February 1998 - lir-wg - mailman.ripe.net

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by Andrey Romanov 20 Feb '98

20 Feb '98

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by amilutin 20 Feb '98

20 Feb '98

---------- > From: Sergey A. Mukhin <violet(a)rosnet.net> > To: amilutin(a)ukrpack.net > Cc: stesin(a)gu.net; lir-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 4:00 PM > > > >>>>> "a" == amilutin <amilutin(a)ukrpack.net> writes: > a> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" <violet(a)rosnet.net>, <stesin(a)gu.net> > a> Cc: <lir-wg(a)ripe.net> > a> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:35:28 +0200 > > a> ---------- > >> From: Sergey A. Mukhin <violet(a)rosnet.net> > >> To: stesin(a)gu.net > >> Cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net > >> Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM > >> > >> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin <stesin(a)gu.net> writes: > A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) > A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" <violet(a)rosnet.net> > A> cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net > >> > A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > >> > S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > >> >> > >> >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) > >> > A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate > A> here? > >> > >> In no way. What about yours? > >> > >> Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. > >> > > [sniff] > > a> Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's > a> letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this > a> message. > > a> "Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out > a> opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with > a> interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list > a> are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs > a> in other European countries. Here is the vote!" > > Not sure _any_ majority is writing to this list. As well sorting > just loud voices has very little in common with normal votes > counting, doesn't it? Sure it is. However, it still reflects the general attitude. Moreover, it reflects the attitude of people who _do_ care, who are interested and who can predict the possible impact on the whole Internet community. A resposible guy of a newly emerged LIR is very unlikely to make his own jugement right away just following the discussion. On the contrary the particpants of this mailing list are from all major players in this field. You might have asked, and you once had, why we are still going with this discussion, after we had been given a reasuarance that nobody would be compelled to be serviced by a new RIR. I'm arfaid that, in order to justify the establishment of the new RIR, you will be effectively _forced_ to continue your efforts in seeking agressevely for other countries from the former USSR to be included in the service area, otherwise, you think, you are not going to receive a huge block of IP address space. Suppose you are succeseful in establishing the RIR for the former USSR area, then I am sure that no assurances on the free choice once had been given would matter any longer. > > [sniff] > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by Sergey A. Mukhin 20 Feb '98

20 Feb '98

>>>>> "I" == Igor Romanenko <igor(a)office.lucky.net> writes: I> To: violet(a)rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) I> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:06:00 +0200 (EET) I> Cc: stesin(a)gu.net, lir-wg(a)ripe.net >> On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number >> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE >> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree I> AFAIK, RIPE does not have enough priveleges to create another RIR I> just by itself without IANA. RIPE Office would be fine as long I> as it remains just part of RIPE. But when you say "RIR" this immediately I> brings back the issue of choosing which RIR serves which region I> (RIR is a _Regional_ IR). Should I repeat once more what problems I> arise from this issue? >> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a >> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. >> >> >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. >> A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the A> approach of ripe-167 document. >> >> I am afraid you mistreat the approach. I> It is difficult to mistreat something not clearly defined, you know... Exactly. So again -- more details about that business are necessary. AFAIK there is a whole group busy developing details now. Cannot speak for them; however the results (IMHO!) are predictable enough -- they follow from the spirit of the original document. ( OK, "spirit" is not something real but nonetheless obvious enough ). Thus details must follow before anything real is done and they will. A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. >> >> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare >> free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you >> point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is I> You are most welcome, my dear ;) Here is how: I> 1. Install the new RIR with region == FSU I> 2. Make RIPE beleive that the service is good and the new RIR I> provides sufficient service for all the region. I> 3. Make RIPE issue RIPE-nnn document which states that from now on all LIRs I> in FSU are served exclusively by the new RIR. I> Voila, you are there. When any LIR asks to be served by RIPE, I> RIPE will answer: according to RIPE-nnn you should be served by the new RIR. I> Not that I'm deadly serious about this scenario, but I do want some I> guarantee that it would not happen. >> a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by >> definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. I> Let me remind you what Captain Blood once said: "I'm offering you a free choice: I> either sign this document or I'll kill you" ;))) Anyone can get out I> any time at the price of not being LIR anymore. Is that it? ;))) >> I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow >> such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ). I> ;) I did NOT say "Russia aches". ( It does not. ) I said "if it ached". >> >> Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. I> We most definitely do need RIPE. (non-joke) >> And it's done ;-) (joke) >> OK, but maybe if there grew more "us" we might need some more RIPE ? ( half a joke ;-) >> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are >> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than >> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. I> What then? Then? Many in common between peoples ( of course if they have no strong feelings against it as Ukraine has ) BTW, that fact always seemed mysterious to me ;-) >> Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or >> later or never! That is your choice only. >> >> As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. >> And we try it. I> OK, go ahead and try. Nobody objects. But please, don't make the assumption Glad to hear it. :-) I> that others will be happy with your solution. (BTW, you made this assumption I> also when counting only those "contra", assuming that all others are "pro"). I> In other words: substitute "Russia" for "CIS" everywhere in RIPE-167 I> and ask RIPE to allow LIRs not situated in Russia to be served by the I> new RIR (RRIR? Russian Regional IR) as an option. This seems to resolve I> the problem. Now, is this acceptible for you? No idea about happiness especially for somebody except my person ;-) There can be just "pro" or "contra" for given statement at given moment. Think speaking about "CIS" instead of "Russia" is a good idea. There is another point -- think if we need to create something it would be much better if it will not be just Russian. No precedences AFAIK for RIR of the only country. I cannot invent the name for it right now ( and hope there are people able doing that much better than me ) but IMHO it should _not_ have "Russian" as a part of its name. And for that matter it makes no "political" difference if it will be established not in Russia at all. That is again the technical matters and if I got Ukrainian representatives at that meeting right, Ukraine either has no wish to arrange it right now or no possibility. Who else could? >> And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does >> not like it right now ( or even will never like it )? I> The idea may be right or wrong. But if some feel that it is wrong, I> do you need to pull them with you? No need for it. And no possibility for that matter. We can just try to convince somebody if they do not refuse flatly ( as you did ). >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> I> -- I> Igor Romanenko @..@ I> Office: igor(a)lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) I> Home: igor(a)frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) I> http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " I> "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by Sergey A. Mukhin 20 Feb '98

