February 2002 - ipv6-wg - mailman.ripe.net

Re: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Global Policy
by Gert Doering 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

Hi, On Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 04:52:50PM -0800, CJ Wittbrodt wrote: > [ utilization as criteria ] > > Maybe we should look at the people you refer to as wanting to be "in" > and figure out what distinguishes them from just some end user who > should have a /48 from their upstream...? One of thereally problematic ones are research networks that serve a number of universities. Like "50 universities". Each university is a site, and gets a /48. So this whole network has a need for about 50 /48s, and will never be able to meet the 776 /48s criteria in the last draft. On the other hand, the actual IP address usage will most likely be much higher than the average, due to /48s being given to LARGE sites. So using numbers of /48s as criteria will always be either "too high" or "too low to have an effect". I think one criteria that I would agree to is "some entity that gives /48s to other entities" (focussing on that aspect of an ISP/LIR). Now how to prove that? On the other hand, if someone really *wants* "PI" space, they can easily cheat against this rule (found a separate organization that will "assign /48s to the other company" and thus fulfills the criteria - or just claim "we're going to provide ISP services for our customers as well", which then accidentially never happens). Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 71770 (72395) SpaceNet AG Mail: netmaster(a)Space.Net Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Tel : +49-89-32356-0 80807 Muenchen Fax : +49-89-32356-299

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Re: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Global Policy
by CJ Wittbrodt 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

Gert Doering <gert(a)space.net> writes: > Yes. But then they need an upstream provider that is willing to announce > a single-homed customer /32 - which might just be much more expensive than > giving the end site a /48 of their space. Which I could imagine as a > way to let market regulate whether someone "needs" their own /32. Why? If it there was a significat effect of costs on prefix announcement, we wouldn't see the huge number of (pseudo-) PI prefixes in today's table. I don't see a technical difference between announcement of an IPv4 PI /24 and an IPv6 /32 which would imply a significant difference in costs. Thus you will get an upstream for your v6 /32 as easily as now do for your v4 /24. The proposal poses the interesting question of other conditions to becoming LIR apart from costs. Currently RIPE requires a minimum of imediately assigned address space. What if anyone wants to become LIR for IPv6 only? Was this discussed? Yes. If they want to come and get IPv6 only there is no minimum criteria. Only that you become an LIR. Others can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think so. Mirjam specifically talked about how they have a minimum requirement for IPv4 space, but in the beginning they didn't. The requirement now is because folks figured out the "I can get one and not be an ISP" thing. So if you pay your money and become a LIR you get a /32. That's what was proposed. I am sure there are minutes of the meeting by now. Nope, just looked they're not there yet. > "For a limited period (the first 2000 requests in each RIR > region was suggested) > allocate a /32 to ANY LIR requesting their IPv6 allocation > (subject to documentation of first IPv6 assignment) This is what was presented in the working group summary. I wrote it down verbatim off of the overheads. There was a promise of the documentation of the whole discussion. I am sure that's taking a while since it was quite lengthy. Sorry to ask since I wasn't at the meeting: What was said about larger allocation sizes than /32, e.g. for multinational ISPs for which a /32 does not provide sufficient space for reasonable aggregation? That was touched upon, but not really talked about in detail. Anne from APNIC brought it up as one of her concerns. Don't worry about not being at the meeting. The weather was cold and wet. :-) ---CJ

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Re: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Global Policy
by CJ Wittbrodt 06 Feb '02

06 Feb '02

Hi, On Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 02:25:46PM -0800, CJ Wittbrodt wrote: > It is a figure that is "large enough that nearly every active LIR today > can get an IPv6 allocation NOW" (having somewhat over 3000 LIRs in RIPE > land, of which some are not active any more, others have merged, and so > on), while at the other hand being small enough so that *if* this > turns out to be a mistake, it means "6000 'IPv6 swamp' prefixes in the > global routing table", and this is something the routers can handle. > > I just want to be clear. My understanding of what happened in the > meeting wasn't that each existing LIR could get one, but anyone who > became an LIR could get one. This means that existing LIRs can > indeed get one, but so can anyone who is willing to become an LIR. > That was my understanding. Yes, this is what was agreed upon. Every LIR, no matter whether old or new, could get a /32 by asking for it. I do not think that this will lead to a "land rush" on /32s (to answer that concern en passant). Why should it? What's the benefit for an end site? It gives them a provider block that won't be filtered. If they're multihomed this is a benefit. Most of the companies that want to be "independent" will find one way or the other to achieve this - either by announcing /48s all over the region and possibly the world, or by opening a LIR, or by claiming they want to be soooo multihomed (and maybe setting up a peering with some other "independent" company to prove it). We have to be able to solve *this* - teach 'em that BGP multihoming with "PI" space is just one of many solutions, and develop more attractive solutions - instead of hindering IPv6 progress any further. Why would they justify or claim anything? They can just become an LIR with no justification and get a /32. ---CJ

