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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by NCC Role Account 20 Feb '98

20 Feb '98

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by Sergey A. Mukhin 20 Feb '98

20 Feb '98

Greetings, >>>>> "I" == Igor Romanenko <igor(a)office.lucky.net> writes: I> To: hostmaster(a)taide.net I> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:15:23 +0200 (EET) I> Cc: Mike.Norris(a)heanet.ie, ncc(a)ripe.net, lir-wg(a)ripe.net >> > OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose >> > any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those >> > within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before >> > answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP >> > in APNIC stand for. >> > >> > Regards. >> > >> > Mike Norris >> >> Thanks Mike, it's a briliant remark! >> >> Excerpt from RIPE-167: >> >> If has been suggested more than once that the coun- >> tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from >> Europe that needed special regional support. I> Argh! Now you start to understand what RIPE-167 is really all about. IMHO that point was included just as a formal reason for creating yet another RIR. I never heard anything about making Ukraine or anybody else to be served by it against their will neither at that meeting nor in corresponding maillists. The only who spoke so were Ukrainian representatives. And what makes sense if Russia is situated in Asia as well as in Europe? It would sound a bit odd if we end up served half by RIPE and half by APNIC considering there are ISPs which serve clients in Vladivostok as well as in Moscow. I believe we definetely need a RIR and anybody who likes to work with it is welcome. >> >> Sounds with no pardon... A huge region is treated as Terra ******* (self >> censored) Incognita with savage population. I> It does not matter that much. I mean, I do not take this as an offense. >> >> FYI: CIS countries are Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Moldova, Armenia, >> Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan, Kirgyzstan, Uzbekistan,Tadjikistan, >> Turkmenistan. >> >> There is no denying the fact that part of them are in Europe or very >> close to it. I> Addition: "and tend to aim at becoming part of Europian community" >> >> IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language >> (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN). I> Which is not difference at all, granted that all CIS countries I> as well as Baltic ones have their own respective languages. I> Add the fact that technicians normally _do_ speak English well I> enough to make "language matters" of small importance even for Russian LIRs. For some people there is no difference. For some other there is a difference. I like that manner to speak for all. Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. Of course, that is possible to have Russian ( Kazakh, Tadjik, etc ) speaking people in RIPE office. Also it's possible to teach everybody concerned to speak English. And what would do people who cannot yet? Not to allow them to use Internet? And there _are_ technicians at least in Moscow and St. Petersbourg who does not know English enough to speak or write email. There are lots of people who can understand documents in English but not write something. Consider the difference between Europe and Russia ( and for that matter other CIS countries ) I> The other difference pointed out at Moscow meeting was payment I> in roubles which really does not make sense in other CIS or FSU countries. Well, maybe. Alas, there still are people and firms and ISP's which have no credit cards. And if the feature would be useful for some of them -- why to neglect it? >> >> If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking >> community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian >> speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like >> hostmaster-ru(a)ripe.net and so on), it seems essential that European LIRs >> might choose among the 2 European RIRs, but not vice versa, >> when some _authority_ will decide, that starting from day V. all LIRs >> in country CC will be served by appropriate RIR. I> And the results may well turn to be disastrous. During the Moscow meeting I> some things were made quite obvious I> 1. There will be no eternal alternative. There will be finite test I> period after which all LIRs should be served by only one RIR. If the service is good enough and LIRS agree to it. As far as the RIPE-167 authors thought there might be problems to be served by RIPE if the RIR is functioning. Nothing else. I> 2. After the test period the decision should be made by some kind of voting. I> At first it seems that the voting rules (as outlined in Moscow I> meeting's statement) are really democratic. The decision should be I> made "based on agreement of not less then 2/3 of registered LIRs, I> functioning on the territory of each of the countries served" I> (translation is mine, I can send you the text in Russian if you like). I> Now, the question is: does this mean 2/3 of _all_ the LIRs I> in _all_ countries served? Simple arithmetic will show you that I> if this was the intended meaning, Russian LIRs will _always_ I> outvote any other. BTW, this could be the case with all the other I> votings, decisions and the like. I> 3. The fact that representatives of some countries were absent I> during the Moscow meeting will be taken as the indication I> that LIRs in these countries "do not care" rather then "do not agree". I> Mr.Stesin had already pointed this out. Let me show you an example: I> at Moscow meeting there were 4 LIRs from Ukraine. _All_ of them I> voted against the statement. The result was: the statement had been I> adopted nevertheless. I> ... However there was a separate opinion of Ukraine in the final statement. Some time later Kazakhstan ISPs sent a message agreeing to that meeting resume. And nobody but Ukraine said a word against that yet. My (private) general impression of that meeting is: Ukraine does not want to be served by RIR in Russia under any circumstances. On the other hand nobody insisted on that and nobody is going to. There is good enough future for Internet developing in Russia and it would make sense to found RIR for it and the countries from ex-USSR who would like to join it. They all are independent and have all rights to choose. I> I've sent all my remarks w.r.t. Moscow meeting to Mr.Karrenberg and will I> resend them to the list if there will be some interest >> >> I hope that authors of the document are on the list and kindly >> invite them clearify the essence. I> Sorry, but are you that naive? I've told all this during the Moscow meeting. I> Can you guess the answers? >> Othervise we'll continue discussion about nothing. I> Sorry, no. The more LIRs will ask questions about RIPE-167, the more I> obvious it will become what it is really aimed at. The more obvious I> it will become that the idea of CIS-RIR or FSU-RIR or whatever it will I> be called, does not meet that much appreciation in CIS/FSU/... I> The more difficult it will be for Mr.Platonov to advocate CIS-RIR I> in it's current (proposed) form. Cf. 3 above. >> >> With best regards, >> >> Rimas Janusauskas >> >> >> >> I> Yours, I> -- I> Igor Romanenko @..@ I> Office: igor(a)lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) I> Home: igor(a)frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) I> http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " I> "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by amilutin 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

