October 2019 - ipv6-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Disband IPv6 WG
by Jens Link 29 Nov '19

29 Nov '19

Hi, after now almost 12 years using, working and teaching[1] IPv6 I've come to the conclusion that IPv6 is a mistake and will not work. Therefore the RIPE IPv6 WG should be disbanded and replaced with a new WG that MUST investigate all possible solutions to artificially prolong the live of IPv4 till the day a new successor for IPv4 is created and implemented! Some great ideas[2] are already proposed, some of them already implemented: - Use of NAT - Use of the first Class-A network 0.0.0.0[3] - Use of parts of localhost Class-A network 127.0.0.0 - Use of (parts) of Class-D address space (multicast) - Use of Class-E address space (future use) - Using part of the UDP / TCP port range as extension for the address. Some of the reserved address spaces could also be used. E.g. nobody is using 192.0.2.0/24 for documentation anyway. It should also be investigated to take back legacy IPv4 resources, although the "owners" of these resources might already selling them on the open market. It MUST also be considered not filtering on Class-C[4] bounderies but going for something smaller like /26 or /27 in the global routing table. Also new Class Designations for these prefixes MUST be created. The new successor to IPv4 should not make the same mistakes as IPv6. - IT MUST have NAT - It MUST have Classes - IT MUST have DHCP - It MUST have ARP - It should be possible to drop ICMP the same impact as in IPv4. Many experts I talked to over the years told me that blocking ICMP has no negative impacts. - It MUST only have numbers and dots "." - There should be absolutly no reasons to use "[ ]" in URLs Probably the best way to proceed is to just add one or two octets to the address. One of the reasons for the above is that there are so is so many good documentation already written about IPv4! And people already know about IPv4! Why waste this knowledge and experience? There is also plenty of good software out there that can't work with IPv6[5] Change is bad! People don't want to learn! IPv4! MUST! NOT! DIE! Jens [1] at least trying to teach, as one can see from the great number of people actually using IPv6 with little success [2] https://netdevconf.info/0x13/session.html?talk-ipv4-unicast-expansions [3] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?… [4] a Class-C network is the equivalent of an /24. I was told by experts that the definition of some bit set in the first octet of an IPv4 address is complete and utter nonsense [5] like a 20 year old shell script that is so important for $university that it would be hard for them to implement IPv6!

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Fwd: SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds
by Fernando Gont 23 Oct '19

23 Oct '19

Folks, Your input would be very welcome. Preferably on the v6ops wg mailing-list (https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops), but also on this list or multicast to us (authors). Thanks! -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: SLAAC renum: Problem Statement & Operational workarounds Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 03:51:32 -0500 From: Fernando Gont <fgont(a)si6networks.com> To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops(a)ietf.org> Folks, Earlier this year there was a lot of discussion about slaac renumbering problems. Our original I-D covered everything from the problem statement to proposed protocol updates and operational workarounds. Based on the comments received while discussing this topic on this list and other forums, and in order to keep the discussion better focused on specific aspects of the problem, we have posted a v6ops-targetted document that focuses on: * The problem statement * Discussion of operational workarounds, and associated constraints The document is available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-v6ops-slaac-renum We'd like to hear from the wg whether we have missed anything, whether the document is useful to the community, etc. Thanks! Cheers, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont(a)si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492

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Have we failed as IPv6 Working Group?
by Wolfgang Zenker 11 Oct '19