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Re: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Global Policy
by Gert Doering 06 Feb '02

06 Feb '02

Hi, On Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 02:25:46PM -0800, CJ Wittbrodt wrote: > It is a figure that is "large enough that nearly every active LIR today > can get an IPv6 allocation NOW" (having somewhat over 3000 LIRs in RIPE > land, of which some are not active any more, others have merged, and so > on), while at the other hand being small enough so that *if* this > turns out to be a mistake, it means "6000 'IPv6 swamp' prefixes in the > global routing table", and this is something the routers can handle. > > I just want to be clear. My understanding of what happened in the > meeting wasn't that each existing LIR could get one, but anyone who > became an LIR could get one. This means that existing LIRs can > indeed get one, but so can anyone who is willing to become an LIR. > That was my understanding. Yes, this is what was agreed upon. Every LIR, no matter whether old or new, could get a /32 by asking for it. I do not think that this will lead to a "land rush" on /32s (to answer that concern en passant). Why should it? What's the benefit for an end site? Most of the companies that want to be "independent" will find one way or the other to achieve this - either by announcing /48s all over the region and possibly the world, or by opening a LIR, or by claiming they want to be soooo multihomed (and maybe setting up a peering with some other "independent" company to prove it). We have to be able to solve *this* - teach 'em that BGP multihoming with "PI" space is just one of many solutions, and develop more attractive solutions - instead of hindering IPv6 progress any further. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 71770 (72395) SpaceNet AG Mail: netmaster(a)Space.Net Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Tel : +49-89-32356-0 80807 Muenchen Fax : +49-89-32356-299

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Re: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Global Policy
by CJ Wittbrodt 06 Feb '02

06 Feb '02

From: Gert Doering <gert(a)Space.Net> Subject: Re: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Global Policy Hi, On Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 05:17:41PM +0000, Carlos Friacas wrote: > The following are some of my personal views about it... > > I agree with almost all of Gert's views on this, my only doubt goes to > the "2000 figure". Isnt it a bit small? Why not look at the actual routing > table, and project things a bit further? Why not multiply it by 5 or 6? The figure was not chosen in any highly scientific way. It is a figure that is "large enough that nearly every active LIR today can get an IPv6 allocation NOW" (having somewhat over 3000 LIRs in RIPE land, of which some are not active any more, others have merged, and so on), while at the other hand being small enough so that *if* this turns out to be a mistake, it means "6000 'IPv6 swamp' prefixes in the global routing table", and this is something the routers can handle. I just want to be clear. My understanding of what happened in the meeting wasn't that each existing LIR could get one, but anyone who became an LIR could get one. This means that existing LIRs can indeed get one, but so can anyone who is willing to become an LIR. That was my understanding. ---CJ

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Re: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Global Policy
by CJ Wittbrodt 06 Feb '02

