December 1995 - lir-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry
by Hank Nussbacher 20 Dec '95

20 Dec '95

On Tue, 19 Dec 95 20:28:26 -0500 you said: >I don't think, a TLD should handle direct user request. Does DE-NIC ? Anyway >the have a application form ready to download for anybody who asks. And >believe me, it is the standard answer, I've heard it ten times at least. > >The customer handling should be done by the ISP the customer is connected >to. And I think this is the current modus operandi anyway. Downloading assumes connectivity. You obviously have never been doing NIC work. We get requests from law firms and other totally non-connected companies to "reserve" a domain name before their competitor gets it. So downloading doesn't always work. >> 1994 (before everyone else realized it was necessary) we set the fee at >$50 - >> one-time and have stuck to it so far without a problem. > >Does this cover your costs ? We believe so - with no profit. >| Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | Hank

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Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry
by Max Gutberlet 20 Dec '95

20 Dec '95

-------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Tuesday, 19-Dec-95 08:38 PM > > From: Hank Nussbacher \ Internet: (hank(a)taunivm.tau.ac.il) > To: Max Gutberlet \ Internet: (mgutberlet(a)server.net4you. co.at) > To: Local Internet Registries in Europe \ Internet: (local-ir@ripe. net) > > Subject: Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry > > For you it is 10 minutes but for 80% of the people it is about 30 minutes and > often more. "Hello, I'd like a domain name." "Ok, what is your primary and > secondary DNS?" "My what!!??" explain, explain, explain, "But all I want is > tada.co.cc! I don't have a Unix system or Windows NT. I am dialing into crISP > and I don't want to be user(a)crISP.net" > > and on and on and on. > I don't think, a TLD should handle direct user request. Does DE-NIC ? Anyway the have a application form ready to download for anybody who asks. And believe me, it is the standard answer, I've heard it ten times at least. The customer handling should be done by the ISP the customer is connected to. And I think this is the current modus operandi anyway. > And if you are not polite and helpful, you get a lawyers letter for "denial of > service" and "monopolization". > Thought of that too. [..some lines deleted..] > Lastly, the entry in root does have a processing effect. If you are a popular > site in the world, and everyone wants to get to www.tada.co.cc then the root > DNS will have to service those requests. Now add up a few thousand DNS entries > just like yours and the Unix system needs a memory upgrade. After 3 years it > needs a complete overhaul. Who pays for the new hardware? > So you propose a traffic oriented chargin system ? [..some lines deleted..] Just talked to my favorite Domain Admin here in Austria, he said that traffic has to be considered too, but taking erveything in mind, I'm still far far away from the price they demanded. > Incidentally, in Israel, where we started charging for domains back in October > 1994 (before everyone else realized it was necessary) we set the fee at $50 - > one-time and have stuck to it so far without a problem. Does this cover your costs ? -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet(a)net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry
by Max Gutberlet 20 Dec '95

20 Dec '95

-------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Tuesday, 19-Dec-95 06:33 PM > > From: Rainer Bieniek \ Internet: (rainer(a)du.gtn.com) > To: Max Gutberlet \ Internet: (mgutberlet(a)server.net4you. co.at) > cc: Local Internet Registries in Europe \ Internet: (local-ir@ripe. net) > > Subject: Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry > [...some lines deleted...] > Yes, you WANT continous service from them - at least you want a continously > running name service. You want a part of the staff's time to do some work for > you and so on. Brought down to a basic fact: > This service costs money and somebody (and this means you :-) has to pay for > it. > No doubt ! My simple question: does the above justify a yearly fee of US$ 390 ? [...some lines deleted...] > Anyway, you demand a service that simply costs money and because of your > organization is not a member of IV DE-NIC you pay the same price as any other > non-IV DE-NIC-customer. You are still free to ask any of the 8 Big ISP's in > germany if they are willing to organize the domain for you. Your RIPE > membership does not count on behold of this matter. > I have NOT been asking for a reasonable price because we are RIPE member, and once again, YES such a service costs money and YES we (= our customer) is willing to pay for it, but once again the price should match the service. And this is obviously not he case. Please feal free to add anything you want to the calculation. -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Greetings Max Gutberlet -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet(a)net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry
by Hank Nussbacher 19 Dec '95