11 Oct '19

Hi, the description of the working group says: "The IPv6 Working Group is for anyone with an interest in the next generation Internet Protocol. The activities of the WG include education and outreach, sharing deployment experiences and discussing and fixing operational issues." I know we do all of this at RIPE Meetings and maybe other times as well, but still ... ... the default network at RIPE Meetings is the dual-stack network, with the IPv6-only (NAT64) network as a barely used extra which is "supported on a best effort basis". With the effect that almost no-one except a few "ipv6 zealots" uses it. This tells me that a significant part of the RIPE community does not only consider this setup "not production ready" but expects an amount of breakage so huge that it's not acceptable to try it out and see what would actually break (while still offering a dual-stack network as a fallback, of course). ... the results of the RIPE NCC survey published today lists the scarcity of IPv4 addresses as one of the largest challenges facing the participants in the survey. At the same time, about one quarter of participants has no plans for deploying IPv6, with the most common reason given as "there is no business requirement for IPv6". This tells me that a significant part of the RIPE community does not view a migration to IPv6 as a useful way to deal with the shortage of available IPv4 address space. These two examples both concern the RIPE community, a group of people that are highly interested and knowledgeable in the field of internet operations. Now think about what the situation might look like at your friendly neighbourhood IT shop or network department. I maybe wouldn't call the IPv6 WG "failed", but it clearly still has a long way to go until we can claim "mission accomplished". Wolfgang

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Re: [ipv6-wg] Have we failed as IPv6 Working Group?
by Geert Jan de Groot 09 Oct '19

09 Oct '19

Folks, I've been out of the ISP business for a while now, but may I make some observations: Many of the major content providers are IPv6-enabled. The question is for end users, how to use IPv6 to access these services. In the Netherlands, there is no mobile operator providing IPv6 connectivity. None! I cannot get IPv6 on my mobile connection! Also, in the Netherlands, the one Internet-to-home provider providing dual-stack IPv6 (w/o NAT mess) is being assimilated by it's parent who, after twenty-five years, is still technologically behind and can't deliver IPv6 themselves. The mitigation to get IPv6 access for endusers who can't get IPv6 from their provider (sixxs.net) closed doors two year ago. I am not aware of any VPN-provider offering IPv6 service to allow endusers to augment the limited offering from their service provider. It isn't a matter of "switch to a provider who has", for endusers, there is *nothing to choose from*. We can do all kinds of exercises (IPv6-only event networks, eat-your-own-dogfood exercises), but there must be reasons for having a business case for not providing IPv6 to end users. Perhaps they are non-technical, but reasons they are; if there would be a business case, people would be doing it. And perhaps these (non-technical?) reasons should be something the WG can look at. A fair number of members of this WG are related to the ISP industry and perhaps can shine some light as to the "why don't you" for access providers? Geert Jan

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[official] What Shall This WG Do
by Jen Linkova 08 Oct '19

08 Oct '19

Hello, dear IPv[0-9] enthusiasts, supporters and zealots, As a co-chair I'm excited to see some discussion happening here, especially after the list has been quiet for a while. I'm less excited to see that some people have started giving up hope and telling the rest of use we shall give up to.. By a lucky coincidence we have 10 mins open-mic slot during IPv6 WG session in Rotterdam to discuss what the WG is doing and what we, as a community, want it to do (however after reading all those threads I'm afraid 10 mins might not be enough). What I'd like to ask you meantime is to think what the priorities and goals are. Get IPv6 adoption to 100%? (Is it realistic? Shall we target to 100%?) Convince everyone that IPv6 is good and IPv4 shall be turned off? Provide a venue for those who are interested to discuss the topic and share the experience (including negative one? Produce documents (or recommendations?) Educate people? What should be considered as success, what is the failure and what is just a roadblock? The current WG charter is available on https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/ipv6 Please read it and let's discuss if anything should be changed there. -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry

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Re: [ipv6-wg] Have we failed as IPv6 Working Group?
by mailinglists＠high5.alioth.uberspace.de 08 Oct '19

08 Oct '19

On 19-10-07 20:05:18, Bjoern Buerger wrote: > * Martin Schr??der (martin(a)oneiros.de) [191007 19:13]: > > Am Mo., 7. Okt. 2019 um 18:04 Uhr schrieb Dave Taht <dave.taht(a)gmail.com>: > > > If I can get *one* person in this working group to go down to their > > > local coffee shop and make ipv6 work by whatever means necessary (and > > > > Please start by eating your own dog food and make future RIPE meetings > > IPv6 only. > > +1 > It is possible to do do v6 only networks; troopers.de had a rather nice v6 only net and as a half pentest conference included finding non working services as targets for the CTF. Maybe you should just encourage power users to adopt v6 and annoy the companies breaking it. And maybe enno's name was mentioned somewhere there too... ;) Greets J