20 Feb '98

>>>>> "a" == amilutin <amilutin(a)ukrpack.net> writes: a> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" <violet(a)rosnet.net>, <stesin(a)gu.net> a> Cc: <lir-wg(a)ripe.net> a> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:35:28 +0200 a> ---------- >> From: Sergey A. Mukhin <violet(a)rosnet.net> >> To: stesin(a)gu.net >> Cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net >> Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM >> >> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin <stesin(a)gu.net> writes: A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" <violet(a)rosnet.net> A> cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net >> A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: >> S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. >> >> >> >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) >> A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate A> here? >> >> In no way. What about yours? >> >> Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. >> [sniff] a> Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's a> letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this a> message. a> "Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out a> opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with a> interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list a> are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs a> in other European countries. Here is the vote!" Not sure _any_ majority is writing to this list. As well sorting just loud voices has very little in common with normal votes counting, doesn't it? [sniff] -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Fw: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by Dmitri Bourkov 20 Feb '98

20 Feb '98

Sorry, lost cc:, when reply. >-----Original Message----- >From: Andrew Stesin <stesin(a)gu.net> >To: Sergey A. Mukhin <violet(a)rosnet.net> >Cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net <lir-wg(a)ripe.net>; ncc(a)ripe.net <ncc(a)ripe.net> >Date: 19 tebp`k 1998 c. 18:52 >Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > > >>On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: >> >>> On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number >>> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE >>> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE >> establish a RIR without an agreement in the community >> of the region served? RIR creation should be >> initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, >> or am I missing something? > >Andrei, >stop! > >Please, be cool. >Who proposed RIR without such agreement, without bottom-up scheme? >I don't know such persons among us. > >But I'm simply tired to discuss the same things in parallel on two different languages >with the same persons :-). > > >local-ir(a)ripn.net >and >lir-wg(a)ripe.net > >Moreover, >I think it could be useful to compare the style and content of these lists :-) >I'm not interested to discuss language, historical and politics aspects. > >More important - is to join forces in organization of self-regulation >bottom-up scheme. > >Opinions on newIANA scheme will be more interesting; it is correlated, >in principle, with our discussion. >I know TLD-WG papers - but it is more significant then TLDs problems. > > >> >>> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a >>> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. >> >> fSU is not a region. Please use non-political >> but geographical terms for defining region borders. > >It is separate question - why IANA determined years ago geographical principle. > >. >> >> I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain >> at this point. > > >Yes, >if today to write such document - it will be different - RNA - CENTR - newIANA... >It is new experience. > >> >>> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are >>> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than >>> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. >> >> Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian >> language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you >> ought to know English, point. If you don't know >> English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff >> is more knowlegeable > >But I never met technical discussions in English inside CIS :-) - people >use Russian, except preparation official documents. >Russian is simply working language - technical slang is a mix of Russian with >English words. >All guys know English to follow procedure - that's right. > > I think, that one of the problem that in English the most people use one word > for different things. Russian as language and Russian as Rossiyanin. > But Rossiyanin isn't necessary Russian. > Russian language is an international communication language, > not such widespread as English. > > It is interesting - what I mentioned on Meeting and in local-ir - >that the most never read in English any RIPE's principal documents on organization, >policy issues, funding, except contract and procedure requirements. > >I don't want to continue these discussion on language themes. >It is separate story - more interesting to see Japanese, Chinese... >Life will show right way. > >I don't want to be an advocate of any inappropriative scheme for community. > I can't agree with some arguementation during this discussion. > > > > >Regards, >Dmitri >PS >For Europe - what does it mean Russian? >My daughters could be named British, Eestonian, French, German, Jewish, >Russian, Swedish. >Who they are? :-)