06 Feb '02

Thomas, Comments are below: From: Thomas Narten <narten(a)us.ibm.com> Subject: Re: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment >>Global Policy I wasn't at the RIPE meeting, but I do have at least one big concern based on what I heard. > To be precise, I proposed the following: > - any LIR that is established (has done all the paperwork, paid their > fees, and whatnot) and can document the need for one IPv6 address > can get a /32. No further justification required. Does this mean end sites, those that are not transit providers become eligible for a /32? In other words, what is to prevent a land grab on what will largely be perceived as PI IPv6 address blocks? (I heard from someone who was at the meeting that the answer was a clear yes, end sites will be eligible.) I think we would be sending entirely the wrong message if end sites are able to get /32s. I was at the RIPE meeting. The consensus was that anyone willing to become an LIR and pay the fees could get a /32. Certainly within RIPE there are requirements for becoming an LIR, but I don't believe those requirements distinguish between being and end site or whatever. We certainly discussed this at the meeting. There is nothing to prevent an end user from becoming an LIR and getting a /32. Note also that my main concern has much less to do with utilization or how much address space we have (we do have a lot). It has much more to do with having registry policies that are supportive of aggregation of routing information in the long term. This will only happen if most end sites get address space from their providers. Allowing end sites to get big allocations now, will cause nothing but problems later. It risks replaying some of the bad history of IPv4. That's right. > - to avoid a horrible mistake, every region is permitted to allow only > assigment of 2000 /32s per region. So the maximum wastage is 6000 > /32s (out of 500 million /32s in the 1/8th of the space we're talking > about), and 6000 additional routes. > After that, we're going to reconsider policy. And once we have 6000 such /32s allocated, then what? We replay the haves vs. the have nots? Won't there be a lot of pressure then to continue giving out /32s freely, since current router technology supports more than 6K routes, etc.? What makes you think we'll be able to put in more conservative policies at this point? This is definitely an issue. One that folks at the meeting didn't want to hear > - why are we putting criteria there? To keep out "some that we do not > want". Conservation is not an issue. Routing table growth might > be influenced by this, or might be not, we don't know. Having RIR policies that make it harder to have good aggregatability of routes should not be done rashly. It is far easier to take steps now that limit potential problems, than try to reverse poor decisions after the fact. Yup. > - do we want major national research networks connecting something like > "50 universities"? YES So, can we come up with alternate criteria that support giving /32s to such entities that doesn't also allow just anyone to get a /32? This desire seems reasonable to me. But the proposed solution seems to gone way beyond what was needed, and has some real down sides. That was attempted to be proposed. I'd like to see this group come up with something more than just pay the fee and get a block. A portable no aggregatable block. Further, the way blocks are being handed out now they aren't geographically aggregatable either. So each registry just peels off the next block. There aren't blocks per registry. > Who are the ones that we want to keep out anyway? Why? To achieve what? End sites. If every end site gets its own /32, we will have another routing disaster. So much for IPv6 learning from the IPv4 experience. Well the argument is that they'll never come back for more. This means (believe me this isn't my argument) that the routing table should be smaller because everyone will only have one prefix. There are only as many multi-homed sites as there are ASNs, right? Anyway, this is an argument that I have heard proposed. Please remember it isn't my argument. ----CJ

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Re: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Global Policy
by Thomas Narten 06 Feb '02

06 Feb '02

I wasn't at the RIPE meeting, but I do have at least one big concern based on what I heard. > To be precise, I proposed the following: > - any LIR that is established (has done all the paperwork, paid their > fees, and whatnot) and can document the need for one IPv6 address > can get a /32. No further justification required. Does this mean end sites, those that are not transit providers become eligible for a /32? In other words, what is to prevent a land grab on what will largely be perceived as PI IPv6 address blocks? (I heard from someone who was at the meeting that the answer was a clear yes, end sites will be eligible.) I think we would be sending entirely the wrong message if end sites are able to get /32s. Note also that my main concern has much less to do with utilization or how much address space we have (we do have a lot). It has much more to do with having registry policies that are supportive of aggregation of routing information in the long term. This will only happen if most end sites get address space from their providers. Allowing end sites to get big allocations now, will cause nothing but problems later. It risks replaying some of the bad history of IPv4. > - to avoid a horrible mistake, every region is permitted to allow only > assigment of 2000 /32s per region. So the maximum wastage is 6000 > /32s (out of 500 million /32s in the 1/8th of the space we're talking > about), and 6000 additional routes. > After that, we're going to reconsider policy. And once we have 6000 such /32s allocated, then what? We replay the haves vs. the have nots? Won't there be a lot of pressure then to continue giving out /32s freely, since current router technology supports more than 6K routes, etc.? What makes you think we'll be able to put in more conservative policies at this point? > - why are we putting criteria there? To keep out "some that we do not > want". Conservation is not an issue. Routing table growth might > be influenced by this, or might be not, we don't know. Having RIR policies that make it harder to have good aggregatability of routes should not be done rashly. It is far easier to take steps now that limit potential problems, than try to reverse poor decisions after the fact. > - do we want major national research networks connecting something like > "50 universities"? YES So, can we come up with alternate criteria that support giving /32s to such entities that doesn't also allow just anyone to get a /32? This desire seems reasonable to me. But the proposed solution seems to gone way beyond what was needed, and has some real down sides. > Who are the ones that we want to keep out anyway? Why? To achieve what? End sites. If every end site gets its own /32, we will have another routing disaster. So much for IPv6 learning from the IPv4 experience. Thomas

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BOUNCE global-v6@lists.apnic.net: Non-member submission from [David Kessens <david@iprg.nokia.com>] Admin request of type /\bsubscribe\b/i at line 9
by owner-global-v6＠lists.apnic.net 06 Feb '02