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Re: [ipv6-wg] Have we failed as IPv6 Working Group?
by Dave Taht 08 Oct '19

08 Oct '19

Michel Py <michel(a)arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us> writes: > Hi Carlos, > >> Carlos Friaças wrote : >> We have to acknowledge "IPv6 zealots" are real. >> Disclaimer: i think i was part of that group some years ago. > > Indeed, and so was I. WAS. As was I. Straws that broke my back finally were not being able to get a static IPv6 address out of comcast, my hurricane tunnel getting blocked by netflix, the still-huge prefix sub-distribution problem. The idea of dynamic 2 week prefixes in part of the world prone to earthquakes doesn't work for me... and my email over ipv6 is perpetually getting blocked. spamhaus blocked multiple attempts to get dave(a)taht.net (fully ipv6 enabled) to send mail ti this list. And I sat on it for an hour after clearing it, in the hope the block would clear. It didn't. Getting off email blocklists isn't a problem users can handle... and spamhaus has no means of interacting with me. I *really* wanted email right to my servers in my office to just work, over ipv6. Everywhere I've been lately (nicaragua, portugal) has switched to whatsapp. Damn it, I wanted ipv6 to roll out faster than it has. I'm in a half dozen RFCs, worked in IETF homenet, founded the cerowrt project with an explicit goal of making ipv6 more deployable (as we did!), *by actually implementing and distributing* more code based on the standards, and I plan to keep working on making ipv6 better, but that said, we need more running code, still, which only then can get into a deployment, and nobody's funding that. Nobody's implemented much of ietf homenet. there's no code to enable prefix distribution on android. those are my top two ipv6 bullet items. more universal SADR would help. Tunnels of all types "just working" would be good too. Perhaps with the chinese government mandating more ipv6, more open source code, at least, will get funded and written. Maybe not of the freedom and privacy enhancing stuff, though. > > >> But Mr.Rey's reference about IPv6 deployment rates also makes a good point! > > Nobody cares about deployment rates. What good does it do, if people don't use it ? > This is more realistic : https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html > During the week, we are below 25%. One entertaining thing I've been up to is checking the state of multiple kinds of deployment in the coffee shops of the world with a string of simple tests anyone can do (after we package them up better) https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/bloat/2019-September/009334.html So far thats: Bufferbloat: 95% (starbucks is doing the right thing here, yea!) IPv6: 0% DNSSEC: 0%. "coffee shop testing" offers y'all the opportunity to go "fix it" by leaping over the counter, and/or to get a deeper grip on the real deployment problems we have with middleboxes along the edge. Sometimes leads to free coffee, too! Please have more meetings in coffee shops, not conventions! Does anybody here, know what the heck the 5G people plan to do with IPv6? and new places like starlink and oneweb and the like? I really hope the 5G folk are going to get ipv6 prefix distribution and SADR right, but have no data. > >> We also have to acknowledge "IPv4 zealots" are real. > > And they are the ones with the money. The lobbyists. The connections. The banana peels. The 75% market share. > The IPv4 zealots have not always been there; they have been created as a reaction to the nonsense of the IPv6 zealots. > IPv6 replacing IPv4 is a delusion. I should make clear I'm not a zealot of