- ipv6-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [ipv6-wg] Have we failed as IPv6 Working Group?
by Lee Howard 05 Oct '19

05 Oct '19

On 10/5/19 12:06 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > Lee Howard <lee(a)asgard.org> writes: > > >> IPv6 deployment in your network means cutting your NAT expense in >> half. More, as more sites deploy. > There's no fungable or measureable "NAT expense". NAT generally saves > money. Look at the container market for one recent example. If you have a dedicated box or service card for NAT, you have a specific NAT expense. If you can buy a smaller box for half the cost, you've saved a specific amount of money. I know of mobile carriers who NATted every Internet connection in IPv4, and have halved their capital expense on NAT. >> IPv6 deployment in your network might mean you can sell some of your >> IPv4 addresses, a clever way I've seen to fund the transition. > That I agree with. But I see no sign anyone is actually doing that. It's > saner to horde at the moment. I've had inquiries along these lines, and written proposals. >> IPv6 deployment on your web site means improving your page load time, >> and therefore SEO, and therefore revenue. At NANOG I showed quotes >> that IPv6 increases revenue by 0.2%-7%.[1] > BS. Happy eyeballs costs time. Here's my assessment: https://www.retevia.net/why-is-ipv6-faster/ >> The cost to deploy IPv6 is not high: it's mostly labor, and people who > BS. It needs to be implemented first in a deployable state. "Deployable"? It's been deployed by the millions. Everyone who's done it says it was mostly labor. >> complain that there's no training are ignoring the hundreds of >> tutorials, books, articles, videos, and web sites available to them >> for free, not to mention the thousands of friendly engineers. >> >> To everyone who sees a high cost, I ask whether you know the value of >> NAT reduction and web site speed (and avoiding buying addresses, or > I note that port exaustion is a real thing on ipv4 networks today that > more should measure. In one recent set of "coffee shop tests", I had an > over 30% initial syn failure rate. I don't know why (we were also > testing ecn) at the moment, but that was a shocking number. > > ipv4 dns with udp was already using up a lot of udp port space. > with quic eating up a lot of udp more, I'm not happy. > > JUST deploying dns over IPv6 as I did Interesting! > >> selling addresses), in $LOCAL_CURRENCY, so you can evaluate every >> obstacle you might encounter. For instance, "Our web conferencing >> doesn't support IPv6, and it'll cost us $9,000 a year to change. But >> IPv6 will save us $30,000." The decision is easy. > That last number is pure BS. It's not a single cost. It's that last > dangling set of apps that can't be converted to ipv6 that's the infinite > cost. I'm not sure what you're calling "BS." Obviously $30,000 was a made-up number for the example. I don't know what "dangling set of apps" you mean that can't be converted, especially in the context of "How much would it cost to add IPv6 support?" >> In another message on this thread I noted that small ISPs are squeezed >> between CPE and IPv4 purchases. They can't get CPE that supports IPv6, >> or that supports MAP or 464xlat, because they don't buy enough, so >> they have to pay to buy addresses. > They can't get cheap CPE that has those features. ALL that code runs > great in openwrt. > > And ipv4 addresses are needed until ipv6 hits 100% deployment. Fewer IPv4 addresses are needed in the context of MAP or 464xlat. >> That's easily solved by collective >> action: 100 small ISPs can get the features they want (at a better >> discount) than one acting alone. > Great. Is there an ISP association trying to do that already? Not that I know of. If there's interest, I'll support, maybe organize. Lee

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Re: [ipv6-wg] Have we failed as IPv6 Working Group?
by Lee Howard 05 Oct '19