06 Feb '02

Return-Path: <anne(a)apnic.net> Received: from cumin.apnic.net (cumin.apnic.net [202.12.29.59]) by data.staff.apnic.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g16J3PX13501 for <global-v6(a)lists.apnic.net>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:03:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by cumin.apnic.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g16J0XKa030195 for <global-v6(a)lists.apnic.net>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:00:34 +1000 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id LAA00250; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id g16J5ae26718; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:05:36 -0800 X-mProtect: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:05:36 -0800 Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from david.iprg.nokia.com (4.22.78.79, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd6B5WaC; Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:05:34 PST Received: (from david@localhost) by iprg.nokia.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g16J7d327077; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:07:39 -0800 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:07:39 -0800 From: David Kessens <david(a)iprg.nokia.com> To: global-v6(a)lists.apnic.net, ipv6-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: crossposting to multiple lists Message-ID: <20020206110738.D26988(a)iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.1 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Just a short request: It would be appreciated if global ipv6 policies are being discussed on the global policy list only. Please don't CC the RIPE ipv6 working group maillist. A reminder to the people on the RIPE ipv6 wg maillist: if you want to take part in the global policy discussions, please subscribe to the global policy maillist (global-v6-request(a)lists.apnic.net) if you haven't done so already. Thanks :-), David K. ---

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RE: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Global Policy
by Gordon.Lennox＠cec.eu.int 06 Feb '02

06 Feb '02

My apologies. I sometimes I think I need a sig-block!<g> I was at the meeting too, on the Friday afternoon. I am a frequent attendee at RIPE and I have participated in several meetings of the "informal group", or to give it perhaps its full title "Internet: informal working group", here in Brussels. I was just trying to clear up a possible misunderstanding, to avoid a lot of people looking for the "European Government Advisory Council". You would be surprised how often people call here asking strange questions!<g> Kind regards, Gordon Lennox Internet-related Services Directorate: Communications Services - Policy and Regulatory Framework Directorate-General: Information Society European Commission -----Original Message----- From: packetgrrl(a)palm.com [mailto:packetgrrl@palm.com] Sent: 06 February 2002 18:37 To: LENNOX Gordon (INFSO); cjw(a)groovy.com; gert(a)Space.Net Cc: narten(a)us.ibm.com; stuart.prevost(a)btinternet.com; global-v6(a)lists.apnic.net; ipv6-wg(a)ripe.net Subject: RE: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Global Policy Gordon Call it whatever you want. I was at a meeting with them. The ASO address council (I am a member) met with them. I was just referring to the group as the other folks did. Anyway based on the mtg I was at, it is very clear they are expecting global policy -- CJ --- This email was sent from my Palm(TM) i705 handheld (www.palm.com)

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RE: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Global Policy
by packetgrrl＠palm.com 06 Feb '02

06 Feb '02

Gordon Call it whatever you want. I was at a meeting with them. The ASO address council (I am a member) met with them. I was just referring to the group as the other folks did. Anyway based on the mtg I was at, it is very clear they are expecting global policy -- CJ --- This email was sent from my Palm(TM) i705 handheld (www.palm.com) Gordon.Lennox(a)cec.eu.int wrote: __________ >"European Government Advisory Council"? I don't think that such a thing >exists. > >There was a meeting with the so-called "informal group" - a group of EU >Member State officials with an interest in Internet matters - on the Friday >of the RIPE meeting. They then met with a number of people from RIPE NCC, >ICANN, ARIN, APNIC, IETF, etc.. on the Friday afternoon. > >The confusion may come from the fact that some of the participants in the >"informal gropup" also participate in the GAC, the ICANN Government Advisory >Committee (see http://www.icann.org/committees/gac/) > >Gordon Lennox > >-----Original Message----- >From: CJ Wittbrodt [mailto:cjw@groovy.com] >Sent: 05 February 2002 23:55 >To: Gert Doering >Cc: Thomas Narten; Stuart Prevost; global-v6(a)lists.apnic.net; >ipv6-wg(a)ripe.net >Subject: Re: [GLOBAL-V6] New draft available: IPv6 Address Allocation >and Assignment Global Policy > > > >Since the events of the recent RIPE working group meeting have not >been discussed at either of the other regional policy forums, >proposing something here may be somewhat premature. I do not believe, >although things never cease to amaze me, that this will reach any sort >of consensus within the ARIN region. I am not sure about the APNIC >region. Based on some meetings with the European Government >Advisory Council (just after the RIPE meeting) it is clear that it is >important that we have a global policy. Is there maybe some way >that we could come up with a compromise that would reach consensus >in all three policy forums? Something other than requiring no >justification for a /32? > >Thanks >---CJ Wittbrodt > >/snip..... >

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