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by NCC Role Account 20 Feb '98

20 Feb '98

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by Sergey A. Mukhin 20 Feb '98

20 Feb '98

Greetings, >>>>> "I" == Igor Romanenko <igor(a)office.lucky.net> writes: I> To: hostmaster(a)taide.net I> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:15:23 +0200 (EET) I> Cc: Mike.Norris(a)heanet.ie, ncc(a)ripe.net, lir-wg(a)ripe.net >> > OK, but what do you feel about the corollary: is a RIR free to choose >> > any LIR that seeks service, or is it constrained to serve only those >> > within a certain (or sometimes uncertain) geographical area? Before >> > answering, remember what the E in RIPE, the A in ARIN and the AP >> > in APNIC stand for. >> > >> > Regards. >> > >> > Mike Norris >> >> Thanks Mike, it's a briliant remark! >> >> Excerpt from RIPE-167: >> >> If has been suggested more than once that the coun- >> tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from >> Europe that needed special regional support. I> Argh! Now you start to understand what RIPE-167 is really all about. IMHO that point was included just as a formal reason for creating yet another RIR. I never heard anything about making Ukraine or anybody else to be served by it against their will neither at that meeting nor in corresponding maillists. The only who spoke so were Ukrainian representatives. And what makes sense if Russia is situated in Asia as well as in Europe? It would sound a bit odd if we end up served half by RIPE and half by APNIC considering there are ISPs which serve clients in Vladivostok as well as in Moscow. I believe we definetely need a RIR and anybody who likes to work with it is welcome. >> >> Sounds with no pardon... A huge region is treated as Terra ******* (self >> censored) Incognita with savage population. I> It does not matter that much. I mean, I do not take this as an offense. >> >> FYI: CIS countries are Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Moldova, Armenia, >> Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan, Kirgyzstan, Uzbekistan,Tadjikistan, >> Turkmenistan. >> >> There is no denying the fact that part of them are in Europe or very >> close to it. I> Addition: "and tend to aim at becoming part of Europian community" >> >> IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language >> (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN). I> Which is not difference at all, granted that all CIS countries I> as well as Baltic ones have their own respective languages. I> Add the fact that technicians normally _do_ speak English well I> enough to make "language matters" of small importance even for Russian LIRs. For some people there is no difference. For some other there is a difference. I like that manner to speak for all. Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. Of course, that is possible to have Russian ( Kazakh, Tadjik, etc ) speaking people in RIPE office. Also it's possible to teach everybody concerned to speak English. And what would do people who cannot yet? Not to allow them to use Internet? And there _are_ technicians at least in Moscow and St. Petersbourg who does not know English enough to speak or write email. There are lots of people who can understand documents in English but not write something. Consider the difference between Europe and Russia ( and for that matter other CIS countries ) I> The other difference pointed out at Moscow meeting was payment I> in roubles which really does not make sense in other CIS or FSU countries. Well, maybe. Alas, there still are people and firms and ISP's which have no credit cards. And if the feature would be useful for some of them -- why to neglect it? >> >> If it will be decided that the best solution to serve Russian speaking >> community is to create separate RIR (istead of employing some Russian >> speaking hostmasters at RIPE NCC, creating separate list like >> hostmaster-ru(a)ripe.net and so on), it seems essential that European LIRs >> might choose among the 2 European RIRs, but not vice versa, >> when some _authority_ will decide, that starting from day V. all LIRs >> in country CC will be served by appropriate RIR. I> And the results may well turn to be disastrous. During the Moscow meeting I> some things were made quite obvious I> 1. There will be no eternal alternative. There will be finite test I> period after which all LIRs should be served by only one RIR. If the service is good enough and LIRS agree to it. As far as the RIPE-167 authors thought there might be problems to be served by RIPE if the RIR is functioning. Nothing else. I> 2. After the test period the decision should be made by some kind of voting. I> At first it seems that the voting rules (as outlined in Moscow I> meeting's statement) are really democratic. The decision should be I> made "based on agreement of not less then 2/3 of registered LIRs, I> functioning on the territory of each of the countries served" I> (translation is mine, I can send you the text in Russian if you like). I> Now, the question is: does this mean 2/3 of _all_ the LIRs I> in _all_ countries served? Simple arithmetic will show you that I> if this was the intended meaning, Russian LIRs will _always_ I> outvote any other. BTW, this could be the case with all the other I> votings, decisions and the like. I> 3. The fact that representatives of some countries were absent I> during the Moscow meeting will be taken as the indication I> that LIRs in these countries "do not care" rather then "do not agree". I> Mr.Stesin had already pointed this out. Let me show you an example: I> at Moscow meeting there were 4 LIRs from Ukraine. _All_ of them I> voted against the statement. The result was: the statement had been I> adopted nevertheless. I> ... However there was a separate opinion of Ukraine in the final statement. Some time later Kazakhstan ISPs sent a message agreeing to that meeting resume. And nobody but Ukraine said a word against that yet. My (private) general impression of that meeting is: Ukraine does not want to be served by RIR in Russia under any circumstances. On the other hand nobody insisted on that and nobody is going to. There is good enough future for Internet developing in Russia and it would make sense to found RIR for it and the countries from ex-USSR who would like to join it. They all are independent and have all rights to choose. I> I've sent all my remarks w.r.t. Moscow meeting to Mr.Karrenberg and will I> resend them to the list if there will be some interest >> >> I hope that authors of the document are on the list and kindly >> invite them clearify the essence. I> Sorry, but are you that naive? I've told all this during the Moscow meeting. I> Can you guess the answers? >> Othervise we'll continue discussion about nothing. I> Sorry, no. The more LIRs will ask questions about RIPE-167, the more I> obvious it will become what it is really aimed at. The more obvious I> it will become that the idea of CIS-RIR or FSU-RIR or whatever it will I> be called, does not meet that much appreciation in CIS/FSU/... I> The more difficult it will be for Mr.Platonov to advocate CIS-RIR I> in it's current (proposed) form. Cf. 3 above. >> >> With best regards, >> >> Rimas Janusauskas >> >> >> >> I> Yours, I> -- I> Igor Romanenko @..@ I> Office: igor(a)lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) I> Home: igor(a)frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) I> http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " I> "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog" -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------