19 Dec '95

On Tue, 19 Dec 95 17:32:28 -0500 you said: >But I DO NOT want a continous service form DE-NIC except 3 lines in their >name server configuration file. EVERYTHING else is handled by us. > >Besides (I know this is impossible) but I would realy like to see the >figures you mentioned. Here is a little calculation (remember we are talking >maintenance not setup): > >Change of Name Server >Address per year: 2 >Amount of time for change in >name server config: 5 min. each >---------------------------------------------- > 10 Minutes (1/6 Hour) For you it is 10 minutes but for 80% of the people it is about 30 minutes and often more. "Hello, I'd like a domain name." "Ok, what is your primary and secondary DNS?" "My what!!??" explain, explain, explain, "But all I want is tada.co.cc! I don't have a Unix system or Windows NT. I am dialing into crISP and I don't want to be user(a)crISP.net" and on and on and on. And if you are not polite and helpful, you get a lawyers letter for "denial of service" and "monopolization". So NICs have to *average* out the time spent. Not all users are as up to date as you are. Lastly, the entry in root does have a processing effect. If you are a popular site in the world, and everyone wants to get to www.tada.co.cc then the root DNS will have to service those requests. Now add up a few thousand DNS entries just like yours and the Unix system needs a memory upgrade. After 3 years it needs a complete overhaul. Who pays for the new hardware? So when doing you calculations, figure on 30 minutes and the deprecation costs of a Unix system. Incidentally, in Israel, where we started charging for domains back in October 1994 (before everyone else realized it was necessary) we set the fee at $50 - one-time and have stuck to it so far without a problem. >One Hostmaster Hour 150 US$ >---------------------------------------------- >variable Costs 25 US$ > >Additional Costs per Entry 100% (should cover non technical tasks) >non-variable Costs 100% (access to net, host cost a.s.o) > >---------------------------------------------- >accumulated Costs 75 US$ > > >The RIPE Staff should have a better view on what a hostmaster hour is worth >and how much Name-Server changes there are per domain and year. The 100% are >from my good old economics professor at the university. > >Greetings >Max Gutberlet Hank Nussbacher

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Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry
by Max Gutberlet 19 Dec '95

19 Dec '95

> The InterNIC handles domains without the checks and maintenance that is common > practice of the majority of European NICs, whether they apply fees to recover > their costs or not. > Ok, this legalizes a one-time setup fee, we all charge one. But not 390 bucks year after year. And what kind of maintenance is done to a Name-Server Record ? > Service may be free of charge or not. This has been intentionally left out of > RFC1591. It is up to the TLD administrator to decide such a delicate matter. As I stated befor, I do NOT WANT free services. This would only lead to abuse of the registries .But I except a TLD to apply a fee that covers their costs, not to make money. RFC1591 does not discuss commerce in any way. Giving the date this RFC was written, that is no surprise. And that may be one problem. > This is usually done with the consensus of national ISPs. I know this is the > case of DE-NIC. Yep, DE-NIC is founded by the BIG 8 ISPs in Germany called IV-DENIC. I wonder what the other german providers have to say about this topic. But this is not my point. As you wrote, this should be left to the organizations founding such TLD agencies, so I would propose a >e.V< which is (in Austrian and German law) a strict non-profit organization. My Question once again: What task that DE-NIC does and that can't be done by a Ripe member is worth 390 US$ a year? Regards Max Gutberlet -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet(a)net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry
by Max Gutberlet 19 Dec '95

19 Dec '95

-------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Tuesday, 19-Dec-95 04:30 PM > > From: Arnold Nipper \ Internet: (nipper(a)xlink.net) > To: Max Gutberlet \ Internet: (mgutberlet(a)server.net4you. co.at) [ ... some lines deleted ... ] > DE-NIC is run by University of Karlsruhe as a three-year contract. DE-NIC acts > as maintainer of the toplevel domain DE and still runs the last resort > registry. Until Aug, 31th services were payed by the IV-DENIC and registration > of a secondlevel domain had to come via an IV-DENIC member. Since Sep, 1st > everyone can use services from DE-NIC on a cost basis calculated on figures for > running the DE-NIC in 1995 and agreed upon by all IV-DENIC members. > But I DO NOT want a continous service form DE-NIC except 3 lines in their name server configuration file. EVERYTHING else is handled by us. Besides (I know this is impossible) but I would realy like to see the figures you mentioned. Here is a little calculation (remember we are talking maintenance not setup): Change of Name Server Address per year: 2 Amount of time for change in name server config: 5 min. each ---------------------------------------------- 10 Minutes (1/6 Hour) One Hostmaster Hour 150 US$ ---------------------------------------------- variable Costs 25 US$ Additional Costs per Entry 100% (should cover non technical tasks) non-variable Costs 100% (access to net, host cost a.s.o) ---------------------------------------------- accumulated Costs 75 US$ The RIPE Staff should have a better view on what a hostmaster hour is worth and how much Name-Server changes there are per domain and year. The 100% are from my good old economics professor at the university. Greetings Max Gutberlet -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet(a)net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+