05 Oct '19

On 10/5/19 11:53 AM, Dave Taht wrote: > Lee Howard <lee(a)asgard.org> writes: > >> On 10/4/19 4:55 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >>> not being able to get a >>> static IPv6 address out of comcast, my hurricane tunnel getting blocked >>> by netflix, the still-huge prefix sub-distribution problem. The idea of >>> dynamic 2 week prefixes in part of the world prone to earthquakes >>> doesn't work for me... >> I can think of several programmatic ways to deal with that. > ... > > for real use a static ipv6/48 to distribute is needed. Dynamic ipv6 > assignments are fine if you are doing trivial stuff but if ipv6 is ever > to even start to supplant ipv4 it's got to become more static. Or more resilient to renumbering. I didn't mean to suggest that you as a user should have to code your home network. I meant that we (maybe IETF) have not done well at handling the case of "I received a new prefix, and I am the edge router; I need to tell everything else what changed." Thus kicking off RAs, DHCPv6 updates, dDNS updates, and a firewall that understands dynamic prefixing. >> I was thinking about some Hackathon projects to add IPv6 capability to >> open source projects. Seems to me the hardest part is making sure >> there's an adequate test environment. > Hackathons ARE useful tools for getting a short burst of focused work > out of people sharing the same space and time, but too many are thinking > hackathons alone will solve more detailed design, coding and iteration > problems; it's one of those ideas trivializing the costs of "Real > Programming(tm)" that really bugs me nowadays. > > I could share here the detailed project management stuff that went into > cerowrt's run (3 years), or the outline of work we did for > make-wifi-fast - which we've now been at for over 5 years now - 3+ to > get fq_codel to work right on wifi, 2 to rework the API to work for more > devices, and a pointer to the latest work which has been going for 3+ > months now - and for all that we've only accomplished about 1/10th what > we wanted to do, and only on 4 chipsets (most recently intel's ax200 > chips) out of the hundreds. This might make for an interesting WG discussion, getting actual work organized and done. >>>>> But Mr.Rey's reference about IPv6 deployment rates also makes a good point! >>>> Nobody cares about deployment rates. What good does it do, if people don't use it ? >>>> This is more realistic : https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html >>>> During the week, we are below 25%. >> (Replying to an item upthread) >> >> APNIC's statistics show that in almost every network that has IPv6, it >> is almost always used. > I pointed to coffee shops as one counter example. If they don't have IPv6, they're not using it. > To the lack of > DHCPv6-PD on android (and I think, IOS) for tethering as another. Based on discussions at IETF, I guess Android is expecting to get multiple IPv6 addresses and reassign as needed. Don't know about IOS. >> Another thought I've had: >> >> One of the reasons small ISPs can't deploy IPv6 is that they don't >> control the features in the CPE, because they don't buy enough. >> >> I know a couple CPE vendors who would be happy to provide a specific >> feature set for a guaranteed purchase of a couple thousand units a >> month. This sounds like a good business to me: if a bunch of small >> ISPs each contract for a specific number of units, but require >> RIPE-554, RFC7084, and RFC8085, we could both get the needed features, >> and get a larger volume discount than they get now. > Yes, the smaller ISPs should join together in a buying > club like that. Tried to get that going in NZ once. Failed. > > tried harder to make the aftermarket do the right thing - the eeros and > google wifi's of the world are doing ok, the bottom part of the market > just copy/pastes whatever's in openwrt at that moment, slaps a label > on it and ships it. So we focused on making the openwrt base as good > as possible. Might be another part of "What the WG should do" discussion. >> Saving $1 per CPE is better than spending $20 for an IPv4 address for >> every new user. Please confirm my math. :) > I always thought that ISPs would invest in their CPE far more than they > have. Free.fr being a shining example! ISPs get paid for modem rentals > and have customer support costs that could be reduced - that should have > been a great ongoing funding source and motivation, alone. > > but I know a few vendors, like evenroute, doing bufferbloat AND ipv6 > right, that have totally failed to crack ISP market thus far. > > and for no reason I can think of, the rental folk don't push out > new hardware OR new software to their users - I think charter made > an effort to get docsis 3.1 stuff out there and retire all the docsis > 2.0 gear in place, but not comcast. > > Secondly none of those ipv6 standards help when you still really need a > real IPv4 address, so yer still out the $20, IF you can buy the /24s you > need. And there's more ipv6 RFCs left without running, integrated code, > to support them. In my experience, accountants run the CPE purchasing, and saving 5¢ per unit is worth more to them than avoiding 10% of them driving $30 support calls. Same with rentals: why replace when the cost is already completely written off? There are some good reasons (like technical debt dragging on forward competitiveness) to replace. It may be the case that not everyone needs a unique IPv4 address. Several broadband ISPs have deployed DS-Lite, for example. I don't know the business model; do they charge for unique IPv4 addresses when needed? That's sort of back to my other point of aligning expenses and revenues. >> You just mentioned your un-upgradable "OS/2 Warp, MS-DOS, Windows 95, >> HPUX, Solaris, Windows 2000," and now you say it's easy to upgrade. > I didn't say it was "easy to upgrade" in the context of this legacy > gear, I said it was easy to "add" 420m addresses. 240/4 is almost fully > enabled in every OS except windows, for example. Fixed the last bug > in it for linux and openwrt last december. Deploying. 0/8 now. What's the relative level of support for unicast 240/4 and IPv6? > > Yea, people keep missing on this point. IPv6 is not globally reachable > either. To try and clarify: A new IOT device trying to backhaul its > data to 240.0.0.1 doesn't need to have a windows OS also trying to get to > that same address. Is that clearer? A new application can try to use > new IPv4 addresses. Do you mean 240/4 for private connectivity, or 240/4 publicly routed and it's fine for some applications if it's unreachable? Do all routers etc support it? Lee

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Disband IPv6 WG
by Blake 05 Oct '19