9 16

Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by amilutin 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

---------- > From: Sergey A. Mukhin <violet(a)rosnet.net> > To: stesin(a)gu.net > Cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM > > >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin <stesin(a)gu.net> writes: > A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET) > A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" <violet(a)rosnet.net> > A> cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net > > A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people. > >> > >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-) > > A> Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate > A> here? > > In no way. What about yours? > > Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers. > > >> I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot > >> understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ? > > A> Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities > A> (as one can observe from the activities around the issue, > A> i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting). Probably you also? > > A> Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable > A> question here while asking what's wrong > A> with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a > A> show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?" > A> ("this" means the current state of things). > > A> Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach. Ok, > A> dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET > A> where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot > A> live being served by RIPE directly any more; > A> you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR) > A> to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow. > > A> Would you please mind explaining the reasons? > > Sorry for a bit late response. Rosnet can live and communicate > to either RIPE and Internic directly. And many others too. > And some would prefer be served in Moscow. > > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > Actually more full comments on the RIPE 167 were already > given by Alexey Platonov which is one of its authors. > > A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, > A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who > A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, > A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants > A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope > A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice > A> of where to be served from those countries. > > Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Let us try and see what will follow. > We did not mean to gather almost all and ask them move hands here > in Moscow. We told all about the whole thing; everybody interested coult > present at that meeting. The resume of it was sent to all and we are > awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this message. "Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs in other European countries. Here is the vote!" > > A> It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even > A> to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever > A> it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... > > A> My conclusion: > > A> * I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to > A> * be obsoleted. I'd also like a new edition, say ripe-167+ > A> * to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation > A> * removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship > A> * more representative than a single man from Moscow. Where > A> * is (so hyped) community, anyway? > > A> If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have > A> a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support > A> from the *representative* community, -- then who needs > A> all this show? If the scope of interest in a RIR is > A> limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National > A> Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care. > > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. > > >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. > > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > A> union are different things, aren't they? > > I meant benefits of uniting .(point) If you suppose uniting of > everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? > > Besides, I was not an author of RIPE 167 and anyway can have my > own opinion no matter if some documents exist anywhere or not. > > As for my letters hereabout -- that is my treatment of that a bit > vague general document plus a bit of common sense. Plus my point > of view, for that matter, and there are people sharing it with me. > > >> If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered > >> by the fact somebody else wants ? > > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you > point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is > a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by > definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time. > > I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow > such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ). > > >> Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still > >> can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can > >> change history of the past we just have to take into consideration > >> the facts no matter if we like them or not. > > A> The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead. Do we need another > A> union, called "Russian Union", instead? Oh thanks... maybe > A> sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear > A> and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides... > A> if there will be any. But not now, please! > > Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside. > And it's done ;-) (joke) > > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > > > Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or > later or never! That is your choice only. > > As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already. > And we try it. > > And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does > not like it right now ( or even will never like it )? > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net > >> Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > >> Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > >> Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > A> Best regards, > A> Andrew Stesin > > A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > > Kind regards, > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by amilutin 19 Feb '98