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Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry
by Max Gutberlet 19 Dec '95

19 Dec '95

I'm currently in the process of transfering the Web Server of a German Company called FMFmedia to Austria. There is already a domain deligated to the this Company (fmfmedia.de), with the NameServers pointing to: >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ns.nordwest.pop.de >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ns.space.net >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ecrc.de I asked the Top-Level Reg. for Germany the DE-NIC to change this so the name-server would point to: >fmfmedia.de nameserver = server.net4you.co.at >fmfmedia.de nameserver = bkk.bkkallincl.co.at . They said YES of course, but you have to pay 550 DM (about US$ 390) a year for MAINTENANCE of this Name-Server Records. When we pointed out, that we are ourselves a member of RIPE and would do any maintenance ourselfs, they simply refused to acknowledge this and insisted on the payment. Maintenance in DE-NICs eyes is (quoted and translated from German): >... the update of Name-Server Entries, change of Glue-A-RRs, register and >maintain the domain in the RIPE-Database and more.... I do not doubt, that Name-Server Entries (3 lines) and Glue-A-RRs (another 3 lines) are necessarily the duty (!) of a Top Level Domain. But I can't understand, why maintenance in the Ripe-DB must be done by the Top-Level, and what they will do, that is worth 390 Bucks a YEAR ! Keeping (!) 6 lines in ones Name-Server file must be a realy big task ! The InterNIC charges 50 US$ a year for handling domains and they have much more work to do. I understand from my time on the Net (about 5 Years now) that RFCs are the rules of the net. RFC1591 Domain Name System Structure and Delegation states: >..These administrators are performing a public service on >behalf of the Internet community. and > These designated authorities are trustees for the delegated > domain, and have a duty to serve the community. and (my favorite lines) >Concerns about "rights" and "ownership" of domains are >inappropriate. It is appropriate to be concerned about >"responsibilities" and "service" to the community. I can't see DE-NIC in there ! I don't expect DE-NIC to be free of any charge, since there IS work to do and a host and hostmaster to be paid for, but DE-NIC tries to make a quick buck out of the internet boom. Am I making sense ? Someone outthere shares this view ? Please don't hesitate to applaud, flame or ignore this Mail. Regards from a confused and angry netmaster Max Gutberlet -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet(a)net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+

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23RD RIPE meeting announcement etc.
by RIPE NCC Staff 18 Dec '95

18 Dec '95

Dear local registry contacts, It is high time that the announcement for the 23rd RIPE meeting goes out. And it is a fact that we like our local registries to all know of this. But this time. I'm not going to fill up your mailboxes by sending all RIPE-meeting-related messages to 2 separate mailinglists. Therefore, if you want to know all about the meeting, please: - subscribe to the ripe-list mailinglist. To do this, mail to majordomo(a)ripe.net with in the message body: 'subscribe ripe-list'. (The announcement for the meeting & related messages will be sent out tomorrow, Tuesday 19th December.) or - check out ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/Next-Meeting/ Kind regards, Roderik Muit RIPE NCC

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Registration for Training Course in Amsterdam closed
by RIPE NCC Training 04 Dec '95

04 Dec '95

Dear Local IR's, Local IR Training Course February, 2nd Amsterdam, The Netherlands The registration for this Local IR Training course has now been closed. The course is oversubscribed, so we are, regrettably, not able to accept more attendees. If you are interested in hosting a course for local IR's, we would be happy to do this. To discuss this further, please send mail to <training(a)ripe.net>. Kind regards, RIPE NCC Training Team

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