---------- > From: Sergey A. Mukhin <violet(a)rosnet.net> > To: stesin(a)gu.net > Cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM > > >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin <stesin(a)gu.net> writes: > A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) > A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" <violet(a)rosnet.net> > A> cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net > > A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > >> > >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) > > A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate > A> here? > > In no way. What about yours? > > Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. > > >> I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot > >> understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ? > > A> Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities > A> (as one can observe from the activities around the issue, > A> i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting). Probably you also? > > A> Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable > A> question here while asking what's wrong > A> with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a > A> show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?" > A> ("this" means the current state of things). > > A> Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach. Ok, > A> dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET > A> where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot > A> live being served by RIPE directly any more; > A> you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR) > A> to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow. > > A> Would you please mind explaining the reasons? > > Sorry for a bit late response. Rosnet can live and communicate > to either RIPE and Internic directly. And many others too. > And some would prefer be served in Moscow. > > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > Actually more full comments on the RIPE 167 were already > given by Alexey Platonov which is one of its authors. > > A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, > A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who > A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, > A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants > A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope > A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice > A> of where to be served from those countries. > > Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Let us try and see what will follow. > We did not mean to gather almost all and ask them move hands here > in Moscow. We told all about the whole thing; everybody interested coult > present at that meeting. The resume of it was sent to all and we are > awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this message. "Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs in other European countries. Here is the vote!" > > A> It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even > A> to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever > A> it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... > > A> My conclusion: > > A> * I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to > A> * be obsoleted. I'd also like a new edition, say ripe-167+ > A> * to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation > A> * removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship > A> * more representative than a single man from Moscow. Where > A> * is (so hyped) community, anyway? > > A> If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have > A> a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support > A> from the *representative* community, -- then who needs > A> all this show? If the scope of interest in a RIR is > A> limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National > A> Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care. > > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. > > >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. > > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > A> union are different things, aren't they? > > I meant benefits of uniting .(point) If you suppose uniting of > everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? > > Besides, I was not an author of RIPE 167 and anyway can have my > own opinion no matter if some documents exist anywhere or not. > > As for my letters hereabout -- that is my treatment of that a bit > vague general document plus a bit of common sense. Plus my point > of view, for that matter, and there are people sharing it with me. > > >> If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered > >> by the fact somebody else wants ? > > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you > point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is > a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by > definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. > > I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow > such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ). > > >> Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still > >> can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can > >> change history of the past we just have to take into consideration > >> the facts no matter if we like them or not. > > A> The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead. Do we need another > A> union, called "Russian Union", instead? Oh thanks... maybe > A> sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear > A> and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides... > A> if there will be any. But not now, please! > > Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. > And it's done ;-) (joke) > > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > > > Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or > later or never! That is your choice only. > > As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. > And we try it. > > And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does > not like it right now ( or even will never like it )? > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net > >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > A> Best regards, > A> Andrew Stesin > > A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > > Kind regards, > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by amilutin 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

