicherlich noch einige Zeit ins > > Land, > > > und dann wird es da wohl auch auf ein völlig neues Format rauslaufen. > > Folge > > > also? Wir müssen erstmal Wochen- oder gar Monatelang Handles per Hand > > > bearbeiten und dann auch noch parallel (wenn die Reseller soweit sind) > > > unsere Robos umbauen... nein danke. > > > > > > Gruss > > > > > > Henning Brauer > > > Hostmaster BSWS > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > BS Web Services > > > Roedingsmarkt 14 > > > 20459 Hamburg > > > Germany > > > > > > info(a)bsmail.de > > > www.bsws.de > > > > > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > > > > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > > > > > > > > > "NCC Network > > > Coordination To: > > <henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de> > > > Center" cc: <owner-loca-ir(a)ripe.net> > > > <ncc@mediasca Subject: AW: AW: Deletion > of > > .de domain objects > > > pe.de> > > > > > > 29.06.00 > > > 18:04 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wie wärs mit einem gemeinschaftlichen Complaint ans DENIC? > > > Einige an der Diskussion beteiligte Leute bemerkerten ja auch schon, > > > das es weder statthaft noch logisch sei, seitens der DENIC > Maintainerlose > > > Objekte mit einem DENIC-P Maintainer zu versehen. > > > Die nun bei einer Abrage des denics4 gezeigten Objekte enthalten ja, > wie > > > unten schon bemerkt, gar keinen Maintainer. > > > Wenn dieser Datenbestand nun doch Tatsache ist oder wird, dann... au > > weia. > > > In der Diskussion wurde ja auch schon darüber gemutmasst, dass > > > wahrscheinlich auch wieder nur DENIC Mitglieder überhaupt Änderungen > > > vornehmen können und das ist dann wahrhaftig grauselig. > > > > > > MfG > > > Martin Ahrens > > > > > > Mediascape Hostmasters > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > > Von: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de [mailto:henning.brauer@bsmail.de] > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 17:40 > > > An: NCC Network Coordination Center > > > Betreff: Re: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects > > > > > > > > > > > > Kann ich nur hoffen. > > > Wie andere in der Liste (mit weniger Tomaten auf den Augen) schon > bemerkt > > > haben, fehlen auch die mnt-by's, notifys, phone, und diverser anderer > > Kram. > > > > > > Gruss > > > > > > Henning Brauer > > > Hostmaster BSWS > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > BS Web Services > > > Roedingsmarkt 14 > > > 20459 Hamburg > > > Germany > > > > > > info(a)bsmail.de > > > www.bsws.de > > > > > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > > > > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > > > > > > > > > "NCC Network > > > Coordination To: > > <henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de> > > > Center" cc: > > > <ncc@mediasca Subject: AW: Deletion of > .de > > > domain objects > > > pe.de> > > > > > > 29.06.00 > > > 16:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hallo, > > > > > > was Sie (w.u.) bemerkten, ist mir auch schon aufgefallen. DENIC hat > Daten > > > aus Person und Role Objekten des Ripe NCC offenbar in gekürzter Form > > > übernommen. Allerdings sind alle Objekte mit > > > > > > changed: test(a)nowhere.denic.de 2000MMDD > > > > > > versehen. Handelt es sich hier ggf. noch um eine Testvariante der > > > Übernahme? > > > > > > MfG > > > Martin Ahrens > > > > > > Mediascape Hostmasters > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > > Von: owner-local-ir(a)ripe.net [mailto:owner-local-ir@ripe.net]Im > Auftrag > > > von henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2000 13:23 > > > An: lir-wg(a)ripe.net; db-wg(a)ripe.net; local-ir(a)ripe.net > > > Betreff: Re: Deletion of .de domain objects > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I just queryed our own main domain and have seen that the person and > > roles > > > had also "DENIC" as source. > > > But really more interesting: WHERE ARE THE REMARK:s???? > > > try whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE and whois -h whois.denic.de > > > NOC54-RIPE. > > > > > > Greetings from Germany > > > > > > Henning Brauer > > > Hostmaster BSWS > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > BS Web Services > > > Roedingsmarkt 14 > > > 20459 Hamburg > > > Germany > > > > > > info(a)bsmail.de > > > www.bsws.de > > > > > > fon: +49 40 3750357-0 > > > fax: +49 40 3750357-5 > > > > > > PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE > > > > > > > > > > > > RIPE Database > > > Administratio To: lir-wg(a)ripe.net, > > > db-wg(a)ripe.net, local-ir(a)ripe.net > > > n cc: > > > <ripe-dbm@rip Subject: Deletion of .de > > > domain > > > objects > > > e.net> > > > Sent by: > > > owner-lir-wg@ > > > ripe.net > > > > > > > > > 29.06.00 > > > 12:45 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > > Dear Colleauges, > > > > > > We are happy to announce that we have successfully completed > > > the first phase of migrating .de domain objects and related objects > > > to DENIC's own whois database. Now there are no .de domain objects > > > in RIPE whois database except for the top level one. > > > > > > Normal operation of our database has been resumed at 9:30am, Central > > > European Summer Time. > > > > > > If you have any question, please reply to ripe-dbm(a)ripe.net. > > > > > > -- > > > Filippo Portera > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Robert Martin-Legene > > > > > > > > > > > Sabine Dolderer > DENIC eG > Wiesenhüttenplatz 26 > D-60329 Frankfurt > > eMail: Sabine.Dolderer(a)denic.de > Fon: +49 69 27235 0 > Fax: +49 69 27235 235 > > > > Sabine Dolderer DENIC eG Wiesenhüttenplatz 26 D-60329 Frankfurt eMail: Sabine.Dolderer(a)denic.de Fon: +49 69 27235 0 Fax: +49 69 27235 235