any sort on the ipv4 vs ipv6 front. (I freely confess to being zealous about fq_codel... but if you deployed it and looked at the data, I figure more would become one also! :)) I came to the reluctant conclusion last year that dual stack is going to be ~forever, that ipv6 was platauing in multiple ways and we needed to kick it harder, that the rollout stats vs actual usage were hopelessly overoptimistic... and went poking at what we could do to ALSO make ipv4 better as a third way out and have been plunking away it ever since. One thought was: Since there was demand for more IPv4, perhaps that would also fuel more updates to ipv6, as both require middlebox updates... As for money to make middleboxes better in *any* way, don't make me laugh. During the cerowrt project we approached everybody making money from the internet and multiple non-profits and got nowhere. I spent my own fortune on it, and got a lot of volunteers onboard, especially in the openwrt universe... and made things better, but I got nothing left. We need a new kame-like project to jointly handle the cracks in the ipv6 network architecture, standards and code, at the very least. The costs of "mo ipv4" are trivial in comparison. > 3 months ago, I turned DECNET off on my network. It was actually not > even an IT/network decision; customer decided they were done with a > product, and we de-commissioned the tools with DECNET. Business > decision. We run OS/2 Warp, MS-DOS, Windows 95, HPUX, Solaris, Windows > 2000, and I probably forget some. Please note the ipv4 extensions stuff won't work with most that "legacy" ipv4 stuff. It can, however, enable new applications and services to exist. Most of the IOT and SDN stacks already do work. Most don't have decent ipv6 support due to resource constraints. Perversely I kind of like the idea of a portion of the internet immune from legacy windows worms and viruses.... > > In 20 years, I will still need IPv4. And it seems possible we can make more. > And I have enough IPv4 on my hands for the foreseeable future. I bought some recently, just in case. > > > I encourage the WG group to read this : > https://www.internetgovernance.org/2019/02/20/report-on-ipv6-get-ready-for-… > And the full text : > https://www.internetgovernance.org/wp-content/uploads/IPv6-Migration-Study-… > Serious work, paid by ICANN. We cited that work in our presos on this subject as that was also key on gilmore, paul wouters and myself to start looking hard at what it would take to make ipv4 better in multiple ways. Please look it over!? The ipv4 unicast extensions project is one outgrowth of that: A string of trivial patches to a couple OSes and routing daemons and we're well on our way to being able to add 420m new addresses to the internet, within a 10 year time horizon. Politically... oh, lawd. I'm focusing on technical feasibility only at the moment. If you want some details about that, see the WIP here: https://github.com/dtaht/unicast-extensions/tree/master/rfcs I'd like lots more folk to review this before we punt it up to iana and the ietf, the RIRs and so on, and more to fiddle with 240/4 and 0/8, at least. Pay special attention to section 7.1. There's more than just this to make ipv4 better, possible. Taking flack on just this much is no fun, but can we get more folk thinking out of this box in general? We certainly aren't proposing that ipv6 wg's *disband* but if more folk would focus on making the code work and implementing more of the standards that exist, AND looking at deployment problems with an open mind and willingness to get in there and fix them, that would be a goodness. -- Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740