---------- > From: Andrew Stesin <stesin(a)gu.net> > To: Sergey A. Mukhin <violet(a)rosnet.net> > Cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net; ncc(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 3:30 PM > > On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE > establish a RIR without an agreement in the community > of the region served? RIR creation should be > initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, > or am I missing something? > > > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > fSU is not a region. Please use non-political > but geographical terms for defining region borders. > > > A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, > > A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who > > A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, > > A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants > > A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope > > A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice > > A> of where to be served from those countries. > > > > Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? > > Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? > Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". > 1:1 Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs in other European countries. Here is the vote! > > > awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. > > ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its > main ideas in a moment. > > > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. > > I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain > at this point. > > > >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. > > > > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > > A> union are different things, aren't they? > > > > I meant benefits of uniting .(point) > > There are some benefits and some losses... > > > If you suppose uniting of > > everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? > > I don't like the idea of *any* union with *anyone* until > it will be though out carefully in all the details > and everything will be obvious, certain and clear. > > > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > > free choice for all. > > Would you mind pointing me at the written document where > one can get a clear and certain statement of this? > > > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > > Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian > language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you > ought to know English, point. If you don't know > English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff > is more knowlegeable. > I would suggest that the language problem should be removed at all as the irrelevant issue. Everybody knows, regardless of whatever they say, that the usage of English is inevitable. Apart from sending requests to the hostmaster(a)ripe.net every tech person at any LIR should maintain some objects in the database themselves using the auto-dbm(a)ripe.net. What language are you supposed to use when submiting requests to a database which, by the way, must be accessible and readable from anywhere in the World? > Agreed? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net > > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Best regards, > Andrew Stesin > > nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > >

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by Dmitri Bourkov 18 Feb '98

18 Feb '98

-----Original Message----- From: Andrew Stesin <stesin(a)gu.net> To: Sergey A. Mukhin <violet(a)rosnet.net> Cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net <lir-wg(a)ripe.net> Date: 18 tebp`k 1998 c. 17:03 Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting >On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even > to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever > it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... > Andrei, I don't like to continue discussion in such form. I see also that you don't want to say that you are afraid of your goverment, even you are afraid of discussion on these theme. I can understand your problems, but I can't agree, when you substituted arguments and problems. For example, you escaped to discuss alternative place for RIR in Kijev because your real opinion based on your experience with your postsoviet goverment that a single garantee for you - to be under RIPE coverage. Be honest and strong or I mistakened and I never heard such words from you and your friends. In such case, sorry guys... Regards, Dmitri

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet 18 Feb '98

18 Feb '98

>If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking >community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian >speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like >hostmaster-ru(a)ripe.net and so on), While it's probably a good idea to continue the RIPE NCC tradition of employing staff from different regions and with diverse linguistic background, I do *not* agree that "splitting" the RIPE NCC along the lines of language(s) is useful. Btw, this statement is not to be seen as specifically aiming at the Russian language! The very same point holds true for say German or French or Spanish. What we want to preserve across the whole Internet and in particular amongst the registries, is exchange of information, sharing of knowledge and harmonisation of procedures. In the Internet of today, we happen to use the English language for that purpose. (...discussing the reasons for that is probably outside the scope of this discussion :-). Wilfried. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber(a)CC.UniVie.ac.at Computer Center - ACOnet : Vienna University : Tel: +43 1 4277 - 140 33 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4277 - 9 140 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : RIPE-DB (&NIC) Handle: WW144 --------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by Sergey A. Mukhin 18 Feb '98