1 0

Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects
by henning.brauer＠bsmail.de 30 Jun '00

30 Jun '00

Hi, you'll see the crippled data if you would look at the person-a nd role-handles. Just comapre whois -h whois.ripe.net NOC54-RIPE with whois -h whois.denic.de NOC54-RIPE. The changes at the interface: i dont think of the whois-output here, what is important is the change in update/create/delete-procedure. Gruss Henning Brauer Hostmaster BSWS ------------------------------------------------ BS Web Services Roedingsmarkt 14 20459 Hamburg Germany info(a)bsmail.de www.bsws.de fon: +49 40 3750357-0 fax: +49 40 3750357-5 PLEASE USE EMAIL WHERE POSSIBLE Nils Jeppe <nils(a)work.de To: henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de > cc: info(a)denic.de, lir-wg(a)ripe.net, NCC Network Coordination Center <ncc(a)mediascape.de>, owner-loca-ir(a)ripe.net 30.06.00 Subject: Re: AW: AW: Deletion of .de domain objects 11:52 On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 henning.brauer(a)bsmail.de wrote: > Once again: We are not against moving domain-objects out of the Ripe-Db, we > could even live with the persons and roles in a DENIC-Database. That is your right, however, it won't change a thing. ;-) > But the way DENIC is doing the move, wirh cripled testing data in > production, is not acceptable. The plan to let only members do changes is > not acceptable. Where do you see crippled data in denic's db? Report it to them as a bug. When I look at our own main domain (work.de) the only thing I see is a pretty ugly "changed" line, but that is hardly critcal. > Nobody would say anything against moving all the stuff to the DENIC db if > the interfaces won't change too much. The interface didn't change a lot, the output of the whois db is pretty much the same as with ripe db. > The way this is done now means really hard life for small providers in the > future and tons of work (senseless work) now. I completely fail to see the problem. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- - n@work Internet Informationssysteme GmbH Tel +49 40 23880900 Spaldingstrasse 160d Fax +49 40 23880929 20097 Hamburg, Germany http://www.work.de/

2 1