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ipv6 over 5G?
by Dave Taht 07 Oct '19

07 Oct '19

Earlier in this thread I'd asked: "How is ipv6 going to work over 5G"? and got no replies. Anyone? All I know is the 3gpp working groups have been participating in ietf a bit, and we're "in a race" to 5G, currently controversial due to huewei being so far ahead on it than everyone else and controlled by the chinese PLA. My primary interest is in the fixed line deployments of the wireless stuff that can only work outdoors - not the phones. I know of multiple providers planning to replace dsl with 5G but have no idea how they plan to do it. I figure CGNAT factors in a lot. Are people going to get a /48? Static or dynamic? How will ipv4 be delivered? Can they buy a real IPv4 address for their business? Any pointers to public documents on how it's intended to work with ipv6 would be welcomed, and if this is a question covered by this group before, please steer me in the right directions. thx. -- Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740

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Re: [ipv6-wg] Have we failed as IPv6 Working Group?
by Dave Taht 07 Oct '19

07 Oct '19

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:23 AM <bob.sleigh(a)bt.com> wrote: > > Congratulations on your contribution to success Dave! > > Regards > > Bob > > Sent from my local coffee shop - using my EE Mobile over native IPv6 Yea! thank you! That cheers me up a lot. I hadn't found a single coffee shop yet that had it. But my request was that someone go to their local coffee shop and *make* it work when it didn't already. Care to go for 2/2? Test for bufferbloat via dslreports.com and/or flent's rrul test? > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6-wg <ipv6-wg-bounces(a)ripe.net> On Behalf Of Dave Taht > Sent: 07 October 2019 17:04 > To: Bjoern Buerger <b.buerger(a)penguin.de> > Cc: ipv6-wg(a)ripe.net IPv6 <ipv6-wg(a)ripe.net> > Subject: Re: [ipv6-wg] Have we failed as IPv6 Working Group? > > If I can get *one* person in this working group to go down to their local coffee shop and make ipv6 work by whatever means necessary (and also fix their bufferbloat) - I'll consider my participation in this thread a success. > -- Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740

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Re: [ipv6-wg] Have we failed as IPv6 Working Group?
by Lee Howard 05 Oct '19

05 Oct '19

On 10/5/19 12:06 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > Lee Howard <lee(a)asgard.org> writes: > > >> IPv6 deployment in your network means cutting your NAT expense in >> half. More, as more sites deploy. > There's no fungable or measureable "NAT expense". NAT generally saves > money. Look at the container market for one recent example. If you have a dedicated box or service card for NAT, you have a specific NAT expense. If you can buy a smaller box for half the cost, you've saved a specific amount of money. I know of mobile carriers who NATted every Internet connection in IPv4, and have halved their capital expense on NAT. >> IPv6 deployment in your network might mean you can sell some of your >> IPv4 addresses, a clever way I've seen to fund the transition. > That I agree with. But I see no sign anyone is actually doing that. It's > saner to horde at the moment. I've had inquiries along these lines, and written proposals. >> IPv6 deployment on your web site means improving your page load time, >> and therefore SEO, and therefore revenue. At NANOG I showed quotes >> that IPv6 increases revenue by 0.2%-7%.[1] > BS. Happy eyeballs costs time. Here's my assessment: https://www.retevia.net/why-is-ipv6-faster/ >> The cost to deploy IPv6 is not high: it's mostly labor, and people who > BS. It needs to be implemented first in a deployable state. "Deployable"? It's been deployed by the millions. Everyone who's done it says it was mostly labor. >> complain that there's no training are ignoring the hundreds of >> tutorials, books, articles, videos, and web sites available to them >> for free, not to mention the thousands of friendly engineers. >> >> To everyone who sees a high cost, I ask whether you know the value of >> NAT reduction and web site speed (and avoiding buying addresses, or > I note that port exaustion is a real thing on ipv4 networks today that > more should measure. In one recent set of "coffee shop tests", I had an > over 30% initial syn failure rate. I don't know why (we were also > testing ecn) at the moment, but that was a shocking number. > > ipv4 dns with udp was already using up a lot of udp port space. > with quic eating up a lot of udp more, I'm not happy. > > JUST deploying dns over IPv6 as I did Interesting! > >> selling addresses), in $LOCAL_CURRENCY, so you can evaluate every >> obstacle you might encounter. For instance, "Our web conferencing >> doesn't support IPv6, and it'll cost us $9,000 a year to change. But >> IPv6 will save us $30,000." The decision is easy. > That last number is pure BS. It's not a single cost. It's that last > dangling set of apps that can't be converted to ipv6 that's the infinite > cost. I'm not sure what you're calling "BS." Obviously $30,000 was a made-up number for the example. I don't know what "dangling set of apps" you mean that can't be converted, especially in the context of "How much would it cost to add IPv6 support?" >> In another message on this thread I noted that small ISPs are squeezed >> between CPE and IPv4 purchases. They can't get CPE that supports IPv6, >> or that supports MAP or 464xlat, because they don't buy enough, so >> they have to pay to buy addresses. > They can't get cheap CPE that has those features. ALL that code runs > great in openwrt. > > And ipv4 addresses are needed until ipv6 hits 100% deployment. Fewer IPv4 addresses are needed in the context of MAP or 464xlat. >> That's easily solved by collective >> action: 100 small ISPs can get the features they want (at a better >> discount) than one acting alone. > Great. Is there an ISP association trying to do that already? Not that I know of. If there's interest, I'll support, maybe organize. Lee

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