05 Oct '19

As the OP's goal seems to be XKCD standards compliance(1), perhaps it's time to revive IPv10? https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omar-ipv10-11 After all, it took Edison two decades to admit DC power distribution couldn't work, & NYC only had to wait a century more until they could decommission their commercial DC electrical power distribution network... ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_currents ) -Blake 1) https://xkcd.com/927/

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Re: [ipv6-wg] IPv6 WG co-chair selection
by Erik Bais 03 Oct '19

03 Oct '19

Hi Raymond, You have my support for another round. Erik Bais From: ipv6-wg <ipv6-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> on behalf of "raymond.jetten(a)elisa.fi" <raymond.jetten(a)elisa.fi> Date: Friday 13 September 2019 at 12:04 To: RIPE IPv6 WG <ipv6-wg(a)ripe.net> Cc: "ipv6-wg-chairs(a)ripe.net" <ipv6-wg-chairs(a)ripe.net> Subject: [ipv6-wg] IPv6 WG co-chair selection Hello again, Apologies for the previously incomplete and spelling mistakes email. I hope below is a better version : -- Hello All, Its almost 3 years ago that I started as a IPv6-WG co-chair, so as per our current policy it's time to step down. However, I’m very willing to stand for re-selection, and serve another term as IPv6 WG co-chair, which I hope you all find a good idea. The full process is described here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/ipv6/ipv6-wg-chair-selection-proce… See you all in Rotterdam! Rgds, Ray

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Re: [ipv6-wg] Disband IPv6 WG
by Jens Link 03 Oct '19

03 Oct '19

Uros Gaber <uros(a)gaber.in> writes: > On 3 Oct 2019, at 14:03, Job Snijders <job(a)instituut.net> wrote: >> Even worse, delivering email over ipv6 to the mail giants is a far >> worse experience than via ipv4. More emails arrive when you >> disable ipv6 on your mail servers. > I would say the same experience as long as the server and supported > services are configured correctly. If you google correctly you'll find many people compiling about google not accepting mail via IPv6. Therefore not many people do SMTP via IPv6. Or if they do they have an extra (v4 only) transport in their outgoing SMTP server. ==> Runing Dualstack is more work. Jens -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Delbrueckstr. 41 | 12051 Berlin, Germany | +49-151-18721264 | | http://blog.quux.de | jabber: jenslink(a)quux.de | --------------- | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [ipv6-wg] IPv6 WG co-chair selection
by Paul Hoogsteder 03 Oct '19

03 Oct '19

Hello Routing WG members, I support Raymond's re-election. Kind regards, Paul Hoogsteder Meanie AS31019

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Re: [ipv6-wg] IPv6 WG co-chair selection
by Kennedy, James 02 Oct '19

02 Oct '19

+1 support for Ray Regards, James From: ipv6-wg [mailto:ipv6-wg-bounces@ripe.net] On Behalf Of Jetten Raymond Sent: 13 September 2019 12:04 To: RIPE IPv6 WG <ipv6-wg(a)ripe.net> Cc: ipv6-wg-chairs(a)ripe.net Subject: [ipv6-wg] IPv6 WG co-chair selection Hello again, Apologies for the previously incomplete and spelling mistakes email. I hope below is a better version : -- Hello All, Its almost 3 years ago that I started as a IPv6-WG co-chair, so as per our current policy it's time to step down. However, I'm very willing to stand for re-selection, and serve another term as IPv6 WG co-chair, which I hope you all find a good idea. The full process is described here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/ipv6/ipv6-wg-chair-selection-proce… See you all in Rotterdam! Rgds, Ray

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IPv6 WG co-chair selection
by Jetten Raymond 01 Oct '19

01 Oct '19

Hello again, Apologies for the previously incomplete and spelling mistakes email. I hope below is a better version : -- Hello All, Its almost 3 years ago that I started as a IPv6-WG co-chair, so as per our current policy it's time to step down. However, I'm very willing to stand for re-selection, and serve another term as IPv6 WG co-chair, which I hope you all find a good idea. The full process is described here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/ipv6/ipv6-wg-chair-selection-proce… See you all in Rotterdam! Rgds, Ray

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IPv6 WG agenda
by Jen Linkova 30 Sep '19

30 Sep '19

Hello, The agenda for IPv6 WG session at RIPE79 has been published: https://ripe79.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/ipv6-wg/ See you all in Rotterdam! -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry on behalf of IPv6 WG chairs.

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IPv6 WG chair election
by Jetten Raymond 19 Sep '19

19 Sep '19

Hello All, Its almost 3 years ago that I started as a IPv6-WG co-chair, so as per our current policy it's time to step down. However, I'm very willing to stand for re-election, and serve another term as IPv6 WG co-chair, which I hope you all find a good idea. See you all in Rotterdam! Rgds, Ray

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