19 Feb '98

---------- > From: Andrew Stesin <stesin(a)gu.net> > To: Sergey A. Mukhin <violet(a)rosnet.net> > Cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net; ncc(a)ripe.net > Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting > Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 3:30 PM > > On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > > On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number > > of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE > > itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > "Office" -- no problem, but not "RIR"! How can RIPE > establish a RIR without an agreement in the community > of the region served? RIR creation should be > initiated by the representative community, not RIPE, > or am I missing something? > > > to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a > > business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region. > > fSU is not a region. Please use non-political > but geographical terms for defining region borders. > > > A> Who else rises the hand? Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow, > > A> RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who > > A> doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men, > > A> two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants > > A> to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope > > A> of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice > > A> of where to be served from those countries. > > > > Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? > > Ok, but who was present but Russia and Ukraine? > Russia was "pro", Ukraine was "contra". > 1:1 Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs in other European countries. Here is the vote! > > > awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet. > > ripe-167 is way too unclear for everyone to get its > main ideas in a moment. > > > >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves. > > > > A> This statement of yours contradicts directly with the > > A> approach of ripe-167 document. > > > > I am afraid you mistreat the approach. > > I'm afraid that ripe-167 is just very unclear and uncertain > at this point. > > > >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier. > > > > A> Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please. > > A> (Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close > > A> to ripe-167's content at all). No offense: friendship and > > A> union are different things, aren't they? > > > > I meant benefits of uniting .(point) > > There are some benefits and some losses... > > > If you suppose uniting of > > everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it? > > I don't like the idea of *any* union with *anyone* until > it will be though out carefully in all the details > and everything will be obvious, certain and clear. > > > A> Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them) > > A> have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite" > > A> us with them without taking our opinion into attentions. > > > > I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare > > free choice for all. > > Would you mind pointing me at the written document where > one can get a clear and certain statement of this? > > > I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are > > not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than > > Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed. > > Please leave alone this old crap about English/Russian > language. If you are a LIR (and RIR serves LIRs) you > ought to know English, point. If you don't know > English, you are the customer of a LIR where staff > is more knowlegeable. > I would suggest that the language problem should be removed at all as the irrelevant issue. Everybody knows, regardless of whatever they say, that the usage of English is inevitable. Apart from sending requests to the hostmaster(a)ripe.net every tech person at any LIR should maintain some objects in the database themselves using the auto-dbm(a)ripe.net. What language are you supposed to use when submiting requests to a database which, by the way, must be accessible and readable from anywhere in the World? > Agreed? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet(a)rosnet.net > > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Best regards, > Andrew Stesin > > nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > >

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Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
by Dmitri Bourkov 18 Feb '98

18 Feb '98

-----Original Message----- From: Andrew Stesin <stesin(a)gu.net> To: Sergey A. Mukhin <violet(a)rosnet.net> Cc: lir-wg(a)ripe.net <lir-wg(a)ripe.net> Date: 18 tebp`k 1998 c. 17:03 Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting >On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even > to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever > it means). It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle... > Andrei, I don't like to continue discussion in such form. I see also that you don't want to say that you are afraid of your goverment, even you are afraid of discussion on these theme. I can understand your problems, but I can't agree, when you substituted arguments and problems. For example, you escaped to discuss alternative place for RIR in Kijev because your real opinion based on your experience with your postsoviet goverment that a single garantee for you - to be under RIPE coverage. Be honest and strong or I mistakened and I never heard such words from you and your friends. In such case, sorry guys... Regards, Dmitri

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