18 Feb '98

>>>>> "S" == Sergey Gulchuck <goo(a)botik.lucky.net> writes: S> To: lir-wg(a)ripe.net S> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:39:39 +0200 (EET) >> Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so >> many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ? Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered by the fact somebody else wants ? S> Soviet Union is history now for more than 6 (!) years. During this period S> there emerged new generation of people graduated from high schools etc. S> Let's make registry for "former Roma Empire", why not? S> We must look into future, not past. Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can change history of the past we just have to take into consideration the facts no matter if we like them or not. S> Regards, S> Sergey Gulchuck, S> ISP LuckyNet S> Kyiv, Ukraine -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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inetnum aggregation
by zsako＠banknet.net 17 Feb '98

17 Feb '98

Dear all, I happened to see a strange assignment made by a LIR to a customer. The strange thing about this was that it was made on the same day (by the same person), however contained 15 inetnums of a /24 each, although it could have been assigned as two inetnums only (two ranges of addresses). Although I feel it is quite clear from ripe-159 that each inetnum object should contain a *range* of addresses (and one should try to register only one inetnum for a request - which is BTW not always possible - but all examples are given in this sense), it would be good to state somewhere that aggregation _is_a_goal_ in case of the inetnum objects too. I came to this conclusion (that it is worth mentioning this) after the respective registrar, after I mentioned this problem to them, asked me whether it makes any difference if they aggregate or not... :( Regards, Janos

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None
by Igor Bronnikov 16 Feb '98

16 Feb '98

unsubscribe all

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by Sergey A. Mukhin 15 Feb '98

15 Feb '98

>>>>> "A" == Alex Wilansky <aw(a)eunet.ch> writes: A> To: violet(a)rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) A> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:54:21 +0100 (MET) A> Cc: edd(a)aic.net, hostmaster(a)taide.net, ncc(a)ripe.net, lir-wg(a)ripe.net, aw(a)eunet.ch (Alex Wilansky) >> Sergey A. Mukhin writes: >> >> Why Luxembourgers doesn't ask RIPE to be served in Leutzebuergesch?... >> >> Anyone from Grand Duchy? >> >> >> A> No, but as a Russian (albeit working in another country) I see no reason to not A> insist on English as the workinglanguage. It's the lingua franca for the A> internet, most operating syststems are based on some form of english A> shorthand for the commands, and frankly, at least up until theend of the A> communist era, there were more English language teachers per capita in A> Russia than there were in the U.S. (and most of them were better, too.....) >> >> Quite right, Alex. It is okay about Moscow, St Petersbourg and some other >> cities. And we are connecting other regions where it is not so. Think >> it would be better if people all over the world spoke the only language, >> but is it possible? Hope it would change ( English language in Russia and >> ex-USSR countries ) but God knows when. And things would run better if >> we have office speaking English to all the world and Russian to people >> which have not learned English good enough yet. >> >> A> Here in Switzerland, not matter what, you have to speak English in order to A> deal effectively with our verious clients and admnistrate a our part of a A> network which uses English as the de-facto language. Sure, we use German, A> French and Italian daily with our customers, but on the international admin A> level, English is it. No question, no argumaents. Granted, as a lingua A> franca English is relatively young, but I prefer it over Latin and Greek. A> Who knows what will emerge as the next international language but the end A> of the next century ( I suspect it will be Chinese), but it is not important. A> English is the administrative languag of the net, just as it is for aviation. A> So be it. Most people can quickly learn enough bad English to be understood A> and to understand, and, coming from Russian, I can't say the same for that A> deeply beautiful and nuanced language. To add to this point, while Russian A> is of course easier for a Moscow-base office, for the Russians, if it is A> admistrating the CIS or some version of slavic blocks, don't you think that A> many of the other slavic nations will be offended by being forced to use A> Russian. (In my dealings with the Poles recently, although they grudgingly A> permitted me to use Russian from time to time, they were truly appreciative A> by my refusal to do so, since I had no wish to offend them. Same for the A> Ukranians.) There are many sensitivities here.... English is more neutral........ A> Lots of good reasons to keep English in place... First, I am sorry if I did not express it clear. I meant just the mere fact a Moscow office would be useful for Russian speaking people who do not know English well enough yet. It will be at least bilingual, and I never thought of Russian as a replacement for English ( at least because it must be difficult enough to learn ). Russian and think some other languages would be just extra "features" of that office while traditional English will be in use where possible. On the other hand ( no matter if we want that or not ) most of people in FSU countries know their native language and Russian, not English and they will need some time for accomodation. Why not make things easier for them? A> Aleks -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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